Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Originally posted by Arglebargle

Originally posted by maccarthur2004
As said before, WoW is one of the worst mmos regading the easiness to gank. I think this fact is partly responsible for the extreme skepticism of some people about the possibility of effectively control gank in a mmo with free pvp.

I think the lack of a successful example certainly helps the skepticism stay strong.

 

Not saying it can't be done, just not sure the effort to deal with it would be a useful expenditure of time.

???

 

I SWEAR to you, with all my heart, that i was much more frequently ganked in WoW than in L2. WoW fails more in preventing gank than most mmos, even FFA mmos.

Not the point.  Wow is irrelevant.   Always an outlier.   Controlling ganking, griefing, etc is the point.   Games whose rules help damaged asshats  ruin someone's day are the problem.  Those guys are not playing the same game as everyone else, as their desire is to just make someone feel bad.   And believe me, most developers understand that these types of players drive paying customers away.

I have played competitive chess, still have loads of miniatures armies, etc.   But I have the choice of who to play with, in most FTF encounters.  There are stiill some social controls in FTF gaming.  Not so much on all internet gaming. 

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by maccarthur2004

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Originally posted by DSWBeef Its not that im against pvp. Im against full loot FORCED pvp. Thats the main reason I dont play MO or DF. I shouldnt be forced into entering a pvp situation. Thats why I enjoy pve servers, I can pvp When I choose to.

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So why are you waiting ArcheAge?  Is better read about the game before to wait. :D

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There's a good bit of non-PvP sandbox content in the game. It's also possible to setup protected areas. So while the game has PvP, it's possible to have some control of it.

 

Wrong. Its full blown OW PVP. Its just the third continent that is FFA OWPvP without consequence (faction hits). 

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I dislike Instanced anything in an MMO... takes away the fact that your playing an MMO. 

As for people who dislike OWPvP... More often than not, they have never had the true OWPvP experience (GvG..Group v Group, Faction v Faction etc.) and are basing there entire experience on being killed a few times while fighting a mob, or being ganked by a higher level/group. 

So scared might not be the perfect word, but I dont think its the wrong word either.

That or they completely blow at reacting to a noncomputer character that isn't scripted to act the same way over and over again.  

Originally posted by picommander
One of the best PVP games I've ever played (and actually enjoyed!) was Warbirds. This was a twitched based game with quite realistic flight physics. Unfortunately it suffered from another issue not mentionied in this thread (from what I've read so far): different ping times on oversee connections. This will either give a huge disadvantage to the player with the slower ping times or (even worse) let him warp around and let him look like a cheater. So really good PVP either needs localized servers (which splits the community) or not being twitched based at all. But who wants either of that?

What is wrong with localized servers? I play PS2 .. and i really don't care much who i am playing with as long as there is a big battle.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by picommander
One of the best PVP games I've ever played (and actually enjoyed!) was Warbirds. This was a twitched based game with quite realistic flight physics. Unfortunately it suffered from another issue not mentionied in this thread (from what I've read so far): different ping times on oversee connections. This will either give a huge disadvantage to the player with the slower ping times or (even worse) let him warp around and let him look like a cheater. So really good PVP either needs localized servers (which splits the community) or not being twitched based at all. But who wants either of that?

What is wrong with localized servers? I play PS2 .. and i really don't care much who i am playing with as long as there is a big battle.

You might be right if PVP is nothing more than big anonymous battles for you, with out much social ascpects. But such a game would look like a niche product in my book. Also, ask the producers about the costs of multi server maintanance...

Originally posted by picommander

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

What is wrong with localized servers? I play PS2 .. and i really don't care much who i am playing with as long as there is a big battle.

You might be right if PVP is nothing more than big anonymous battles for you, with out much social ascpects. But such a game would look like a niche product in my book. Also, ask the producers about the costs of multi server maintanance...

