Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Makmax6666

Closed PvP or "instanced PvP" has more than one bad effect:-

 

-If you think about the reason MMO existed is for People to Compete against each other, either by direct contact or through contact with the game world and gaining what we know of as "Achievements"

*Now we have the first way Instanced so we will not have to make effort to either find people to Protect us or team with us as we quest to make sure we are not ganked and neither will we feel needed by someone in the very same sense, so the friendship factor through questing in the world is killed for good, now moving on to the next:

 

*the Second way used to be one of the two means to creat amazing history and friendships as you battle your way through raids and instances and get the feeling of fight to survive before of thinking of Loot, when in fact i beileve Loot is important to have a reward for what you do, i do also beileve that the means to obtain it has become just a tread mill and not a path created for players to form relationships as they go through it, and the last screw has been dug in the PVE coffin when some mmos started the Looking for raid/dungeon finder feature which now ditched the social aspect of the game 100%

 

I do not see people keeping interest in game anymore after they gain the gear the have seeked/achievements

 I disagree that "the reason MMO existed is for People to Compete against each other". 

I don't think thats the reason at all, I think the reason was so that people could interact in some way in a game world, of which competition is just one reason of many possible reasons.  IMO not even the biggest part. 

Which Naturally will lead to people either demonstraiting their skills against each other through different means or Socially interacting?

Originally posted by Makmax6666

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Makmax6666

Closed PvP or "instanced PvP" has more than one bad effect:-

 

-If you think about the reason MMO existed is for People to Compete against each other, either by direct contact or through contact with the game world and gaining what we know of as "Achievements"

*Now we have the first way Instanced so we will not have to make effort to either find people to Protect us or team with us as we quest to make sure we are not ganked and neither will we feel needed by someone in the very same sense, so the friendship factor through questing in the world is killed for good, now moving on to the next:

 

*the Second way used to be one of the two means to creat amazing history and friendships as you battle your way through raids and instances and get the feeling of fight to survive before of thinking of Loot, when in fact i beileve Loot is important to have a reward for what you do, i do also beileve that the means to obtain it has become just a tread mill and not a path created for players to form relationships as they go through it, and the last screw has been dug in the PVE coffin when some mmos started the Looking for raid/dungeon finder feature which now ditched the social aspect of the game 100%

 

I do not see people keeping interest in game anymore after they gain the gear the have seeked/achievements

 I disagree that "the reason MMO existed is for People to Compete against each other". 

I don't think thats the reason at all, I think the reason was so that people could interact in some way in a game world, of which competition is just one reason of many possible reasons.  IMO not even the biggest part. 

Which Naturally will lead to people either demonstraiting their skills against each other through different means or Socially interacting?

 Social interaction doesn't mean competition, it is just one form.  That is the difference between "the purpose of something" and a "one of many purposes"

Originally posted by Phynn
I have been playing mmos forever..not really..but for quite a long time. IMO OPvP ususally ends up being 80% ganking, griefing,corpse camping more often than legitimate skill based fighting. I play games for a couple reasons...to take a break from RL happenings and to have fun. It is no fun to me to login and have to run back for my corpse every 15mins, or not be able to complete an objective due to the opposite faction camping said objective. I get that true pvp'rs want an open world to pvp in, so the best solution is to have dedicated OPvP servers and dedicated PvE servers. Keep all you uber pvp'rs togather and let the rest of us enjoy our game w/o having to be griefed by the pvp'rs. It has been said numerous times in this thread...OPvP breeds griefing, not by all, but by a vast majority.

Every 15 minutes? Are you serious or making that up? Because i have played mmo's forever and never was i killed that many times lol. Because if you die every 15 minutes i think its the player not the game.

Because i get ganked more in an instanced battlezone than anything. And often times the team are stacked.

opvp doesnt breed griefing, the people do.

Originally posted by Phynn
I have been playing mmos forever..not really..but for quite a long time. IMO OPvP ususally ends up being 80% ganking, griefing,corpse camping more often than legitimate skill based fighting. I play games for a couple reasons...to take a break from RL happenings and to have fun. It is no fun to me to login and have to run back for my corpse every 15mins, or not be able to complete an objective due to the opposite faction camping said objective. I get that true pvp'rs want an open world to pvp in, so the best solution is to have dedicated OPvP servers and dedicated PvE servers. Keep all you uber pvp'rs togather and let the rest of us enjoy our game w/o having to be griefed by the pvp'rs. It has been said numerous times in this thread...OPvP breeds griefing, not by all, but by a vast majority.

