Originally posted by TalulaRose

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Rayshe
I do personally feel that TSW does have depth in combat. That may actually be the reason people keep saying they don't like the combat. Depth and Simplicity rarely go hand and hand.

Complexity for its own sake shouldn't be the measure of depth.  And the thread isn't really about TSW combat, but about GW2 combat.  If GW2 doesn't have deep combat why?  If TSW has deep combat and could be contrasted to GW2 then specifically why?  I realize not many people want to talk about TSW anymore, but open a thread about how that combat is so deep if you want to just talk about it.

Start reading. No point to repost.

Actually post some reasons.  Compare and contrast.  No sense in reading the same non-reasons over and over again.  [mod edit]

Originally posted by TalulaRose

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by TalulaRose

TSW has dodge and by moving you reduce damage by 30%.

Or you can create a build to leech health through damage so you don't have to move around on those days you are feeling lazy.

Or you can sacrifice damge and stack movement hindering actives and passives along with abilities that crerate distance to slowly pick at the mobs health....until you run into those nightmare mobs who are immune...and then its back to the drawing board to put together a build to deal with them.

Honestly, that doesn't seem much different then gw2... just on a bigger scale.

lol....you just don't want to admit that TSW offers alot more when it comes to how you approach combat than GW2.

Oh yeah, GW2 doesn't have food that heals on critical hits or anything.

And if TSW passive skills count as skills so do GW2 traits (60 major and 15 minor per profession, 480+120 total).

So yeah, in GW2 you can create a build that sacrifices defense for damage and critical change and then use food that heals on crit, or create a build that allows you to dodge more often or sacrifice damage so you can stay there blocking and have to move less.

Originally posted by muffins89
it's percieved depth.  gw2 combat is pretty shallow.  aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat.  with movement.  oh,  and dodge. 

What are you implying? That "themepark" MMOs don't have any depth in their combat? Please don't tell me that sandboxes have more depth! 

@OP, I like the combat in Guild Wars 2. But as someone who has spent 1-3k on GW1, I can definitely say that GW2 has less depth to it. This doesn't mean it is shallow. It just means that GW1 had incredible customisation. No other MMO has such customisation as GW1. It's beyond me why ArenaNet decided to reduce the number of skills and make the skills bound to a weapon. I find it so annoying that my first 5 skills are chosen for me and I can only choose utility skills. They even impose limitations on how you chose your second 5 skills. You always need to have 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1  elite. Did I say that you only have a handful of elite skills? GW1 had 1500+ skills among 10 classes which works out between 100-150 per class. It was incredible variety.

Originally posted by muffins89
it's percieved depth.  gw2 combat is pretty shallow.  aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat.  with movement.  oh,  and dodge. 

That would be where you are 100% wrong.

If your good enough and smart enough you can tackle enemies much stronger then you are.

Originally posted by Mardukk

I really like GW2's combat and it is definitely the highlight of the game.  I figured that things would get even more difficult as I leveled up but I'm finding it actually getting easier (max toon is 65 at this time).  I'm at the point now that I don't even have to dodge much anymore if it's only one or two mobs.  Hell, I can watch TV and click skills if I'm feeling lazy.  This is all PvE talk of course.

Probably the most unique thing GW2 brought to the genre are combo fields.  I think the combo fields are a bit of brilliance that really add a great deal to combat.

 

I just wish there was more to the game other than combat.  

Sadly this is true. With max gear and all traits the game become way to easy, even dungeons, which are suppose to be hard...

Hard Mode is needed!!!

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by TalulaRose

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by TalulaRose

TSW has dodge and by moving you reduce damage by 30%.

Or you can create a build to leech health through damage so you don't have to move around on those days you are feeling lazy.

Or you can sacrifice damge and stack movement hindering actives and passives along with abilities that crerate distance to slowly pick at the mobs health....until you run into those nightmare mobs who are immune...and then its back to the drawing board to put together a build to deal with them.

Honestly, that doesn't seem much different then gw2... just on a bigger scale.

lol....you just don't want to admit that TSW offers alot more when it comes to how you approach combat than GW2.

Oh yeah, GW2 doesn't have food that heals on critical hits or anything.