Niche product? Isn't that what BF3 is like .. and what PS2 is like. I wouldn't call a jump in and shoot pvp game a niche product.

In fact, anything with political or social aspect is a niche product. Eve is much more niche, than say COD, or LOL.

It is quite simple really. Some people dont want to do PvP because it is hard, much harder than PvE. PvE mobs just stand there and wait to be farmed by people where as people are much more unpredictable and dificult to farm.

That being said, there certainly are negative elements associated to PvP, as seen in games like Eve. But like with most things, you take the good with the bad and for me PvE is far too boring for me to play exclusively. I need some PvP to challenge me and shake me up, AI dont do that.

People have to realise how incredibly different mmo pvp is to fps pvp. In a fps shooter I can typically get used to the controls and start killing people (who even have crazy unlocks) with a decent chance. In an mmo a new player typically can't kill someone 5 levels above them let alone 45+ levels. It simply isn't fun to head out into an area to level and then be ganked by roaming groups of players totaling 200+ levels combined to you and possible a buddy or two totalling 60 levels. If this imbalance was in any other pvp game in any genre anywhere in the world it would be considered the worst pvp game ever made ... yet we see it all the time in mmos.

I have know many players who simply did not like pvp period. That is their right but most players do at least try it and many indeed love it but the added stress of being thrown into battlegrounds or even worse the open world you normally play in and then be put light years beneath others in power and expected to compete is far too annoying for many to handle.

Pve and pvp have always been a challenge. On one hand players traditionally (through rpg games and older mmos) like the sense of gaining power through pve. It is the addictive quality of the game. On the other hand pvp is about equality where skill should shine over gear advantage. Real pvp players I know want this. They do not want to face roll everyone (sadly many others enjoy face rolling but I feel it is a symptom created from pve levels in pvp hence all the noob zone gankers we see in most games) and want a chance to prove their skill and skill alone. It is incredibily hard to make the perfect mmo where both pve and pvp are deep and meaningful.

We are however starting to see new mechanics addressing this (scaled pvp and downscaling pve levels to zones) but I haven't been impressed by them thus far and they tend to be incredibly flawed. Personally I'd like to see a game where your effective level scales with your area. As you gain in power you can explore farther away places with greater challenge but as you head into lower power areas your effective power scales down so even mobs still pose a threat 100 feet from noob towns. Noob zone bosses would still be such a challenge they would drop gear for your potential level and not noobs. This would stop camping for noob gear for alts or AH sales as well. The game would never have content you out level. Of course this would affect pvp as well. I can't see well geared players not having a slight edge over noobs due to experience and more class skills but a stat cap for your average geared player in those areas could help. NOTE of course that I mean seemless scaling and no zone hard lines.

I know GW2 has attempted this but the game is complete crap in my mind and has no open world pvp anyway. The entire point to scaling is for open world pvp in sandbox games where any space in the game is potential for equal and fair combat.

Originally posted by Yamota

It is quite simple really. Some people dont want to do PvP because it is hard, much harder than PvE. PvE mobs just stand there and wait to be farmed by people where as people are much more unpredictable and dificult to farm.

That being said, there certainly are negative elements associated to PvP, as seen in games like Eve. But like with most things, you take the good with the bad and for me PvE is far too boring for me to play exclusively. I need some PvP to challenge me and shake me up, AI dont do that.

There is so many wrong implicit assumption in that statement.

PvE is not challenging? That is just wrong. There are hard core raids in MMOs, monster level in Diablo 3. There are many examples of PvE encounters that you are just not likely to beat. In fact, it is much harder for me to beat Diablo on MP10, then head shooting some guy in PS2.

And you don't always need the ultra most challegning gameplay to have fun. What is wrong with mowing down mobs and feel powerful? Nothing if that is fun for you.

Originally posted by Yamota

It is quite simple really. Some people dont want to do PvP because it is hard, much harder than PvE. PvE mobs just stand there and wait to be farmed by people where as people are much more unpredictable and dificult to farm.

