Originally posted by TheScavenger

Originally posted by stealthbr

Originally posted by Loktofeit

@Stealth, you really need to learn there is a significant difference between "an example" and "some stuff I just made up to prove my point."

You, sir, are hilarious!

[mod edit]

So people telling you calmly and reasonably that they disagree, and then pointing why they disagree is trolling.

Gotcha.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Originally posted by stealthbr

Originally posted by Loktofeit

@Stealth, you really need to learn there is a significant difference between "an example" and "some stuff I just made up to prove my point."

You, sir, are hilarious!

[mod edit]

So people telling you calmly and reasonably that they disagree, and then pointing why they disagree is trolling.

Gotcha.

Subtly, but yes. No one right in the head, or maybe if they just have more money than sense...is going to be okay with developers purposely removing content, to re-sale as day 1 DLC.

And luckily, many agree...because said DLC becomes heavily pirated, and/or the game gets horrid reviews (especially on Metacritic)...and while some here may not agree with metacritic...many developers do.

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Originally posted by stealthbr

Originally posted by Loktofeit

@Stealth, you really need to learn there is a significant difference between "an example" and "some stuff I just made up to prove my point."

You, sir, are hilarious!

He and that other dude have been trolling my thread about freemiums too. They are obviously trolling to get a rise out of us. No one can really be okay with day 1 DLCs that were purposely removed out of the original release game AND also call it an improvement...

So people telling you calmly and reasonably that they disagree, and then pointing why they disagree is trolling.

Gotcha.

Subtly, but yes. No one right in the head, or maybe if they just have more money than sense...is going to be okay with developers purposely removing content, to re-sale as day 1 DLC.

 

And luckily, many agree...because said DLC becomes heavily pirated, and/or the game gets horrid reviews (especially on Metacritic)...and while some here may not agree with metacritic...many developers do.

"No one in their right head".  Meaning that only people that agree with you are in their right head - interesting. 

This is as good as our grandparents saying, "all right thinking people" only to be wrong later on. 

I pointed out 2 reasons earlier. 

Making a hypothetical situation doesn't prove a point.

Like I said, luckily many agree that Day 1 DLC is a horrible practice. Which then gets said company a sh! ton of horrible reviews on Metacritics and increases piracy by...well I'm not going to throw out a number...but by a lot. At least, that is #1 reason I see when a day 1 DLC is released. And many developers have even lost their jobs over it (the metacritic reviews). 

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Like I said, luckily many agree that Day 1 DLC is a horrible practice. Which then gets said company a sh! ton of horrible reviews on Metacritics and increases piracy by...well I'm not going to throw out a number...but by a lot. At least, that is #1 reason I see when a day 1 DLC is released. And many developers have even lost their jobs over it (the metacritic reviews). 

Do you actually have evidence or a bunch of people ranting on the internet?

If day 1 DLC is so horrible, why are people still buying them? It is a free market.

But we are not talking abotu day 1 DLC, but freemium game, and THAT is certainly a good idea.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Like I said, luckily many agree that Day 1 DLC is a horrible practice. Which then gets said company a sh! ton of horrible reviews on Metacritics and increases piracy by...well I'm not going to throw out a number...but by a lot. At least, that is #1 reason I see when a day 1 DLC is released. And many developers have even lost their jobs over it (the metacritic reviews). 

Do you actually have evidence or a bunch of people ranting on the internet?

If day 1 DLC is so horrible, why are people still buying them? It is a free market.

But we are not talking abotu day 1 DLC, but freemium game, and THAT is certainly a good idea.

ok

Day 1 DLC shows an utter disregard for the player as a consumer. It shows you had something ready for the game but you held it back to rake in some extra cash.

If we are talking DLC in a MMO I am a bit puzzeled as to what you mean, if you mean a MMO has a cash shop with DLC on day one well my argument above does not apply. When it comes to cash shop DLC it is all down to game changing and P2W, as long as the DLC is not like that it I would expect a cash shop to be up and ready on day one. 

Originally posted by RandomDown

Originally posted by fenistil
So basically what you say is that consumers should never criticize business model?

Vocal criticism doesn't mean much if it is still a profitable behavior. The gaming community at large decried the always online DRM that D3 utilized but look at how it sold. The fact of the matter is complaining is not criticism, its just complaining. When a person says they should have access to all the content completely free AND that noone should get an advantage for providing revenue to the company, its completely absurd. That is what I am referring to, and it is not an uncommon "criticism" of the model that there are power gaps and content gates for people who don't pay anything into the game at all.

