I think the reason mmos are moving more to instanced PvP "trash" is because it simply put works better than WPvP for a lot of games.

There are no right and wrong features to add to a game, and no glove fits all. Some mmos benefit from a more structured PvP experience, others suffer for it. It really dephends on what works best with the rest of the game. Design is law, and nothing mixes and matches all that well with everything and what may work for EVE Online might end up detracting from the experience in a game like Guild Wars 2.

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Originally posted by mmoDAD
When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?

EverQuest II's 2006 Nagafen Server was a World PvP Server. It worked.

SWG's PvP was World PvP. It worked.

 

Ever since WoW, PvP has become pure trash. And to make matters worse, "World PvP" has become such a loose term that anything that isn't completely structured  is considered World PvP, e.g., SWTOR's Ilum - a dedicated area for PvP. This isn't World PvP. It's trash.

 

Servers should go like this:

Server #1 PvE (Optional Battlegrounds)

Server #2 PvP (World PvP)

 

I'll tell you why people waste time in these redundant battlegrounds. It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces. You want that little piece of reward that everyone will eventually have. It's boring. It's an embarrassment to the genre.

I don't want to see anyone fail. However, it would be a lie to not say I enjoy watching these Instanced PvP games turn into failed FTP games.

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Personally I like it that way. Not settled, I like it.

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Originally posted by DavisFlight

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Originally posted by lizardbones  

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Originally posted by ShakyMo Players didn't settle for instanced pvp It's just in 90% of post wow mmos its the only pvp available. If players had decided instanced pvp was the best. There would be more players in spvp than in WvW in gw2 and planetside 2 wouldn't be the huge success it is. It took developers 8 years, but finally they realised there's a market for players that don't want the tacked on afterthought trash that is wow style pvp.

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Except WoW has OWPvP servers. Players are forced into PvE servers...they are choosing to play those servers. Same for Rift...OWPvP servers are available, most people pick the PvE servers.  

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Thats probably because its very obvious the game is NOT designed for OWPVP.

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by bunnyhopper
 

 

Then it is a problem for that "some" people .. not me, and many that play MMOs like a lobby game.

In fact, how is harassment possible in a open world pve game, except kill stealing? And as long as you tag the mob fast enough, no one can touch it?

There are a multitude of ways to harrass/disrupt someone in an open world pve game and many ways of continuing that after they have "stuck you on ignore dude". These range from mechanical/game world impacting strategies (lock downs, taps, trains) through group/event/rp/guild disruption, to direct personal attacks across a variety of mediums.

There will no doubt be countless other methods I am unaware of given that I don't spend my time thinking how to grief the crap out of other players.

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper  

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Then it is a problem for that "some" people .. not me, and many that play MMOs like a lobby game. In fact, how is harassment possible in a open world pve game, except kill stealing? And as long as you tag the mob fast enough, no one can touch it?

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There are a multitude of ways to harrass/disrupt someone in an open world pve game and many ways of continuing that after they have "stuck you on ignore dude". These range from mechanical/game world impacting strategies (lock downs, taps, trains) through group/event/rp/guild disruption, to direct personal attacks across a variety of mediums.

 

There will no doubt be countless other methods I am unaware of given that I don't spend my time thinking how to grief the crap out of other players.

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Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper  

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It is entirely possible to grief people in PvE games, especially if there is a flagging system in place. The difference is that the same behavior on an OWPvP server or a PvP based game is acceptable behavior, while in the PvE server/game it's not acceptable behavior. I think that's what people are using the term "Griefing" for. Things that are not acceptable on a PvE server.

 

Smashing someone in the face in general would probably be pretty unacceptable to most, but I don't run around the houses screaming bloody murder and then ring the police every time I watch a boxing match. Just as I don't think "omg that guy is harrassing me, what a sociopathic fker!" when I get ganked in a pvp game.

Originally posted by Volkon

PvP, to me, should be something I engage in when I choose to do so, not when someone else chooses to do so. I don't care if this elicits cries of "carebear" or whatever. I'm not playing these games for someone elses entertainment, I'm playing it for my own. As such, a system like Guild Wars 2, which fully segregates the PvP from the PvE, works ideally for me. If I feel like kicking back and running events, farming materials, doing dungeons, exploring, etc. I can do so at my leisure without worrying about someone who's over-compensating for a depressing real life trying to gank me in game in order to give himself the illusion of being significant. If I want to PvP, I can do so in a balanced arena style setting (sPvP) or in a more chaotic setting (WvW), which is where I actually spend most of my time. I don't dislike PvP at all... I've over 5000 kills in WvW so far and have a blast there. But it's mutually agreed to death and destruction. I'm there by choice. The person/group/zerg I'm clashing with is/are also there by choice. 

