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Darkfall: Unholy Wars

Darkfall: Unholy Wars 

General Discussion  » Aventurine "gets it". I wish all MMO devs did.

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258 posts found
  corpusc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1366

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

12/04/12 1:56:04 PM#221
Originally posted by botrytis

People are also missing the idea, that an instance dungeon, is all for YOUR group. Not for others but for your group. All the drops, all the mobs, all the bosses. That is why in GW2, they instanced the dungeons. Wouldn't you hate going into an open dungeon hoping to get a drop from a particular boss and the boss is dead already and the spawn rate is slow - so your group has to camp there and wait.

 

 

on the contrary.  i LOVED running into other people serendipitously in the old school open world dungeons.

i did not come to MMOs to play a single player or small scale RPG.  i almost never play those kind of games.  like pretty much never.

i came to be part of a an alive, populated virtual world.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

12/04/12 2:38:57 PM#222
Botryis
Actually gw2 would have worked better with open dungeons rather than instances. The game is perfectly set up for it with no kill stealing, dynamic events, the way encounters scale to the number of players and the bronze / silver / gold medals. I was amazed they went with instances, they feel so tacked on when the rest of the pve is free roaming.
  MadnessRealm

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2696

Ignorance is Bliss.

12/04/12 5:32:51 PM#223
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Botryis
Actually gw2 would have worked better with open dungeons rather than instances. The game is perfectly set up for it with no kill stealing, dynamic events, the way encounters scale to the number of players and the bronze / silver / gold medals. I was amazed they went with instances, they feel so tacked on when the rest of the pve is free roaming.

But then boss loot would go to the first player/group landing a hit, which in the end will result in boss encounters being nothing more than a zergfest with groups hoping to be the first one to land a hit when the boss respawns.  This in turn would reduce the "epic" (if it ever was) nature of a boss encounter by removing all challenge (as are already GW2 DEs....zergfest) and forcing players to contiously camp a dungeon boss in hope to finally be the ones to get the hit.

That's what Botryis was referring to. You're not playing when you're waiting in line.

------
Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  Zushakon

Novice Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 120

12/04/12 5:50:17 PM#224
Originally posted by zimike
Originally posted by LizardEgypt
Anyone disagreeing with Tasos is lying to themselves. Whether you liked Darkfall or are interested in Darkfall UW, he is right. The games everyone is drooling over are no MMO diablo games. I see arguments that instancing is good on an MMO website. Go play GW2, SWTOR, or any of the other fake teleporting around the map RPGs for the shallow 2 weeks it'll last you and tell me again how much you support instancing. No player interaction, no risk/reward, just boring contrived repeatable gameplay.

 

Yup, the games of today basically hand you everything. You could argue that having to fight over a resources makes the game more interesting.  Rewards have more meaning when you have to work for them. 

 

And fighting is more exciting when you've got something to lose just as winning is more fullfilling when you've got something to gain. And those are the reasons DF UW will mostly likely be better than any of the other crap on the market.

Darkfall Unholy Wars:
Zushakon Odi

  Badaboom

Elite Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2376

12/04/12 5:51:18 PM#225
@ madness Everyone gets the loot/chest in gw2. The gw2 version is no wait in line.
  MadnessRealm

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2696

Ignorance is Bliss.

12/04/12 5:56:41 PM#226
Originally posted by Badaboom
@ madness Everyone gets the loot/chest in gw2. The gw2 version is no wait in line.

Ah, I knew about the DEs but didn't know about the dungeons doing that as well.

Still, it wouldn't fix the issue of bosses becoming a zergfest and thus making them far less challenging/epic. Otherwise they'd have to make some pretty brutal boss à la FFXI. At least there would be no waiting lines.

------
Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  DavisFlight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2418

 
OP  12/04/12 8:21:25 PM#227
Originally posted by MadnessRealm
Originally posted by Badaboom
@ madness Everyone gets the loot/chest in gw2. The gw2 version is no wait in line.

Ah, I knew about the DEs but didn't know about the dungeons doing that as well.

Still, it wouldn't fix the issue of bosses becoming a zergfest and thus making them far less challenging/epic. Otherwise they'd have to make some pretty brutal boss à la FFXI. At least there would be no waiting lines.

Zerging wasn't an issue in DAoC for a few reasons.

The AI was dynamic, in a sense. The dragon for example. If 200 people charged straight into him, he'd fly into the air and firebomb the raid, insta killing most of it. If only 30 people attacked he'd become overconfident and try to kill them with his tail and teeth. If they started using too much ranged damage, he'd use his breath.

So, between the various triggers on various tactics, and the need to balance raid numbers vs loot distribution, it kept people from just zerging the mobs. What's more, since raids weren't tierred anyone could join any raid at any time. The loot was pretty, but not radically better than what crafters could make, so there weren't constantly lines for raid bosses.