I agree with one thing.  Vocal criticism does not matter much if at all.  Alot of people criticise / complain about some game busienss model or about some game additions to cash shop but still play this game.   I agree that that it is silly behaviour. 

ONLY real method to show that you don't like certain business model is quitting said game (or games) permanently. Doing it fast also. Simple as that.   Voicing critiscism may help certain person vent their anger - but then I ask why play game with business model that make you angry in first place?  

Imo critisising is nothing bad BUT criticising itself does not change anything.   People that complain about business model or that cash shop in their beloved game went p2w AND still play are silly.   Yes I said it.

I have voted with my feet and I come to complain on here. That good enough? I would have played TSW or GW2 after I finished SWTOR, but the state MMO's are in made me tell friends you go on without me.

Next year when I think those two supposedly "AAA" releases have had enough updates I will pick one and play it. More importantly than my own stance on MMO's there is a general principle to follow. Do not Preorder. It is that simple really, it is because so many players preorder that gaming companies think they can get away with anything.

When it comes to F2P you don't preorder, here I would only say don't platy the beta. You are going to play it for free anyway so why on earth play the beta? Just like with a sub MMO, if you play the beta you will get jaded more quickly and want to leave.

@Scot

I agree that pre-ordering generally isn't a good idea.  I only pre-order or support development when I'm willing to risk throwing the money away.  Generally I always do a free trial of an mmo if I'm just picking it up.  Since I mostly play F2P games that isn't a problem.

I only beta test games that I care about.  I really only give any feedback about a game I care about.  So I do beta test F2P games.  I'm beta testing and have financially supported City of Steam in its development.  At this point I'm supporting the development of a game and community I really like.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Like I said, luckily many agree that Day 1 DLC is a horrible practice. Which then gets said company a sh! ton of horrible reviews on Metacritics and increases piracy by...well I'm not going to throw out a number...but by a lot. At least, that is #1 reason I see when a day 1 DLC is released. And many developers have even lost their jobs over it (the metacritic reviews). 

Do you actually have evidence or a bunch of people ranting on the internet?

If day 1 DLC is so horrible, why are people still buying them? It is a free market.

But we are not talking abotu day 1 DLC, but freemium game, and THAT is certainly a good idea.

Agreed. The Scav seems to have switched the discussion to something completely different, yet still not providing any data or information to support even this new, and completely unrelated, argument.

Purchasable content and services at release is almost mandatory for a freemium game. Not having it would be a red flag that something is up with the game.

Originally posted by Scot

I have voted with my feet and I come to complain on here. That good enough? I would have played TSW or GW2 after I finished SWTOR, but the state MMO's are in made me tell friends you go on without me.

Next year when I think those two supposedly "AAA" releases have had enough updates I will pick one and play it. More importantly than my own stance on MMO's there is a general principle to follow. Do not Preorder. It is that simple really, it is because so many players preorder that gaming companies think they can get away with anything.

When it comes to F2P you don't preorder, here I would only say don't platy the beta. You are going to play it for free anyway so why on earth play the beta? Just like with a sub MMO, if you play the beta you will get jaded more quickly and want to leave.

Like he said, depends how quickly you did it =P. In all seriousness though, you aren't presenting it as "crticism" of the industry or its practices in a sort of fair and biased stance. You say you dislike this game because of X reasons, which is a valid way to do it. The issue I take are people who say "the market doens't this or that" when the exact games they are talking about using this model do more than well enough to recoup their investment.

Originally posted by Scot

Day 1 DLC shows an utter disregard for the player as a consumer. It shows you had something ready for the game but you held it back to rake in some extra cash.

If we are talking DLC in a MMO I am a bit puzzeled as to what you mean, if you mean a MMO has a cash shop with DLC on day one well my argument above does not apply. When it comes to cash shop DLC it is all down to game changing and P2W, as long as the DLC is not like that it I would expect a cash shop to be up and ready on day one. 

And? I don't play games because i feel the dev loves me. I play games because they are good entertainment. If a game is super fun, why shouldn't i buy it even if it has a day 1 dlc? If a game is not to my liking, why would i care even if the dev gives it to me, and beg me to play it?