 

This whole thought that there should be "penalties" for dying in PvP... completely stupid. Oh, but it makes it mean something! Horsecrap. You're pixels beat up his pixels. Pull the plug on the server and it's like you never existed in game anyhow, so giving some basement dweller the power to punish someone against their will else who's simply playing to have fun... ridiculous, and people should be embarassed for encouraging that. Seriously, what the heck is wrong with these people? You take pride in ruining someone elses fun? Really? Grats, you're an eBully, but only until you step away from the computer. 

 

PvP should be consentual. It shouldn't be designed to "punish" people to the extent their fun is demolished, there no need nor sense in that. It should be fun. Win, lose or draw, both parties should still be able to hop right back into the action without the childishness of corpse-camping or the fear that some clown can now take your gear or weapons that you put who knows how much time and effort into acquiring. It should give you the option of being in a small and controlled environment or chaotic and massive one. The amount of people that would settle for open world gank feasting simply amazes me.

 First off your opinion is fine as it is your opinion on the matter, but trying to say that what others find entertaining or fun, and which gives their game more meaning is somehow wrong is well shallow, and also very telling that you are a extremely closed minded person. I play both Open world, open world FFA, Instance, and perma-death pvp styles alongside many of the pve styles i also play. Having your actions weither it be attacking a mob that is stronger than you, pvping against someone in the  open world, or just taking a risk, and knowing that you could lose hours or progression does appeal an give more meeaning/impact to the way you play. Also when it comes down to it if you play on a game or server that is created an marketed for being a open pvp and open world playstyle, you are accepting that you will have to deal with being attacked or killed at any moment in that game setting, and that does make the pvp in that setting completely consentual as you both knew you would be attack/ganked in that game at some point.  There is a reason you would have a choice of pvp, and pve geared server, and content, which is that certain styles of play are not for everyone's taste, just as not all food is going to be liked by everyone in the world.

It amazes me more that so many on both sides of the debate are so closed minded, and arrogant as to think that one methoid, and style of fun is correct an right, while the other is wrong an evil, since fun an enjoyment of an activity is subjective to what each person enjoys, and finds engaging to do for fun. It is jsut like two religous groups argueing over which one iss right, and good, and whcih is evil an corrupt since in the end both are not going to say they are the evil/corrupt ones. Just move on respect that you have differing opinion, and tastes in things, and have fun doing what you enjoy allowing the other to do so as well. All forms of entertainment should be supported in some fashion weither be in a features of a game, certain niche games, or what other options might arise. In the end you have a choice to play a game or not based on what it offers, and so if you play a game with somethign that does not suit your form of fun than you made the choice to lose youur enjoyment at the moment you started playing.

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by lizardbones  

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper  

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It is entirely possible to grief people in PvE games, especially if there is a flagging system in place. The difference is that the same behavior on an OWPvP server or a PvP based game is acceptable behavior, while in the PvE server/game it's not acceptable behavior. I think that's what people are using the term "Griefing" for. Things that are not acceptable on a PvE server.  

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Smashing someone in the face in general would probably be pretty unacceptable to most, but I don't run around the houses screaming bloody murder and then ring the police every time I watch a boxing match. Just as I don't think "omg that guy is harrassing me, what a sociopathic fker!" when I get ganked in a pvp game.

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Originally posted by mmoDAD

When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?

EverQuest II's 2006 Nagafen Server was a World PvP Server. It worked.

SWG's PvP was World PvP. It worked.

 

Ever since WoW, PvP has become pure trash. And to make matters worse, "World PvP" has become such a loose term that anything that isn't completely structured  is considered World PvP, e.g., SWTOR's Ilum - a dedicated area for PvP. This isn't World PvP. It's trash.

 

Servers should go like this:

Server #1 PvE (Optional Battlegrounds)

Server #2 PvP (World PvP)

 

I'll tell you why people waste time in these redundant battlegrounds. It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces. You want that little piece of reward that everyone will eventually have. It's boring. It's an embarrassment to the genre.

I don't want to see anyone fail. However, it would be a lie to not say I enjoy watching these Instanced PvP games turn into failed FTP games.