  Flute

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/07
Posts: 432

12/04/12 8:45:00 PM#228
Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

I'm glad to see that Aventurine, one of the only companies that sees instances for what they are, a crutch, is also one of the ONLY MMO companies to GROW after launch in the last 8 years,

 

Absolutely.  The concept of limited access instances only appeared because of failure of designers to develop better systems to counter the boss camping that occurred in some of the earlier MMOS in shared dungeons.

 

Of all the games companies out there, the two independents who seem to be "getting it" and growing still are CCP and Aventurine, who have been smart enough to watch and learn off CCP.  I hope other independent games companies do the same, and give us games worth playing rather than yet another variant of WoW, which is of course itself a derivative of the games that came before it.

  ZigZags

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/10
Posts: 335

12/04/12 9:29:51 PM#229
Originally posted by zymurgeist
So no high resolution textures then?

I think most old school MMOers who have been playing MMOs for 15 + years and recognize the best days were years ago would sacrifice Hi Res textures for better game mechanics any day.

 

Now: Skyrim
Later: ?
Played: M59, UO, EQ, Runescape, DAOC, SB, EQ2, WoW, EVE, Darkfall, AoC, FFXI, FFXIV, WAR, SWTOR
BOYCOTTING: EA/BioWare/Origin/SOE

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3477

12/04/12 9:58:00 PM#230

Aventurine has cute ideas, but I doubt their execution. I don't see any reason why this time it would go better. Everyone seems to have forgotten how they broke promise after promise.  What gameplay have you seen so far that takes away your doubts?

As for instanced or not. Instancing is not just to fix the mob camping. It is also used to tell story in a way that would not always work in an open world.

Then I saw some comments about players making their own story. Yeah, some players want that. But Darkfall, forget it. Main story in Darkfall will be 'Trollollollollol!' Because Aventurine doesn't understand why EVE became popular and Darkfall didn't.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

12/04/12 10:06:49 PM#231
Originally posted by ZigZags
Originally posted by zymurgeist
So no high resolution textures then?

I think most old school MMOers who have been playing MMOs for 15 + years and recognize the best days were years ago would sacrifice Hi Res textures for better game mechanics any day

....except the ones that just dropped 500 bones for a new GPU?  You're probably right, as a general rule.

But that cutting edge hardware watch me pose is awfully addictive, guys have been doing that much longer than PC or Mac. Stereos in the 70s, Cadillacs in the 50s...

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Redemp

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/05
Posts: 1055

If I didn't respond to you, chances are you're a idiot.

12/04/12 10:10:41 PM#232
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by ZigZags
Originally posted by zymurgeist
So no high resolution textures then?

I think most old school MMOers who have been playing MMOs for 15 + years and recognize the best days were years ago would sacrifice Hi Res textures for better game mechanics any day

....except the ones that just dropped 500 bones for a new GPU?  You're probably right, as a general rule.

But that cutting edge hardware watch me pose is awfully addictive, guys have been doing that much longer than PC or Mac. Stereos in the 70s, Cadillacs in the 50s...

 Yeah .. don't touch my graphics, I've grown accustom to my pretty mmo's. Realisticly we shouldn't have to sacrafice appearance for depth or quality. I don't think newer games are worse than the titles we cut our teeth on, we've just grown with the market and the first few will never be duplicated.

 

  Badaboom

Elite Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2376

12/04/12 10:25:14 PM#233
I know this thread is about instancing but everytime I see it poping up I cringe at the title.  AV gets instancing but it does not get crafting and economy.  I don't think they care though.  They want a pvp deathmatch and they got it.  
  chryses

Novice Member

Joined: 5/29/07
Posts: 1438

12/04/12 10:33:39 PM#234
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by tawess

Ofc he says that, what else can he do seeing has his first game pretty much only had that aspect to save it from it self (and if i gather the feedback on these forums it did not do that very well either) the man i smart enough to know his market. It is a bit like when the makers of Rift did that whoke "this is not Azeroth" thing.

 

But then again i seem to remmeber the same sort of buzz for DF 1 and that did not turn out so well (again according to the lovley crowd on Mmorpg) but if it will shut a part of the sandbox crowd that have not had their itch scratched since UO up i am fairly happy with that.

 

Just be careful of the hypetrain, it will only let you down.


The MMORPG crowd was always hypercritical in regards to Darkfall. Pre release they derailed every single thread screaming "VAPORWARE!" When the game turned out to be real they collectively went out of their way to bash every aspect of the game, despite it being obvious that they hadn't played it.

In reality, Darkfall did quite well for itself. Aventurine went from 20 devs to currently having 60 devs. They moved into a bigger building, opened a second server, completed 3 free expansions, and are now about to relaunch the game. It's a much better success story than just about every AAA WoW clone of the last 8 years.