And the DLC talk is just red herring and has nothing to do with MMOs.

Originally posted by Scot

When it comes to F2P you don't preorder, here I would only say don't platy the beta. You are going to play it for free anyway so why on earth play the beta? Just like with a sub MMO, if you play the beta you will get jaded more quickly and want to leave.

I never pre-order, MMO or not, except Diablo 3. There is very few games that i am sure i want to play. It is much better to read about it first, and wait till there are some reviews.

And F2P is great precisely because you can jump in and play to see how the game is.

And so what if i want to leave, it is not like there aren't more games to play.

Nariusseldon, we sometimes do things in life not because of how we feel about the item or issue but because of what it tells us about the person, company or organisation involved in the issue. If a company is releasing DLC on day one in a solo game they are taking the piss. They could have incorporated this into the game but show they just want to milk as much money out of you as they can. This is acting on principle rather than how I feel aout the DLC itself. Obviously we are not talking about MMO’s here.

Now a business is there to make a profit, but you can make huge profits without resorting to to ripping customers off. I don’t expect the devs or anyone else in a gaming company to love me and I would point to management as making this sort of decision anyway. I do expect them to play fair, and DLC on day one is putting two fingers up to the gaming public.

When it comes to MMO’s, DLC is a different ball game. We need DLC to sustain interest, but players also need to realise you can’t pump out DLC that fast. This is why I said from day one that TSW’s announcement about how much they would put out each month was unfeasible and players should not expect that much every month anyway.

Originally posted by Scot

Nariusseldon, we sometimes do things in life not because of how we feel about the item or issue but because of what it tells us about the person, company or organisation involved in the issue. If a company is releasing DLC on day one in a solo game they are taking the piss. They could have incorporated this into the game but show they just want to milk as much money out of you as they can. This is acting on principle rather than how I feel aout the DLC itself. Obviously we are not talking about MMO’s here.

Now a business is there to make a profit, but you can make huge profits without resorting to to ripping customers off. I don’t expect the devs or anyone else in a gaming company to love me and I would point to management as making this sort of decision anyway. I do expect them to play fair, and DLC on day one is putting two fingers up to the gaming public.

When it comes to MMO’s, DLC is a different ball game. We need DLC to sustain interest, but players also need to realise you can’t pump out DLC that fast. This is why I said from day one that TSW’s announcement about how much they would put out each month was unfeasible and players should not expect that much every month anyway.

 I don't think that that is necessarily ripping people off, it's just a different model, one that has a price for the basic system with prices for additional optional systems.  That is how our phone, internet, TV, insurance, car... all these systems work that way.  Paying the basic price gives you the basic system (the game), paying the extra's gives you a bit more.

Same model that works well in our society with great success.  I don't mind games doing this.

Originally posted by Scot

Nariusseldon, we sometimes do things in life not because of how we feel about the item or issue but because of what it tells us about the person, company or organisation involved in the issue. If a company is releasing DLC on day one in a solo game they are taking the piss. They could have incorporated this into the game but show they just want to milk as much money out of you as they can. This is acting on principle rather than how I feel aout the DLC itself. Obviously we are not talking about MMO’s here.

So you will not buy any game with day 1 dlc no matter how good the game is? Just because of this "principle"? The fact that day 1 dlc works, mean that not many people have this principle.

Personally i don't care (on this .. not that i ignore intention in all walks of life .. but we are talking about entertainment here) .. so i guess we act accordingly.

Now a business is there to make a profit, but you can make huge profits without resorting to to ripping customers off. I don’t expect the devs or anyone else in a gaming company to love me and I would point to management as making this sort of decision anyway. I do expect them to play fair, and DLC on day one is putting two fingers up to the gaming public.

"ripping customer off" .. if i voluntary pay a sum of money for an amount of entertainment that i expect, it is not ripping off. It is not like we don't know what is include in the game, and what not (day 1 dlc). It is ony a rip off if something is promised but not delivered, and obviously NOT in case of day 1 dlc.

What is not fair. It is their resource making the DLC ... it is your choice whether to buy it. No one twist your arm to buy the DLC nor the game.

When it comes to MMO’s, DLC is a different ball game. We need DLC to sustain interest, but players also need to realise you can’t pump out DLC that fast. This is why I said from day one that TSW’s announcement about how much they would put out each month was unfeasible and players should not expect that much every month anyway.