I like my PvP optional, if at all, as does the majority of the market it seems. You don't, and that's fine, but your ability to be 'amazed' by people not liking what you like is entertaining.

Do you enjoy watching the 'failed' open world PvP games (such as Aion and the like) fo F2P as well? Just out of interest I mean...

Best pvp hands downs is in age of wushu/wulin, everything else doesnt even beging to compare.

But it is true that the mmo market is full of casual gamers and pve hardcore gamers, so its good when theres a game for each kind of gamer, would be awful if you had a title that wanted to please everybody.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by lizardbones  

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper  

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It's only a major problem if the people are actually logging into the PvP servers or the PvP games. If they consider the behavior that happens on a PvP server or PvP game to be griefing, and then they don't login, then the system is working as expected. People are exercising their ability to choose.

There are lots of actual issues though. There's a gap between how games are advertised and how the experience actually is. This isn't just an issue with PvP either, but it's part of the problem. Games like SWToR with little or no open world PvP advertising the struggle with another faction, when it's a miniscule part of the game. Games like Darkfall looking like WoW with hard PvE content. The wrong players end up in the wrong games and it doesn't take many of them for raise a stink.

Of course, there are players who should know better ending up in the wrong games too. You can't really tell the difference between a new player who got killed in Darkfall, thinking there would be some sort of 'honorable' combat, and the person who's played WoW for a year or more complaining about the meaninglessness of the OWPvP. Not on forums anyway.

 

I agree to an extent with most of that. But in all honesty games like EVE and Darkfall seem to go out of their way to point out the fact that they are "ruthless" and a casual glance at the forums of said games will further enforce that.

Moreover, quite often on these forums we have people who don't even bother playing said games, before blurting out "it's wall to wall griefing!!!".

World PvP is boring.  It's dull and uninteresting.  Even when it's not simply one player attacking and ganking another who is trying to do something else, it's just a mindless deathmatch.  It's fighting for no actual purpose besides fighting.  Yeah, some people enjoy stalking and getting the drop on other players, and sometimes it's fun to be on your guard, but most of the time, world PvP is only fun for the ganker.  It very seldom turns into those big TM v Southshore battles that everyone remembers so fondly.  Most of the time, it's some jerk getting his jollies by getting in someone else's way.

Instanced PvP, meanwhile, usually has a purpose.  I love the battleground system.  I like my fighting to have some kind of purpose beyond just killing.  Capture the flag or territory control battles... so much more fun than simple deathmatches.  The added layers of complexity and teamwork shred the superficial tactics of a small group or solo battle.

Not to say that a game based around open PvP can't be great.  But when you jam into a mold where it doesn't really fit, everything, including the PvP, suffers.  World PvP is a really striking example where trying to shove different game styles into a single game really doesn't work.

Originally posted by Asuran24

Originally posted by Volkon

PvP, to me, should be something I engage in when I choose to do so, not when someone else chooses to do so. I don't care if this elicits cries of "carebear" or whatever. I'm not playing these games for someone elses entertainment, I'm playing it for my own. As such, a system like Guild Wars 2, which fully segregates the PvP from the PvE, works ideally for me. If I feel like kicking back and running events, farming materials, doing dungeons, exploring, etc. I can do so at my leisure without worrying about someone who's over-compensating for a depressing real life trying to gank me in game in order to give himself the illusion of being significant. If I want to PvP, I can do so in a balanced arena style setting (sPvP) or in a more chaotic setting (WvW), which is where I actually spend most of my time. I don't dislike PvP at all... I've over 5000 kills in WvW so far and have a blast there. But it's mutually agreed to death and destruction. I'm there by choice. The person/group/zerg I'm clashing with is/are also there by choice. 

 

This whole thought that there should be "penalties" for dying in PvP... completely stupid. Oh, but it makes it mean something! Horsecrap. You're pixels beat up his pixels. Pull the plug on the server and it's like you never existed in game anyhow, so giving some basement dweller the power to punish someone against their will else who's simply playing to have fun... ridiculous, and people should be embarassed for encouraging that. Seriously, what the heck is wrong with these people? You take pride in ruining someone elses fun? Really? Grats, you're an eBully, but only until you step away from the computer. 

 

PvP should be consentual. It shouldn't be designed to "punish" people to the extent their fun is demolished, there no need nor sense in that. It should be fun. Win, lose or draw, both parties should still be able to hop right back into the action without the childishness of corpse-camping or the fear that some clown can now take your gear or weapons that you put who knows how much time and effort into acquiring. It should give you the option of being in a small and controlled environment or chaotic and massive one. The amount of people that would settle for open world gank feasting simply amazes me.