And if TSW passive skills count as skills so do GW2 traits (60 major and 15 minor per profession, 480+120 total).

So yeah, in GW2 you can create a build that sacrifices defense for damage and critical change and then use food that heals on crit, or create a build that allows you to dodge more often or sacrifice damage so you can stay there blocking and have to move less.

To be honest, when it comes to building a character for Combat, GW 2 and TSW are streets ahead of the competition in terms of meaningful choices and ability to create a concept you want to play...  I love them both for this reason.

Originally posted by Rayshe

Seems i came into this conversation far to late.

 

The way i will compare depth will be based off builds themselves. of course TSW will win because of customizeablility but its not my main focus.

 

The reason i prefer TSW is because set up correctly its almost like a chain of abilities going off.

My original Build was simply timing my blows correctly so that my biggest attacks were always going to autocrit. Worked quite well for me in fact until i got to the later nightmares. there is a passive that every 6th hit autocrits, I would mix that with something that boosts my crit chance upon crit, once i got my first crit off it would continue boosting it until its maxed. because of that i didnt put any points to Crit Chance only crit damage. Even if i wasnt critting regularly my auto crits still made my big hits spike my DPS meter. Then with Penetration since it happened more often i threw a little bit extra points into Pen chance and allowed it to build naturally with another passive.

Everything else just straight out boosted damage.

 

Can combat look like this in GW2?

Clearly you haven't played much GW2.
In fact not even most people in here talking about GW2 have reached the point where they are theorycrafting.

But for starters, most melee weapons #1 attack (and some ranged as well) is a skill chain with a special effect at the 3rd swing.

There are effects that trigger every x swings, like the guardian virtues.

Many classes can use dodges to generate effects, like the mesmer generating a clone that he can then use to do damage, heal for more,cause confusin, etc. warriors can use their burst skill to get endurance backthat allows them to dodge or they can save their adrenaline to deal more damage or higher critical chance based on their adrenaline level. Or the thief can use its steal ability to gain boons so he can deal more damage on their high damage attacks.

Elementalists and Engineers can change between attunments and weapon/kits to use their own combo fields. Elementalists can also get different effects from heal/utility skills based on their current attunement.

Warriors (and everyone else that has swap weapons via glyphs) can use swap to gain boons.

That are tons of skills that deal more damage/have a special effect if the target has a specific condion or is knocked/stunned/dazed.

I can go on and on and on.

Originally posted by fivoroth

Originally posted by muffins89
it's percieved depth.  gw2 combat is pretty shallow.  aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat.  with movement.  oh,  and dodge. 

What are you implying? That "themepark" MMOs don't have any depth in their combat? Please don't tell me that sandboxes have more depth! 

@OP, I like the combat in Guild Wars 2. But as someone who has spent 1-3k on GW1, I can definitely say that GW2 has less depth to it. This doesn't mean it is shallow. It just means that GW1 had incredible customisation. No other MMO has such customisation as GW1. It's beyond me why ArenaNet decided to reduce the number of skills and make the skills bound to a weapon. I find it so annoying that my first 5 skills are chosen for me and I can only choose utility skills. They even impose limitations on how you chose your second 5 skills. You always need to have 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1  elite. Did I say that you only have a handful of elite skills? GW1 had 1500+ skills among 10 classes which works out between 100-150 per class. It was incredible variety.

As someone that has spent close to 10K hours in GW1 I can tell you that from those 100-150 skills per profession only 10-20 per profession were actually any good outside some narrow farm build.

The number of skills in GW1 that are simply outclassed or so situational that you are better bringing a skill that is generally more useful is mind numbing.

The choice in GW1 was between having a good build or having bad builds.

GW1 give a better illusion of freedom and variety than GW2, I'll give you that.

Example: GW1 Warrior in PvE (one of the professions that have the highest amount of viable builds).

Start by adding the sunspear warrior skill whirlwind attack. Add the kurzick/luxon warrior skill "Save Yourselves!". Get "For Great Justice!".

Axe - Why the hell are you using axe in PvE?

Hammer - Elite: Earth Shaker. No point using any other hammer elite. Then you either use Crushing Blow or Pulverizing Smash. Finish with Crude Swing.