 

Originally posted by karmath
Say what you will about AV, but no one can fault them for actualy trying to do something different and stick to their guns.

One of the reasons the game was developed so many times was because every publisher that approached them tried to get them to add in instances and take out full loot. They stuck to their vision.

They are certainly going about it the right way  as well.  Start with a small team and budget, develop a product and culture and then grow organically.  Makes you wonder what we would have if someone dropped 100 million and 400 devs on their doorstep like so many other games (SWTOR) had. 

I hardly played the first DF but I am definitely buying this one if its good enough.  It fits my vision of an MMO, don't know why I didn't play the first game, think I was into EvE then.

They are never going to have graphics like AoC but the open world makes up for it more than anything.  AoC was fun for me but the load screens did my head in and made me quit.

 

  wrekognize

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/07
Posts: 385

12/04/12 10:35:34 PM#235

What have been some of the main focuses of recent monsters, GW2 and TOR. Story, story and story..And graphics. And instancing.

Give me a world where I know my friend is in the same world I am, even if we're not partied. A world where we can create the stories based on our actions. It's a simple concept that next to no larger company have tried. Thank God AV has the balls to do it.

 

..

  Kubalay

Novice Member

Joined: 12/04/10
Posts: 3

12/04/12 10:42:47 PM#236

Tasos is indeed a god and savior for gamers. I been waiting for DF 2.0 since DF 1.0 was turned off. I love and always will love and support this game and company.

 

Full loot Pvp is the only type of MMO I can enjoy.

 

Signed,

King Kubalay of Kubalay.net

God of Agon and Slayer of Elitists.

  Raxeon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/10/10
Posts: 2059

12/04/12 10:47:15 PM#237
Originally posted by Badaboom
I know this thread is about instancing but everytime I see it poping up I cringe at the title.  AV gets instancing but it does not get crafting and economy.  I don't think they care though.  They want a pvp deathmatch and they got it.  

the crating wasnt the complaint of most players so they are only changing it some

  Badaboom

Elite Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2376

12/04/12 10:49:52 PM#238
Originally posted by Raxeon
Originally posted by Badaboom
I know this thread is about instancing but everytime I see it poping up I cringe at the title.  AV gets instancing but it does not get crafting and economy.  I don't think they care though.  They want a pvp deathmatch and they got it.  

the crating wasnt the complaint of most players so they are only changing it some

I disagree.  It was always a complaint of most of the players.  It was ignored and most left.  What was left was barebones pvp players.  Darkfall was always talked about as being much more.

  zimike

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/25/08
Posts: 122

12/04/12 10:55:47 PM#239
Originally posted by Raxeon
Originally posted by Badaboom
I know this thread is about instancing but everytime I see it poping up I cringe at the title.  AV gets instancing but it does not get crafting and economy.  I don't think they care though.  They want a pvp deathmatch and they got it.  

the crating wasnt the complaint of most players so they are only changing it some

 I must be one of those weird guys who enjoyed the previous crafting system. It took me months, if not years to get many of the skills up in the beginning. Having to go out to hunt for certain components, then bring them back to craft something was fun and gave me extra stuff to do.

 PvP seems to be the top selling point for this game, but honestly, I loved the PvE part a lot more in some respects. The AI was fun to go up against, I could kill different types of mobs for hours and not get bored.

The loot system was equally rewarding. You always had a changes to get something epic every now and then, even off trash mobs. Having that gamble element to the loot tables just added to the excitement.

At the end of the day, I would bring back my loot, craft stuff, take what I needed and donate the rest to the clan.

  Badaboom

Elite Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2376

12/04/12 11:05:33 PM#240
Originally posted by zimike
Originally posted by Raxeon
Originally posted by Badaboom
I know this thread is about instancing but everytime I see it poping up I cringe at the title.  AV gets instancing but it does not get crafting and economy.  I don't think they care though.  They want a pvp deathmatch and they got it.  

the crating wasnt the complaint of most players so they are only changing it some

 I must be one of those weird guys who enjoyed the previous crafting system. It took me months, if not years to get many of the skills up in the beginning. Having to go out to hunt for certain components, then bring them back to craft something was fun and gave me extra stuff to do.

 PvP seems to be the top selling point for this game, but honestly, I loved the PvE part a lot more in some respects. The AI was fun to go up against, I could kill different types of mobs for hours and not get bored.

The loot system was equally rewarding. You always had a changes to get something epic every now and then, even off trash mobs. Having that gamble element to the loot tables just added to the excitement.

At the end of the day, I would bring back my loot, craft stuff, take what I needed and donate the rest to the clan.

The problem was/is that everyone could craft anything.  Everyone was self reliant.  The only real market out there was for mats cuz everyone needed them.  I was able to make my own weapon, armour and craft the enchants for them.  That is a flawed system.  I should need to depend on others so i have to buy from them for some other things.  

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