Griefing is a game design flow that can be fixed in my opinion through many ways

Originally posted by Onomas

Originally posted by Makmax6666

World PvP was the reason I loved MMO not because of the PvP factor itself but for the following Points:-

 

* It encourges grouping up

*It leads to people forming groups

*It can cause you to creat amazing friendships and not just making enemies

*The Surprise factor of being jumped by anyone as you quest is a feeling that can not be bought with money

*It can leave amazing memories for you to remember with your friend as you survive through nearly impossible pvp encounters while originally both of you were "just Questing"

*It can always disrupt your questing plans, which is not always a bad thing as the main reason now days people get bored of MMOs is because it is just dull experiance or a one time experiance  and then everything is expected eventually leading them to move on to the next MMO "seeking the thing that kept them enterained in the past"

 

I do not Normally Post but i just thought to share my view on this one

 

 

This is a good point, i still speak with people i met years ago in game and grew a friendship outside of the game. Years later we still team up in game once in awhile, but with families now, time is limited. But that will never take away the memories.

+1

How many MMO were released in past two years that alow you to do it!!!!  NONE

All MMO nowdays are made for forum-pve-whiners, and they r getting more and more like single player games, with players forced to interact at endgame for raiding or battleground nonsence.

Originally posted by Quirhid
Oh don't be stupid, you all know what ganking means. Like it was ever unclear. [mod edit]

Who's being stupid? No need to be offensive.

Like every term used on this site, people have a hundred different definitions. People can't even agree on what is a sandbox or theme park. Hell, people are having a tough time agreeing on what an MMORPG is. So let's hear it, Quirhid. What's your definition of "ganking".

ganking =anytime a group of people kill you solo or your small group. To kill without mercy. High level killing low level players thoughout the world.

Which in any case an instanced pvp zone with teams does allow room for ganking. How many times have you joined a warzone or raid and some of your team drop out, or you join mid-game and you join the smaller team? Or even having all max level on one side and your team is outgunned? Think the last warzone i played in SWTOR it was 12 vs 5(6 maybe).

Ganking in instanced pvp is very doable.

Originally posted by mmoDAD

When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?

EverQuest II's 2006 Nagafen Server was a World PvP Server. It worked.

SWG's PvP was World PvP. It worked.

 

Ever since WoW, PvP has become pure trash. And to make matters worse, "World PvP" has become such a loose term that anything that isn't completely structured  is considered World PvP, e.g., SWTOR's Ilum - a dedicated area for PvP. This isn't World PvP. It's trash.

 

Servers should go like this:

Server #1 PvE (Optional Battlegrounds)

Server #2 PvP (World PvP)

 

I'll tell you why people waste time in these redundant battlegrounds. It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces. You want that little piece of reward that everyone will eventually have. It's boring. It's an embarrassment to the genre.

I don't want to see anyone fail. However, it would be a lie to not say I enjoy watching these Instanced PvP games turn into failed FTP games.

  Don't care for PvP so not everyone is a carbon copy of you sir. That's not to say I would be opposed to open world PvP with a few ground rules in place to keep the gankfest away. Pick on someone your own size - meaning you can't begin a PvP with someone 3 or more levels below you .... but hey you can start one up with anyone at  or above your level Tarzan.  Anyone pulled into a PvP not wanting the battle may "submit" at no penalty. The submitting acct may not be challenged by that aggressor's acct for 24 hrs. Go away and stay away.

  Under those rules I would be able to let my PvE game co-exist with your PvP mentality. 

Originally posted by Psychow
Am I to understand that anything that isn't done like it was in SWG is trash?

Well since you mentioned it.... :)

It's not that SWG (or Ultima Online for that matter) did it better and made everything else look like 'trash'... it's that so many games are so craven and cowardly in their implementations.

SWG had a lot of flaws, but it attempted to be something more than a cash shop zergfest Pay-2-Win grinder.

Sure, world PVP can get a bit ganky, but I've ganked / been ganked upside down and backwards and didn't find it bad. Hey that's life, sometimes you run into 20x as many as you... that's how Heroes are made, right?? :)

Not everything in life is 5 vs 5 with identical gear. I realize how shocking that is to a lot of younger MMO people, but gosh it's true, yes really.

Originally posted by Onomas

ganking =anytime a group of people kill you solo or your small group. To kill without mercy. High level killing low level players thoughout the world.

