Originally posted by Arglebargle

Originally posted by Kiljaedenas

Originally posted by Caliburn101

It should really be entirely obvious that full looting PvP is entirely incompatible with a truly successful MMO without a heavy-hitting and emminently workable consequences system.

Until that is invented - full loot MMOs will always be small-beer and popular only with the ganking crowd and/or niche gamers, and thus not attractive to game companies looking to actually make some serious profit.

Have you played Eve Online? It definitely has the consequences system.

As for my view on PvP, if done well I like it. The biggest issue though is that in most cases it isn't done well (in fact it sucks so much ass it needs special mouthwash to clean out the smell of shit), such as pretty much every themepark in existence. Those open PvP servers really are gank-fests with high level players blasting low level players out of existence, and since with that much level difference a whole squad of low level players wouldn't be able to  make a dent in the high level one even if he sat there with his thumb up his ass it really has no point.

Honestly the only MMO I've seen where I really like the PvP (and actively engage in it, including a couple of weeks ago :) ) is Eve. In there, a squad of week old players in the wimpiest little frigates you could find could in a matter of minutes drop a several-year veteran in a battleship with the strongest equipment in existence on it, as long as the proper tactics and preparations are used. I've seen a squad of guys in the free rookie frigates do just that. This frigate PvP is how I started winning PvP in Eve, though I had an excellent teacher who I still fly with today.

I don't personally care for Eve, but your point is pretty accurate. 

I am holding out high hope for World of Darkness, as the dev team has had all that experiance, and the usual type of game asshats seem perfect for the Sabat anyway.   It somehow just seems appropriate to the story and environment.

WoD is squared in my sights too, CCP has proved that despite occasional hiccups here and there, they really know what they're doing when it comes to making and supporting an MMO.

Originally posted by maccarthur200

however, the pvp is so more complex and fun than pve...

For you. You still haven't wrapped your head around that part yet.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by maccarthur200

however, the pvp is so more complex and fun than pve...

For you. You still haven't wrapped your head around that part yet.

Quote the full sentence please. My quoted post and that big one that opened that sequence of quotes explain everything.

As YOU said, pve isn't made by killing mobs for fun, but killing mobs to obtain things, and my quoted phrase refers to the fight itself excluding the rewards.

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by maccarthur200

however, the pvp is so more complex and fun than pve...

For you. You still haven't wrapped your head around that part yet.

Quote the full sentence please. My quoted post and that big one that opened that sequence of quotes explain everything.

As YOU said, pve isn't made by killing mobs for fun, but killing mobs to obtain things, and my quoted phrase refers to the fight itself excluding the rewards.

Your command of the English language seems to miraculously improve for certain posts. ;)

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by maccarthur200

however, the pvp is so more complex and fun than pve...

For you. You still haven't wrapped your head around that part yet.

Quote the full sentence please. My quoted post and that big one that opened that sequence of quotes explain everything.

As YOU said, pve isn't made by killing mobs for fun, but killing mobs to obtain things, and my quoted phrase refers to the fight itself excluding the rewards.

Your command of the English language seems to miraculously improve for certain posts. ;)

 

Do you mean something with this or are just praising? :D

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

As YOU said, pve isn't made by killing mobs for fun, but killing mobs to obtain things, and my quoted phrase refers to the fight itself excluding the rewards.

 

 

I think killing mobs, just for the sake of killing mobs, is very fun.  That's half the reason people play shooters, just to kill things.  They rarely ever get something special for each mob they kill, it's the joy of mowing down enemies that they want, not the rewards that they get for doing so.

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Originally posted by Caliburn101

The fact is, PvP players fall roughly into two camps (and yes, I know many bridge it too) - the ones who enjoy the challenge and playstyle, and the ones who get a buzz from one-sided encounters, ganking and endless insults afterwards - the kinds of people who will try their hardest to utterly ruin the online experience of other people and then wail endlessly if any controls are put in place - guards, consequence systems, flags etc.