Now THAT is rippipng customers off giving false promises. As long as a company put out accurate information about what is included in the price, it is fair game.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Scot

Nariusseldon, we sometimes do things in life not because of how we feel about the item or issue but because of what it tells us about the person, company or organisation involved in the issue. If a company is releasing DLC on day one in a solo game they are taking the piss. They could have incorporated this into the game but show they just want to milk as much money out of you as they can. This is acting on principle rather than how I feel aout the DLC itself. Obviously we are not talking about MMO’s here.

Now a business is there to make a profit, but you can make huge profits without resorting to to ripping customers off. I don’t expect the devs or anyone else in a gaming company to love me and I would point to management as making this sort of decision anyway. I do expect them to play fair, and DLC on day one is putting two fingers up to the gaming public.

When it comes to MMO’s, DLC is a different ball game. We need DLC to sustain interest, but players also need to realise you can’t pump out DLC that fast. This is why I said from day one that TSW’s announcement about how much they would put out each month was unfeasible and players should not expect that much every month anyway.

 I don't think that that is necessarily ripping people off, it's just a different model, one that has a price for the basic system with prices for additional optional systems.  That is how our phone, internet, TV, insurance, car... all these systems work that way.  Paying the basic price gives you the basic system (the game), paying the extra's gives you a bit more.

Same model that works well in our society with great success.  I don't mind games doing this.

True, but I don't want single player game as a service. Why? It drives cost up for full experience, it is bothersome, it frequently break immersion (like NPC in rpg game telling you to buy DLC to get what he's offering - example DA:O). 

It is enough hassle, cost and problem to deal with that in mmorpg's.   Single player games and increasing amount of games overall like rising amount of multiplauyer / co-op games having that turn me off and actually make me spend LESS and look for entertaiment that is not so hmm serviced.

I only accept in example continious subsciption in mmorpg's and it de-facto being a service because there is no other realistic way to finance it.   Thing is I don't want to play only mmorpg's. Don't really have time or willingness to play more than one. 

So all games going that route will mean that my gaming interest will continue to dwindle.  I don't want to deal with that much amount of services in my life and I don't want to permanently increase budget understood as % of my income I do spend on gaming. 

Originally posted by fenistil

 

True, but I don't want single player game as a service. Why? It drives cost up for full experience, it is bothersome, it frequently break immersion (like NPC in rpg game telling you to buy DLC to get what he's offering - example DA:O). 

So? That does not mean that it is unethical. I want zero tax, and my bank don't charge me interests on my mortage too. I can't have everything. It is a free market. If you don't like it, don't play it.

It is enough hassle, cost and problem to deal with that in mmorpg's.   Single player games and increasing amount of games overall like rising amount of multiplauyer / co-op games having that turn me off and actually make me spend LESS and look for entertaiment that is not so hmm serviced.

Once again, you can find something else to do. Personally it boils down to how fun a game is.

I only accept in example continious subsciption in mmorpg's and it de-facto being a service because there is no other realistic way to finance it.   Thing is I don't want to play only mmorpg's. Don't really have time or willingness to play more than one. 

That is obviously false since F2P, and B2P are too existing and successful ways to finance MMOs.

So all games going that route will mean that my gaming interest will continue to dwindle.  I don't want to deal with that much amount of services in my life and I don't want to permanently increase budget understood as % of my income I do spend on gaming. 

Me me me ... sure .. that means that YOUR gaming interests will continue to dwindle. All of us want free, and hassle free stuff too. Be realistic.

People don't let you have everything don't mean they are unethical. Personally, there are enough cheap entertainment around. If you cannot deal with some DLCs, may be you need a different hobby.

meh...  got to hand it to the f2p system in planetside 2. You're just as capable as everyone else without spending a single dime and you don't even notice you have to pay for anything until you try to get a new gun (or armor/cammo/anything). Then it's farm certs for a week, or pay $7-$10... Doesn't help that you can't really try the guns out so if you don't like the gun, well just pony up more cash. Not to mention all the other crap that's available. 

It's smart, because it doesn't force you to buy shit, it just makes it really hard for folks who have no restraint (which is prob like 80% of the market these days...) to choose the time sink. So yeah, them bastards know their stuff and while I hate the system, I know it could be a lot worse and it'll likely be pretty successful.