 First off your opinion is fine as it is your opinion on the matter, but trying to say that what others find entertaining or fun, and which gives their game more meaning is somehow wrong is well shallow, and also very telling that you are a extremely closed minded person. I play both Open world, open world FFA, Instance, and perma-death pvp styles alongside many of the pve styles i also play. Having your actions weither it be attacking a mob that is stronger than you, pvping against someone in the  open world, or just taking a risk, and knowing that you could lose hours or progression does appeal an give more meeaning/impact to the way you play. Also when it comes down to it if you play on a game or server that is created an marketed for being a open pvp and open world playstyle, you are accepting that you will have to deal with being attacked or killed at any moment in that game setting, and that does make the pvp in that setting completely consentual as you both knew you would be attack/ganked in that game at some point.  There is a reason you would have a choice of pvp, and pve geared server, and content, which is that certain styles of play are not for everyone's taste, just as not all food is going to be liked by everyone in the world.

 

It amazes me more that so many on both sides of the debate are so closed minded, and arrogant as to think that one methoid, and style of fun is correct an right, while the other is wrong an evil, since fun an enjoyment of an activity is subjective to what each person enjoys, and finds engaging to do for fun. It is jsut like two religous groups argueing over which one iss right, and good, and whcih is evil an corrupt since in the end both are not going to say they are the evil/corrupt ones. Just move on respect that you have differing opinion, and tastes in things, and have fun doing what you enjoy allowing the other to do so as well. All forms of entertainment should be supported in some fashion weither be in a features of a game, certain niche games, or what other options might arise. In the end you have a choice to play a game or not based on what it offers, and so if you play a game with somethign that does not suit your form of fun than you made the choice to lose youur enjoyment at the moment you started playing.

Note the first three words... "PvP, to me". The entirety of it is my personal opinion on the matter, nothing more. Now, on the flip side, I played EvE online for quite some time and enjoyed the hell out of wormhole living. 

How strange now that I think about it... technically EvE Online is all instanced PvP, yet it's one of the most cut-throat PvP games out there. 

Final aside... your last statement - "you made the choice to lose your enjoyment the moment you started playing" - first, most people don't realize the impact or degree PvP will have on them when they first venture into a new game. This should be obvious. Sure, the forum grazing greybeards will, but the newer crowd... not so much. Second, before you preach about who's close-minded or considers their opinion as fact... well, reread that a few times.

Originally posted by LhynnSaint
I dont even know why the OP is complaining, there are games with open world pvp, Lineage 2 is an example of that.

Because number of open world pvp games very limited, Lineage 2 is getting really old, RF  online, R2 online are a bit younger but still old. And every year we got 3-4 MMO titles that are very lacking in pvp department.SWTOR, Rift, TSW good pve games but thats about it. 

I agree with OP pvp in modern MMO is nothing but trash.

Its funny so many here keep using the word "ganked" as an arguement against open world pvp. Because in all my years gaming and playing ive been ganked more in instanced warzone/raids than i have in the open world.

Originally posted by Onomas

Its funny so many here keep using the word "ganked" as an arguement against open world pvp. Because in all my years gaming and playing ive been ganked more in instanced warzone/raids than i have in the open world.

True dat. Which makes something of a mockery of quite a few anti open world arguments you see on here.

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Asuran24

Originally posted by Volkon

PvP, to me, should be something I engage in when I choose to do so, not when someone else chooses to do so. I don't care if this elicits cries of "carebear" or whatever. I'm not playing these games for someone elses entertainment, I'm playing it for my own. As such, a system like Guild Wars 2, which fully segregates the PvP from the PvE, works ideally for me. If I feel like kicking back and running events, farming materials, doing dungeons, exploring, etc. I can do so at my leisure without worrying about someone who's over-compensating for a depressing real life trying to gank me in game in order to give himself the illusion of being significant. If I want to PvP, I can do so in a balanced arena style setting (sPvP) or in a more chaotic setting (WvW), which is where I actually spend most of my time. I don't dislike PvP at all... I've over 5000 kills in WvW so far and have a blast there. But it's mutually agreed to death and destruction. I'm there by choice. The person/group/zerg I'm clashing with is/are also there by choice. 