The OP does seem to empathise with the latter type of player. Seriously thinking that a desire to avoid the 'borstal playground' bahaviour of such PvP players is an issue of 'fear' is clearly ridiculous. To think it is a factor is more of an indication of the mindset of the person asking the question than it will ever be of those refered to.

 

You are completely wrong. Read my others posts and see for yourself if i like gankers or no. In one of these posts, i advocate a system where a high lv player has your lv automaticaly decreased when entering a lower lv zone.

 

 

Then you claim to fall squarely into the first of my definitions - 'the ones who enjoy the challenge and playstyle'?

You now appear to be contradicting your own thread title - perhaps you might want to change it now - to something less bias and dismissive perhaps?

It would seem to me that you have changed the tune somewhat after considering that you look a little extreme in your original point of view.

... but that of course is my opinion. It is possible you didn't intend to come off as the latter type of PvP'er - might I suggest less perjorative statements in future - labels on boxes are the shorthand of internet communication - and you appeared to be firmly squared away in Box B...

If PVP is part of the game out of the box I can't understand why people whine and complain. You paid for the game and a subscription to put yourself through pain.

I can understand if people get upset of a few years down the road the company makes changes to the game and adds PVP. If so you can stop paying them, no one is forcing anyone to play these games.

The fact is, PvP players fall roughly into two camps (and yes, I know many bridge it too) - the ones who enjoy the challenge and playstyle, and the ones who get a buzz from one-sided encounters, ganking and endless insults afterwards - the kinds of people who will try their hardest to utterly ruin the online experience of other people and then wail endlessly if any controls are put in place - guards, consequence systems, flags etc.

The OP does seem to empathise with the latter type of player. Seriously thinking that a desire to avoid the 'borstal playground' bahaviour of such PvP players is an issue of 'fear' is clearly ridiculous. To think it is a factor is more of an indication of the mindset of the person asking the question than it will ever be of those refered to.

Great point and I agree. One game in particular - Darkfall Online - was brutal with this type of player. PVP to these online cretins is all about griefing and ruining another player's time and the full corpse looting helped to REALLY bring out the best in these asshats.

Darkfall is re-releasing their game and for very good reason: players would quit very shortly after starting because of roving bands of skilled up players that could beat even geared players - NAKED. Yep...I had been playing for 3 months solid....not casually mind you but hardcore and even geared up I still didn't have a chance against a naked griefer. 

The tipping point for me was when a member of my own faction debuffed me while I was fighting a mob just outside of a town - waited for me to die and then looted my corpse. Then he laughed and taunted me and the best part is: he received no penalty for this action because debuffing was not considered an offense against a same faction player.

Now - I don't "fear" PVP - I love it and I know ganking is part of PVP but when it consists of players not looking for compeitive play and their only goal is to grief players - PVP ceases to be fun. For example - when I would see a much lower level player than myself - I'd just go about my way since there's no contest but griefers go OUT OF THEIR WAY to kill lower level players. It's safe for them and they feel powerful but just like bullies in real life they're just cowards.

I can agree that the worst of the worst within the pvp community always reside in optional and zero risk pvp games like WOW, SWTOR or GW2.  Theres no risk to running your mouth ect, you can always leave the battleground and if you die its no big deal.

Play a game like EvE/Perpetuum/Darkfall where your stuff goes boom or gets looted, where getting the wrong people mad can result in guilds farming you ect...tends to make the kids rage quit.

I think the ultimate factor in the PVE "only" crowd is that they want everything to be absolutely perfict before pvping.  These are the people in themeparks you ask to duel, agree, take 15 min preparing what should be a quick match, lose, then come back to you 30min later stating they are actually now ready to fight.

Bottom line is these people want a near guranteed victory before agreeing to pvp.  For some reason losing is a huge deal.  This is why they stick to pve mobs, predictible and easy to kill.