Sword: Dragon Slash and Hundred Blades are both usable. Add Sun and Moon Slash. Maybe add Body Blow (strength).

Tactics: useless outside some narrow build/farm.

Strength: Enraging Change and Flail are usable although the "Deldrimor  rank skill" "Drunken Master" or pure consumables are better options.

That is the PvE GW1 Warrior 150 skills reduced th a dozen skills.

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Rayshe

SNIP!

Clearly you haven't played much GW2.
In fact not even most people in here talking about GW2 have reached the point where they are theorycrafting.

But for starters, most melee weapons #1 attack (and some ranged as well) is a skill chain with a special effect at the 3rd swing.

There are effects that trigger every x swings, like the guardian virtues.

Many classes can use dodges to generate effects, like the mesmer generating a clone that he can then use to do damage, heal for more,cause confusin, etc. warriors can use their burst skill to get endurance backthat allows them to dodge or they can save their adrenaline to deal more damage or higher critical chance based on their adrenaline level. Or the thief can use its steal ability to gain boons so he can deal more damage on their high damage attacks.

Elementalists and Engineers can change between attunments and weapon/kits to use their own combo fields. Elementalists can also get different effects from heal/utility skills based on their current attunement.

Warriors (and everyone else that has swap weapons via glyphs) can use swap to gain boons.

That are tons of skills that deal more damage/have a special effect if the target has a specific condion or is knocked/stunned/dazed.

I can go on and on and on.

With this much customisation and more doesn't that infer depth? 

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Clearly you haven't played much GW2.
In fact not even most people in here talking about GW2 have reached the point where they are theorycrafting.

But for starters, most melee weapons #1 attack (and some ranged as well) is a skill chain with a special effect at the 3rd swing.

There are effects that trigger every x swings, like the guardian virtues.

Many classes can use dodges to generate effects, like the mesmer generating a clone that he can then use to do damage, heal for more,cause confusin, etc. warriors can use their burst skill to get endurance backthat allows them to dodge or they can save their adrenaline to deal more damage or higher critical chance based on their adrenaline level. Or the thief can use its steal ability to gain boons so he can deal more damage on their high damage attacks.

Elementalists and Engineers can change between attunments and weapon/kits to use their own combo fields. Elementalists can also get different effects from heal/utility skills based on their current attunement.

Warriors (and everyone else that has swap weapons via glyphs) can use swap to gain boons.

That are tons of skills that deal more damage/have a special effect if the target has a specific condion or is knocked/stunned/dazed.

I can go on and on and on.

You can go on and on, however it would be repetitive. No matter what spec  you play it will be a dps spec, the cc effects are marginal and merely exist to accent DPS which is what GW2 pvp is all about, layers of dps. The boredom factor sets in when you realize that you cannot make a functional healer, CC, Support build that is not really just a DPS build with some perks. You quickly find out after a few weeks of never ending theory crafting and searching other builds online, that you are confined to play, conditions, bunker, roamer or some other Crit heavy build.

Its basically like saying there are countless ways to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, it doesn't really mean you have options. In GW2 if you have a build that even uses another RUNE this is different from the other guy who also plays ranger, you feel like you won a small victory. Slave 48 hours theorty crafting your necromancer only to find out some guy named Clerk already came up with the exact same thing down to the armor and weapon sigils.  You of course tried vampirism early on to find out how terrible it was, or some other things that LOOKED really cool. But you ended up with this damn condition build you hate playing, you roll an alt, thinking things will be different with a Mesmer or thief, but no.

Combat feels empty and dull to me, GW2 pvp is not something people give up as a l2p issue its something that you stop doing because you don't hate yourself.  Just my opinion maybe, but I played a lot of mmorpgs, GW2 pvp combat is fine the first month or so until the lack of debth really sets in.

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by Eluldor

Originally posted by Mardukk

I really like GW2's combat and it is definitely the highlight of the game.  I figured that things would get even more difficult as I leveled up but I'm finding it actually getting easier (max toon is 65 at this time).  I'm at the point now that I don't even have to dodge much anymore if it's only one or two mobs.  Hell, I can watch TV and click skills if I'm feeling lazy.  This is all PvE talk of course.