That being said, there certainly are negative elements associated to PvP, as seen in games like Eve. But like with most things, you take the good with the bad and for me PvE is far too boring for me to play exclusively. I need some PvP to challenge me and shake me up, AI dont do that.

There is an assumption in your post that does not address a major issue with mmo pvp. You said pvp is harder. In fact I have attempted such difficult pve challenges in many mmos (I love to test the extreme ability of my character) that the challenge dwarfed equal pvp. In fact I typically am very good at mmo pvp and if it has batteground style pvp with ranks I often rank top 3 with ease and sometimes #1 so far ahead of others I often wonder who the hell even showed up to fight.

The caveate: It has to be EQUAL pvp. Equal gear and level. The major issue is that this RARELY ever happens in an mmo. It only happens if a game has either no gear scaling (pretty much no mmo has this) or in ranked pvp instancing (so forget about open world pvp) which not all mmos have either. You talk about difficulty but there is a massive difference between it being harder to kill a player over a typical mob and having to kill a player who has 3 times the stats you do because they have end game gear and you don't. On top of this most mmos have different gear for pve and pvp so a player with BIS is still forced to be a total light weight  when starting pvp against the heavy weights of the game. The only way I see pvp equality is to have all server side calculations in pvp based on preset stats outside of whatever gear you have. I don't see most hardcore pvp'rs and especially the developer having the balls to do it.

It is that issue that turns many off pvp. They are never even given the chance to try it on equal terms. There is a reason we don't have a major fighting sport where non-athletes are thrown into a ring with a champion of their discipline. Imagine some 170lb man in decent shape but little experience thrown in with UFC fighter Alistair Overeem (google his pic if you don't know him) ... imagine the carnage. This is exactly what happens in mmo pvp on a daily basis.

Originally posted by gravesworn
From my perspective the open world pvp conundrum stems from pyschologicial point of view. The abundance of gamers have been breed in to a gaming culture that promotes what I refer to as the Hero syndrome. Everyone is essentially conditioned to believe they are a hero. Even in mmorpgs. You are a hero. The set up of gameplay mechanics in most games tries to support the over arcing fact that you are better than everyone or you are the only hope. Ect ect ect... This is why people dislike open world pvp. In such a senario you are not a badass hero that is better than everyone. In such a game, you have to earn a hero or badass status. Which is far more difficult to obtain from a pyschological stand point than it is if inherently given. Gamers for the most part have been conditioned to be counter open world pvpers over the years because of this gaming culture. I am not saying this fits everyone but I do feel that the dramatization of heroism is a large factor as why open world pvp is less accepted than other form of mmorpgs and games in general, and why it may be difficult to develop a pvp game in an mmorpg environment.

That is an interesting point. And that also explains why open world SP game is more popular than online game .. after all, it feels much better to be the chosen one in an open world (SKYRIM) than a lowly pilot that no one cares about (EvE).

Plus, it is more entertaining to be the hero.

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Originally posted by tort0429
Here we go again.   This argument is the most repeated argument on this site.  Why can't PVPers just leave PVEers alone and vice versa.  End of Argument.

 

We MMO gamers need to come up with something new to discuss.   The argument is past getting old.

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I totally agree.

Originally posted by Rayshe

 

Fight like a coward Die like a coward.

+1

Of course the idea of chivalry in a pvp environment is silly to begin with. It's simple human psycology, fight the fair (good) fight or fight the fight you know you can win (bad); people will (almost) always choose the fight they know they can win everytime. The Powell Doctrine shows this thinking in the real world: don't go to war with anything less than 3X what the enemy has. In MMO terms this means ganking, and I don't know anyone who enjoys being ganked.

This is why I only play games where pvp is something you have to accept challenge and instanced pvp. I don't wan't to pvp when I'm out trying to gather stuff for crafting or grinding for levels. When I do want to pvp it's at the place and time of my choosing. Why should I "fear" dieing in an illusionary world that has no real world concequences?