 

This whole thought that there should be "penalties" for dying in PvP... completely stupid. Oh, but it makes it mean something! Horsecrap. You're pixels beat up his pixels. Pull the plug on the server and it's like you never existed in game anyhow, so giving some basement dweller the power to punish someone against their will else who's simply playing to have fun... ridiculous, and people should be embarassed for encouraging that. Seriously, what the heck is wrong with these people? You take pride in ruining someone elses fun? Really? Grats, you're an eBully, but only until you step away from the computer. 

 

PvP should be consentual. It shouldn't be designed to "punish" people to the extent their fun is demolished, there no need nor sense in that. It should be fun. Win, lose or draw, both parties should still be able to hop right back into the action without the childishness of corpse-camping or the fear that some clown can now take your gear or weapons that you put who knows how much time and effort into acquiring. It should give you the option of being in a small and controlled environment or chaotic and massive one. The amount of people that would settle for open world gank feasting simply amazes me.

 First off your opinion is fine as it is your opinion on the matter, but trying to say that what others find entertaining or fun, and which gives their game more meaning is somehow wrong is well shallow, and also very telling that you are a extremely closed minded person. I play both Open world, open world FFA, Instance, and perma-death pvp styles alongside many of the pve styles i also play. Having your actions weither it be attacking a mob that is stronger than you, pvping against someone in the  open world, or just taking a risk, and knowing that you could lose hours or progression does appeal an give more meeaning/impact to the way you play. Also when it comes down to it if you play on a game or server that is created an marketed for being a open pvp and open world playstyle, you are accepting that you will have to deal with being attacked or killed at any moment in that game setting, and that does make the pvp in that setting completely consentual as you both knew you would be attack/ganked in that game at some point.  There is a reason you would have a choice of pvp, and pve geared server, and content, which is that certain styles of play are not for everyone's taste, just as not all food is going to be liked by everyone in the world.

 

It amazes me more that so many on both sides of the debate are so closed minded, and arrogant as to think that one methoid, and style of fun is correct an right, while the other is wrong an evil, since fun an enjoyment of an activity is subjective to what each person enjoys, and finds engaging to do for fun. It is jsut like two religous groups argueing over which one iss right, and good, and whcih is evil an corrupt since in the end both are not going to say they are the evil/corrupt ones. Just move on respect that you have differing opinion, and tastes in things, and have fun doing what you enjoy allowing the other to do so as well. All forms of entertainment should be supported in some fashion weither be in a features of a game, certain niche games, or what other options might arise. In the end you have a choice to play a game or not based on what it offers, and so if you play a game with somethign that does not suit your form of fun than you made the choice to lose youur enjoyment at the moment you started playing.

Note the first three words... "PvP, to me". The entirety of it is my personal opinion on the matter, nothing more. Now, on the flip side, I played EvE online for quite some time and enjoyed the hell out of wormhole living. 

 

How strange now that I think about it... technically EvE Online is all instanced PvP, yet it's one of the most cut-throat PvP games out there. 

 

Final aside... your last statement - "you made the choice to lose your enjoyment the moment you started playing" - first, most people don't realize the impact or degree PvP will have on them when they first venture into a new game. This should be obvious. Sure, the forum grazing greybeards will, but the newer crowd... not so much. Second, before you preach about who's close-minded or considers their opinion as fact... well, reread that a few times.

 Yes lets take one part of what was said an place it out of context. As i said "In the end you have a choice to play a game or not based on what it offers, and if you play a game with something that does not suit your form of fun, than you made the choice to lose your enjoument at the moment you started playing." Which means that iif you do not like world pvp an yet you go into a game that is open world pvp, and you get ganked, or killed in the open world you knowingly knew you had that chance, and so you lost your enjoyment by sheer fact of ignoring that the game supported a form of play you do not enjoy. Hmm than if you find you do not like that after you try it, don't complain about it, but merely leave the game after finding that you do not like it. An it is a fact that if you play a game that you know is not created in a style or type you like, you are taking your fun in hand, and taking a risk of not having fun in that game.

Also that part is black is your opinion as stated, but than you go on to detail how you think that having penalities, risk or being attacked, or losing your gear as having no sense (this is not you stating your opinion but stating it as if it were a fact of how fun is supposed to be.), when if you look ast many people they enjoy that sense off danger, possibility of losing thigns, and so it makes the game funner for them as it gives the game more maining. You vailed what you said as an opinion, and proceeded to state your prefered style of play as the only true an correct way of playing, with all other ways being wrong an incorrect.