Maybe if your max toon is 65 and playing in a lvl 40 zone or something. This is also dependent on class of course and all sorts of other factors. Definitely won't be feeling this way in Orr or the newer Karka zone :P On the other hand, one or two mobs has never been a challenge, 2 vets or 1 vet 4 mobs or 5-6 mobs is the challenge.

Originally posted by BadSpock

The combat in GW2 is a lot less faceroll and requires you to pay attention or suffer the consequences - but I wouldn't call that "depth."

There may be more to it on the surface, but I wouldn't call it depth...

Breadth?

I would define "depth" when it refers to combat in a MMO as: complex interactions that happen at multiple layers.

None of the interactions in GW2 are all that complex - most of the time they are fairly obvious, and in terms of layers it's really quite shallow.

Once you go outside the realm of solo play and get into group play is where GW2 - IMO - really falls apart.

Rather obvious - the term obvious depending greatly on the user, but all sorts of folks continue to evade combo fields :) and half as many still stand in one place and attack. Fight a champ giant, and for some reason multiple people will not get the dodge down, others go in and rez those folks and then they go down etc. And classes like Necro, that can transfer allies conditions to enemies are something folks who don't play that class seem to not know.

 

when compared to consoles... mmo's will always fall short in the combat department....but I feel like gw2 has come a long way in making combat more interactive and not point and click... some don't like it... but as a guy who wants to play mmo's when he retires for social interaction and mental stimulation... i find this to be overall better than the point and click method.. as someone said in another post.. after playing gw2 it makes it difficult to go back to the other types of mmo combat.

Originally posted by Faelsun

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Clearly you haven't played much GW2.
In fact not even most people in here talking about GW2 have reached the point where they are theorycrafting.

But for starters, most melee weapons #1 attack (and some ranged as well) is a skill chain with a special effect at the 3rd swing.

There are effects that trigger every x swings, like the guardian virtues.

Many classes can use dodges to generate effects, like the mesmer generating a clone that he can then use to do damage, heal for more,cause confusin, etc. warriors can use their burst skill to get endurance backthat allows them to dodge or they can save their adrenaline to deal more damage or higher critical chance based on their adrenaline level. Or the thief can use its steal ability to gain boons so he can deal more damage on their high damage attacks.

Elementalists and Engineers can change between attunments and weapon/kits to use their own combo fields. Elementalists can also get different effects from heal/utility skills based on their current attunement.

Warriors (and everyone else that has swap weapons via glyphs) can use swap to gain boons.

That are tons of skills that deal more damage/have a special effect if the target has a specific condion or is knocked/stunned/dazed.

I can go on and on and on.

You can go on and on, however it would be repetitive. No matter what spec  you play it will be a dps spec, the cc effects are marginal and merely exist to accent DPS which is what GW2 pvp is all about, layers of dps. The boredom factor sets in when you realize that you cannot make a functional healer, CC, Support build that is not really just a DPS build with some perks. You quickly find out after a few weeks of never ending theory crafting and searching other builds online, that you are confined to play, conditions, bunker, roamer or some other Crit heavy build.

 

Its basically like saying there are countless ways to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, it doesn't really mean you have options. In GW2 if you have a build that even uses another RUNE this is different from the other guy who also plays ranger, you feel like you won a small victory. Slave 48 hours theorty crafting your necromancer only to find out some guy named Clerk already came up with the exact same thing down to the armor and weapon sigils.  You of course tried vampirism early on to find out how terrible it was, or some other things that LOOKED really cool. But you ended up with this damn condition build you hate playing, you roll an alt, thinking things will be different with a Mesmer or thief, but no.

Combat feels empty and dull to me, GW2 pvp is not something people give up as a l2p issue its something that you stop doing because you don't hate yourself.  Just my opinion maybe, but I played a lot of mmorpgs, GW2 pvp combat is fine the first month or so until the lack of debth really sets in.

Opposed to the awesome PvP MMORPGs where you are CC'ed until you die or CC them until they die or the most healers win.

And fotm was a word specially coined for GW2, right?

In other games all the possible builds are equaly viable and succesful and you are a snowflake!