Originally posted by MsGamerlady

 

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Originally posted by tort0429
Here we go again.   This argument is the most repeated argument on this site.  Why can't PVPers just leave PVEers alone and vice versa.  End of Argument.

 

 

We MMO gamers need to come up with something new to discuss.   The argument is past getting old.

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I totally agree.

+1

if anyone is frightened its FFA full loot pvp'rs. every time a game has gone that route or had servers which did, those games and servers quickly became defunct or simply quiet as a graveyard. the FFA people have a game rebooting for them in DF but that's it. no mmo is willing to do it b/c the vast majority of players do not enjoy being forced to play their game the way someone else wants them to.

i am for pvp. i think SWG had a great system for that which included flagging oneself and being flagged for attacking opposing faction npcs/pcs.

i don't want to be forced into crafting or raiding or questing when i dont want to, why would i want to be forced into pvp?

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by CalmOceans

I don't think it has anything to do with anyone being scared of PVP, I never heard anyone ever say that, many hate PVP yes.

 

I don't like PVP because:

-the gameplay of PVP is 9 out of 10 time really really bad

-the PVP community is usually incredibly rude

-I have no time to deal with griefing little kids in an MMO

-There is never cooperation in PVP games, it's always one person or a handful of peope button mashing, no organised raids

-Many PVP players cry on the forum that classes aren't balanced because they get killed one-on-one, classes are not supposed to be balanced in PVE games that's what teamwork is for

-etc etc etc

Yup, the same goes for me.  I find, almost without exception, that active PvPers are total douchebags, especially in open-PVP games.  Even for the ones where it's totally consentual, I've had PvPers standing there yelling at random passersby, people who have their PvP flags off "you're a fucking pussy, come fight me!"

PvPers are assholes.  I don't want to play with assholes. 

Having played on the Fury server in AoC - my first real foray into OWPvP I have to say the shear number of people engaging in this kind of behaviour was depressing. There were no flags on that server - but the degree of ganking, corpse jumping, playground insults etc. was difficult for anyone with the slightest degree of maturity to understand ot tolerate for long. I very much enjoyed the OWPvP when it was lacking in such idiocy - in fact when a little roleplay was thrown in - e.g when two barbarians came up to my necromancer and started to insult me because they felt I was dishonouring the dead by reanimating them, I appreciated the ass kicking I got after I arrongantly laughed at them as fools. But alas, all too often OWPvP was tainted with shitty behaviour and didn't come close to such quality play.

The fact is, PvP players fall roughly into two camps (and yes, I know many bridge it too) - the ones who enjoy the challenge and playstyle, and the ones who get a buzz from one-sided encounters, ganking and endless insults afterwards - the kinds of people who will try their hardest to utterly ruin the online experience of other people and then wail endlessly if any controls are put in place - guards, consequence systems, flags etc.

The OP does seem to empathise with the latter type of player. Seriously thinking that a desire to avoid the 'borstal playground' bahaviour of such PvP players is an issue of 'fear' is clearly ridiculous. To think it is a factor is more of an indication of the mindset of the person asking the question than it will ever be of those refered to.

I think OWPvP is something which can enrich a game - but ONLY when the consequence system is effective and takes an eye for an eye apporach. If you set out to ruin the experience for another player by repeatedly ganking and griefing - the powerful and lawful NPC factions in the game should seriously punish you. Have a system where you accrue 'negative reputation' points based on how civilised an area is where you fight, how balanced the fight is and how much you gank or grief. Have these points slowly count down over time - so a little of such activity, and the innevitable accidents that will occur don't really matter - but repeat offending does.