Also, i see the common anit-pvp players fantasy dream of games like DF....MINDLESS griefing, FORCED pvp, KIDS harassing,  GANK FEST!!! NIGHT MARE SCENARIOS AHHHH!!!!!!   Reality is these guys dont play pvp games let alone full loot or FFA games, and the ones they probably have played were f2p cash shop games that really were full of kids griefing due to lack of mechanics.

The truth behind most full loot games is that its a needed mechanic, loss of gear, to feed pve/crafing/resourcing.  The gear that is lost isnt your WOW raid gear that took you a month to get up to the ability to start grinding each tier though months of loot rolls on what you need over and over and over untill you get you final set of purples.  Its nothing like that.

Think, you mine for 10 min, bank, chop wood for 10min, bank, farm a few specific mobs for drops, bank.  Refine raw mats, combine with tool, make 10 sets of gear.   Hell in DF people were giving noobs gear they had so much, which leads you to believe that there wasnt enough FFA pvp.

To top it all off, good pvpers typically flock to games with high risk pvp, good pvpers are not interested in pvping that noobs standing facing a tree most likely with the tutorial help fire open.  Even less interested in the horrid gear you probably posses.

To sum it up i feel that this anti-pvp crowd likes it easy and victories guranteed, and are not scared of pvp just cannot handle a situation that is difficult, unpredictable, and where they havent done a 30min prep for whatever reason before pvping.  If its not easy to succeed its not fun to them.  On top of that they view ffa full loot games though fantasy blinders where they have convinced themselves how the game plays exactly without ever setting foot in the game. 

Originally posted by Briansho

If PVP is part of the game out of the box I can't understand why people whine and complain. You paid for the game and a subscription to put yourself through pain.

I can understand if people get upset of a few years down the road the company makes changes to the game and adds PVP. If so you can stop paying them, no one is forcing anyone to play these games.

You are correct.  The problem here is that the OP is wondering what is wrong with people who don't like PvP.  It gets brought up all the time and serves for entertainment here I guess.

PvP doesn't scare me. You want to know what scares me? Trying to get a one armed man to use a ladder to get across an alley in The Walking Dead. You know what else scares me? Those things in Amnesia: The Dark Descent. You know what else scares me? Being robbed at gun point (true story). Even scarier was a doctor telling me to keep a hand on my child's chest to make sure she was still breathing while he stitched up her eye (another true story). Those things are scary. PvP? Not so much.

That doesn't mean that I want to spend my time in an open world PvP game. I prefer team based PvP, whether it's in a PvP zone, a game based around team based PvP or an instanced PvP battleground. I don't have that much interest in dueling, especially with people who will only duel me when they know they can win.

Pvp is really not for me.

I feel bad killing someone behind their backs but if I want to fight I can enter some pvp zone or battleground but don't force it on me everywhere or I'll say goodbye.

Doesn't mean I'm scared or anything like that, simply I'm a gentle guy who doesn't find joy in ruining other people time and I expect the same done to me unless you are in some battleground or pvp/war zone.

Originally posted by Crunchy222

I can agree that the worst of the worst within the pvp community always reside in optional and zero risk pvp games like WOW, SWTOR or GW2.  Theres no risk to running your mouth ect, you can always leave the battleground and if you die its no big deal.

Play a game like EvE/Perpetuum/Darkfall where your stuff goes boom or gets looted, where getting the wrong people mad can result in guilds farming you ect...tends to make the kids rage quit.

 

I think the ultimate factor in the PVE "only" crowd is that they want everything to be absolutely perfict before pvping.  These are the people in themeparks you ask to duel, agree, take 15 min preparing what should be a quick match, lose, then come back to you 30min later stating they are actually now ready to fight.

Bottom line is these people want a near guranteed victory before agreeing to pvp.  For some reason losing is a huge deal.  This is why they stick to pve mobs, predictible and easy to kill.