Healing, dealing damage, supporting and CCing in the same character is boring but spending an entire match/dungeon just healing, ccing, tanking or dealing damage is the pinnacle of diversity and variation.

Originally posted by muffins89
it's percieved depth.  gw2 combat is pretty shallow.  aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat.  with movement.  oh,  and dodge. 

After you added all the extras you pretty much have combat that has more depth than most MMOs. Only one I can think of off the top of my head with more depth would be Vanguard.

Pushing more buttons =/= depth.

Not as in depth as GW1 though, but that wasn't a MMO.

Originally posted by evilastro

Originally posted by muffins89
it's percieved depth.  gw2 combat is pretty shallow.  aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat.  with movement.  oh,  and dodge. 

After you added all the extras you pretty much have combat that has more depth than most MMOs. Only one I can think of off the top of my head with more depth would be Vanguard.

Pushing more buttons =/= depth.

Not as in depth as GW1 though, but that wasn't a MMO.

Originally posted by Faelsun

You can go on and on, however it would be repetitive. No matter what spec  you play it will be a dps spec, the cc effects are marginal and merely exist to accent DPS which is what GW2 pvp is all about, layers of dps. The boredom factor sets in when you realize that you cannot make a functional healer, CC, Support build that is not really just a DPS build with some perks. You quickly find out after a few weeks of never ending theory crafting and searching other builds online, that you are confined to play, conditions, bunker, roamer or some other Crit heavy build.

 

Its basically like saying there are countless ways to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, it doesn't really mean you have options. In GW2 if you have a build that even uses another RUNE this is different from the other guy who also plays ranger, you feel like you won a small victory. Slave 48 hours theorty crafting your necromancer only to find out some guy named Clerk already came up with the exact same thing down to the armor and weapon sigils.  You of course tried vampirism early on to find out how terrible it was, or some other things that LOOKED really cool. But you ended up with this damn condition build you hate playing, you roll an alt, thinking things will be different with a Mesmer or thief, but no.

Combat feels empty and dull to me, GW2 pvp is not something people give up as a l2p issue its something that you stop doing because you don't hate yourself.  Just my opinion maybe, but I played a lot of mmorpgs, GW2 pvp combat is fine the first month or so until the lack of debth really sets in.

As someone who is not a rabid fan of GW2 and am fairly reticent about the vertical gear progression issues, I would have to say that the thing that really attracts me to this game outside of exploring the awesome world the dev's built is the combat. The combat is deceptively simple, but in theory quite complex.

PvP is one thing, but PvE is another and I find that the non-dps effects can be very important especially while soloing. In groups, it is a mixed bag because it seems that dps still reigns over other effects.

Also, the game is yet young and I feel that ANet have nerfed the non-dps effects for some odd reason. If they ramped them up to the potency of GW1, I think we would be seeing that the game is actually not that shallow combat-wise. It is just that at the moment, dps is king and that is an issue that requires looking at quite closely in my opinion.

Originally posted by Rimmersman

Originally posted by evilastro

Originally posted by muffins89
it's percieved depth.  gw2 combat is pretty shallow.  aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat.  with movement.  oh,  and dodge. 

After you added all the extras you pretty much have combat that has more depth than most MMOs. Only one I can think of off the top of my head with more depth would be Vanguard.

Pushing more buttons =/= depth.

Not as in depth as GW1 though, but that wasn't a MMO.

 

Yeah Vanguard is vast , 16 classes with all of them having two or more stances. The shammy is three classes in one, let's face it everything about Vanguard trumps GW2 except graphics and the cities.

Is there any obscure or very small population MMORPG that doesn't trump GW2 in your opinion? :)

You know you dont need to bash everyone who comes to the MMORPG forums and says they are enjoying a game. Sometimes you can simply be pleased that they are having fun, rather than trying to pull the rug out from under them and bash them for daring to appreciate the product they bought.

This tends to be one of the reasons why people end up getting disheartened and leaving, and then those of you who bashed them can't work out why your server is now empty.

OP - glad your enjoying it, and your right, the combat is fun :)

Originally posted by Rimmersman

 

If your talking about point and click or action combat then Tera has GW2 beat. For some reason GW2 combat feels diconnected, you don't feel like you are actually connecting with the mobs. Tera is way more connected, moving and blocking and not getting hit is far more rewarding in Tera ,GW2 feels slow in comparrison. When it comes to builds the The Secret World whoops GW2 all day long, it's laughable to even think that GW2 has more combat options than TSW.