Which in any case an instanced pvp zone with teams does allow room for ganking. How many times have you joined a warzone or raid and some of your team drop out, or you join mid-game and you join the smaller team? Or even having all max level on one side and your team is outgunned? Think the last warzone i played in SWTOR it was 12 vs 5(6 maybe).

 

Ganking in instanced pvp is very doable.

 In instanced pvp you are at most 9 lvls higher/lower so the high level thing is out.  In instanced pvp the teams are the same size so the solo/gropu thing is out.

So no I don't think it's very doable.  People can certainly leave, but it starts out the same, and more people can come in.

edit - I've never joined a team that was smaller at the start or more than 1 or 2 people smaller during the actual event.  I have had people drop out but they are replaced usually in seconds.

Originally posted by Onomas

ganking =anytime a group of people kill you solo or your small group. To kill without mercy. High level killing low level players thoughout the world.

Which in any case an instanced pvp zone with teams does allow room for ganking. How many times have you joined a warzone or raid and some of your team drop out, or you join mid-game and you join the smaller team? Or even having all max level on one side and your team is outgunned? Think the last warzone i played in SWTOR it was 12 vs 5(6 maybe).

 

Ganking in instanced pvp is very doable.

Let's talk about  preferences instead of what define "ganking". If i go into an instanced pvp, i am fully prepare to face someone try or succeed in kiling me.

What is wrong with NOT wanting to face that possibility when i am doing pve. That is my choice. And when i like to play like that, i join a pve game and turn off my pve flag.

Very simple.

Now if you have a owpvp game, i don't have that playstyle option. And if i don't want my pve to be interrupt by pvp, i have to find a game without owpvp, right? Very logical.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Typically in tupperware pvp games like wow or rift you get guys in "phat epic" picking on "noobs in greens"

Give me daoc style pvp in a themepark mmo any day, where you at least loose to who organised their forces best and has the best morale rather than some basement dweller who can grind 16 hours a day.

Eve style for a sandbox

you have no clue how instanced pvp works.

Do you know that WOW arena (and many other matching games like LOL) use a ELO (if you don't know what it is, look it up) ranking and matching system.

If you are a high ranking player in "phat epic", you don't get to play with "noobs in greens".

E-sports, and the algorithm to match the right opponents is not a new thing you know. Chess has done it for decades (where the ELO system was first used), and most professional sports do too.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Boneserino

Originally posted by Maelwydd
Most of the problems come from the mind set in OPvP games of "This game has PvP so I MUST kill everyone" where I think most people see it as "If I have a reason to kill someone I will, but a level 1 noob isn;t worth engaging with because ther is no skill involved in winning". For me personally the reason I participate in more structured PvP is simply because I PvP as a contest of skill and if there is such an imbalance, either way, then I don't find it interesting. A tough fight where 2 equal sides meet and the winner is because they are better PvP'ers is more interesting to me then a game where a level 80 attacks my as a level 1, I have no chance and usually just let them kill me and get on with things. A personal opinion but I don't get the mentality some people have who like to kill noobs "Because it is PvP". IMO killing a noob ISN'T PvP, that is why I usually don't play such games unless it has been designed well....and not many games are.

Should read:

Most of the problems come from the mind set in OPvP games of "This game has PvP so I am gonna kill everyone because I can....Muwahahahaha!! "  where I think possibly, maybe a few people, not really sure, maybe none at all, see it as "If I have a reason to kill someone I will. "  

I mean lets be real here....  

 

It might even be something as simple as 98% of the population will only kill someone if they have a good reason, and 2% will kill everything.  But that 2% will do it 90% of the time and to lower level players.

Therefore while most don't do it, it still happens frequently.

Yes I quite agree with you here.  These idiots know they will get all the attention, that is obviously why they do it. 

  Problem is, in open PVP it is really hard to ban or discipline these players because then it is a slippery slope as to what is acceptable and what is not.   Everyone has a different opinion on that.

Originally posted by Boneserino

 

Yes I quite agree with you here.  These idiots know they will get all the attention, that is obviously why they do it. 

  Problem is, in open PVP it is really hard to ban or discipline these players because then it is a slippery slope as to what is acceptable and what is not.   Everyone has a different opinion on that.

That is why usually the simplest solution is not to have OWpvp. And only have consensual pvp.

That is why usually the simplest solution is not to have OWpvp. And only have consensual pvp.

That is a terrible idea.

What they need to do is completely remove all forms of PvP Rewards. If this was done, nobody would want to play redundant BGs. Nobody would want to constantly gank greens and greens for PvP XP.