 

Also, i see the common anit-pvp players fantasy dream of games like DF....MINDLESS griefing, FORCED pvp, KIDS harassing,  GANK FEST!!! NIGHT MARE SCENARIOS AHHHH!!!!!!   Reality is these guys dont play pvp games let alone full loot or FFA games, and the ones they probably have played were f2p cash shop games that really were full of kids griefing due to lack of mechanics.

The truth behind most full loot games is that its a needed mechanic, loss of gear, to feed pve/crafing/resourcing.  The gear that is lost isnt your WOW raid gear that took you a month to get up to the ability to start grinding each tier though months of loot rolls on what you need over and over and over untill you get you final set of purples.  Its nothing like that.

Think, you mine for 10 min, bank, chop wood for 10min, bank, farm a few specific mobs for drops, bank.  Refine raw mats, combine with tool, make 10 sets of gear.   Hell in DF people were giving noobs gear they had so much, which leads you to believe that there wasnt enough FFA pvp.

To top it all off, good pvpers typically flock to games with high risk pvp, good pvpers are not interested in pvping that noobs standing facing a tree most likely with the tutorial help fire open.  Even less interested in the horrid gear you probably posses.

 

 

To sum it up i feel that this anti-pvp crowd likes it easy and victories guranteed, and are not scared of pvp just cannot handle a situation that is difficult, unpredictable, and where they havent done a 30min prep for whatever reason before pvping.  If its not easy to succeed its not fun to them.  On top of that they view ffa full loot games though fantasy blinders where they have convinced themselves how the game plays exactly without ever setting foot in the game. 

FFA loot doesn't help drive an economy.  Destruction of goods, such as when a space ship blows up in EVE, is what drives economy.  Stuff that is being created from thin air (mob drop and gathered mats) needs to go poof into thin air somehow.

That being said, I'm pretty sure that a very small percentage of players ever completed the hardest WoW raids as they were released.  The 'hard mode' raids were really quite difficult.  It took outstanding knowledge of your character, min/maxing, research of mechanics, and flawless execution of strategy on a large scale.  Most PvP encounters are fairly predictable, especially to good players.  They know what the enemy is going to use, what they will counter with, what the enemy will counter them with, etc.  The only thing that is somewhat unpredictable is when each sequence of events plays out within the fight. 

Point is, PvP can be fun to some people, sometimes challenging, sometimes not.  PvE can be fun to some people, sometime challenging, sometimes not.  They are different games.  They fulfill different types of entertainment.  Both can be equally entertaining but in different ways.

Originally posted by Rayshe

 

I agree more on the lines of the Virtual World side of the arguement. however i also see that having a living Virtual world is ruined almost everytime by the same type of people. a virtural world taken about half seriously to seriously can be fun, however you will have a large group of people who dont want to do this. The CoD age of gaming is full of gamers that say "i have a sword who can i put it in" FOM fell to this idea, Now that we have a HUGE casual following of gamers in the MMORPG genre (something UO and other Virtual Worlds didn't have to contend with) we get stuck with people who thinks Virtual World means, Open world Grand Theft Auto. We can all agree that this idea is not fun, try having a political discussion when somone randomly runs up behind both of you Shoots you tea bags and then spams your mailbox with "I PWN JUUU"

 

In short, Virtual worlds. Great Idea, Great in Practice, Ruined by New Age MMO Community.

The word "Ruined" assigns blame. I would say a game that does not design with realistic player behavior in mind is a failure in design.

We are what we are. There are always people enjoy ruining some other people's day. That is just human nature. A game with massive number of players, statistically, will have this kind of players.

A virtual world allowing all sort of interactions is not taken this human nature proper into account. A entertainment product needs to be fun for at least a majority of its player. If a small group can ruin others' fun in a significnat manner, no matter how it is done, the product fails.

I like PVP, what I don't like about PVP community is that they always pray on easy targets, to feel spacial I guess, that make's me sad, seams they never have courage to contest real opponents, and if they loose, then prapare for accusations.

Not all of PVP players are like that many are willing to help and are nice.

I also like to PVP when I want to, don't like to be forced.