I play a mesmer. The point is to avoid having the mobs connect with me. Moving, dodging, sowing confusion amongst the enemy... quite rewarding in GW2. What's fun is being able to take on practically anyone in WvW (except thieves... still working on that...) and being able to walk away with a win, and if they reinforce I can use clones, invisibilities, etc. to escape while they stay behind attacking that which isn't there. I can't say about TSW and a comparison about the numbers of builds that are viable... but I remember in GW1 there were thousands, quite literally, of bulds you could use. The problem, though, was that of those many thousands relatively few were actually viable. It doesn't matter if you can have ten thousand potential builds if only twenty are actually viable. In GW2, by design, there are little to no non-viable builds. Every build can be used rather well so long as you match your playstyle to the build you create. Is that true in TSW? No idea. But quantity doesn't always equate to depth. Quality within the quantity is far more significant.

Originally posted by muffins89
it's percieved depth.  gw2 combat is pretty shallow.  aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat.  with movement.  oh,  and dodge. 

I agree.  It's not as "in depth" as it first appears, but that doesn't make it worse than any other MMO.

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Rimmersman

 

If your talking about point and click or action combat then Tera has GW2 beat. For some reason GW2 combat feels diconnected, you don't feel like you are actually connecting with the mobs. Tera is way more connected, moving and blocking and not getting hit is far more rewarding in Tera ,GW2 feels slow in comparrison. When it comes to builds the The Secret World whoops GW2 all day long, it's laughable to even think that GW2 has more combat options than TSW.

 

I play a mesmer. The point is to avoid having the mobs connect with me. Moving, dodging, sowing confusion amongst the enemy... quite rewarding in GW2. What's fun is being able to take on practically anyone in WvW (except thieves... still working on that...) and being able to walk away with a win, and if they reinforce I can use clones, invisibilities, etc. to escape while they stay behind attacking that which isn't there. I can't say about TSW and a comparison about the numbers of builds that are viable... but I remember in GW1 there were thousands, quite literally, of bulds you could use. The problem, though, was that of those many thousands relatively few were actually viable. It doesn't matter if you can have ten thousand potential builds if only twenty are actually viable. In GW2, by design, there are little to no non-viable builds. Every build can be used rather well so long as you match your playstyle to the build you create. Is that true in TSW? No idea. But quantity doesn't always equate to depth. Quality within the quantity is far more significant.

I've already reduced the GW1 Warrior hundred of skills to a dozen viable skills (viable as in not outclassed for general PvE).in this thread.

I've only play TSW during the free month but I'vent seen anything to prove TSW doesn't suffer the same problem (easy to get non viable builds and reduced number of viable builds).

And anyway you are also limited due to the fact you need a builder and a finisher, which leaves 3-4 open slos (most builders work for all the weapons, healing weapons generally require 1 builder for each).

Then you have the passives.

Passives are pretty much the equivalent to GW2 traits that you only max at level 60 once you reach the Grandmaster tier, but somehow for GW2 the character developement ends at level 30 or before, according to those that don't like the game.

The moment you choose your 2 weapons (or a role)  in TSW the number of skills you can choose from is extremely reduced.

And what is currently the best build for group healing? I remember that when I was playing Fist was the way to go for healing.

Again the biggest difference is that it is much easier to see what everyone should be doing and what failled with a tank-healer-dps game than it is to see in GW2.

The transition from open world play -> dungeon-> optimized dungeon run is bigger than in games running the holy trinity.

Going from open world to dungeon most GW2 players will notice they are dying much more often and they will start increasing their defenses (or rez zerging the dungeons and then raging in the forums that GW2 has no team work).

Then players will start discovering stacking might with combo fields, or stacking protection or armor of chaos is really good.

After that players will understand that dispite the fact there is no holy trinity a warrior is much better at dealing damage than a engineer and that guardians are much better at support than thieves.

So warrior players will drop defense for damage once again and rely on the support of classes better at supporting to stay alive and clear of conditions.