Consequences then rack up rapidly if you don't stop doing it -  your sorry little PC gets arrested by guards and put in prison for an hour real time; you are fined substantial amounts of gold; reputable vendors won't trade with you for a week and for a month after everything costs double; you earn insults and catcalls from every normal NPC in the game for a month and a bounty system allows you to be hunted down and stomped on by every other PC in the game without them suffering any negative consequences and they get gold for delivering your head to local NPCs... with fatality emotes including spitting or urinating on your corpse.

THAT's what used to happen in the real world when things were a little less civilised, and it's the only thing that works...

... can you imagine the wailing about 'my game is ruined' from such people suffering payback under such circumstances!?

The only excuse to kill and kill without being punished is when you are at war or when nobody cares (such as in a lawless area). Put mechanisms in the game for this so war suspends the 'negative reputation system' and an understanding that certain areas in the game world are so wild and remote that banditry and murder in such areas will accrue far fewer negative reputation points, and OWPvP can occur - it just cannot become the purile joke it normally is.

Add to this a system where lawless areas can be made lawful by PC actions - and indeed where such areas can be changed back by the same - and you get a self-balancing system where player interraction is structured but both playstyles can be catered for.

Why I have impression that OP meant "real man do not pve, they pvp"? Actually ... real man do not play games at all.

For the rest, tried few times but discovered there are to many psychos in games. Is all down to kind of player one is. Have few friends that enjoy most jumping on throat of "enemy" when this one is already half life from mobs fight. Or killing player zillion levels below its own. On the other side I'm kind of person that will always help player in trouble, for me does not matter faction. In games I do not see this as in soccer match, or tennis match, ... that is fun, in games or in real life. Always loved that. Joy of pvp is more .. weird, twisted way of enjoying ruining somebody day. I'm simply not that kind of person.

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Originally posted by evilastro

You forgot the main reason people dont like OWPvP.

It is rarely 'fair'. OWPvP is too susceptible to unstoppable zergs. Run around with a group of 6 and what chance does 1 player stand against you? Get a raid of players and you can wipe out any small groups without breaking a sweat.

This is what happens when you get OWPvP. You dont get fair 1 one 1 fights, or even full group vs full group. Sure you get them sometimes against rogue characters, but the only reason they are engaging you 1 on 1 is because they know that they have the advantage from getting the jump on you.  More often than not you will get full groups of stealthed players hiding near PvE objectives simply to grief soloers and small groups.

Now your response is probably 'Well its a MMO, you should be grouping anyway'. Which is fair enough I guess, but these types of players wont engage anyone that would be a challenge or even a fair fight. They only engage when its obvious they will win. Which is why OWPvP is such a noxious beast and puts many PvE players off.

Instanced PvP on the other hand is optional. You cant be taken unaware and the numbers are evenly balanced. I wont say its always fair, but it has a lot more chance at being balanced than OWPvP. You mentioned that human controlled characters are harder to kill - fair point, but if you really enjoy the challenge of fighting another player, wouldnt it be better to do it in an instanced scenario where you know its a balanced fight?

While I have enjoyed OWPvP on a few games, often I just cant be bothered because I know it will turn into a senseless gankfest with no challenge whatsoever. You either steamroll or you get steamrolled, no skill needed. That's why I prefer instanced PvP seperate from the open world.

As said before, instanced pvp only provides the fight itself, the tactical aspect, but lacks the political/social/diplomatic/economic aspects provided by a mmo full of disputable resources in the open world and free pvp. BGs are like "colosseums" and OWPvP like a world where there is war and political disputes.

GW1 Factions had political/social/economic aspects tied to its regional battles, which were all instanced. Guilds and factions would take control over the map changing what content was accessable to members of your faction.  Granted there was nothing diplomatic about it.

Back to the OP, GW1 is by far the best example of PvP in a RPG.  Granted its a more of a Co Op RPG, not really a MMO.  Whole team builds and strategy were meaningful. You werent better than anyone because you spent 100 hours and they have only spent 10. You were better because you worked as a team. Thats what a MMO should be about, working as a team, not outgearing / outleveling someone else.