Originally posted by zimboy69

full loot pvp  is amazing if your the one  winning the moment your the one losing it feels sucky

 

and even more so if your always losing (just like me)you might as well just not play

 

a example was me in planetside 2 i die 12 times for each kill i get   now  i just dont play as its just not fun  spending almost the whole game running to locations getiing  killed the moment i turn up

and if it had full loot  i wouldnt have played past 5 mins

 

the biggest problem with full loot  or all games in general is it  rewards  the good or best players with better equipment  when  the players who really need  help are the ones who die all the time

 

its just like wow and its tread mill of  equipment  and the best get the best weapons

 

a handicap system would encourage people to play  

players with a bigger handicap could have braggin rights  bigger reputations than players who  had better equipment

 

and if i really thought i was a great pvp  then winning with equipment worse than my oponent would give me greater satisfaction than winning knowing that its my  super equipment that  won it for me  and not my skill 

You are a prime example, instead of fighting and dieing you should simply avoid PvP or go in groups. To me it soundfs like you play alone most of the time ( massiveMULITPLAYER) and die. 

I talk about MMORPGs like darkfall here and not PS2 which only has PvPbut even in PS2 a group would help.

It is simply casual people who don't like risk that avoid open PvP with loot instead of seeing the fun in it and the actual value of items ( each item is a fixed amount of time, you can optimize the time needed and be proud of yourself that you can farm mob X much faster to get item X much faster unlike others)

I don't see the point in logging in to guild wars or WoW and raid the same dungeon over and over only to reach some number, which is in many cases even luck based. Or meaningless PvP in which i have to kill X amount of enemies to get item X.....and than its my item until the next big patch comes. Fucking boring

To me, PvP is just like a tabletop.

I throw a 3 and kick your ass to respawn.

Nowadays, people seem to identify way to mutch with their charakters.

Thats because we are dumb.

We can not associate ourselfs to this:

but like this:

and i think, the reason why people do that is, because the reality is more like this

then it could be like that

PvP is A GAME ^^

It should really be entirely obvious that full looting PvP is entirely incompatible with a truly successful MMO without a heavy-hitting and emminently workable consequences system.

Until that is invented - full loot MMOs will always be small-beer and popular only with the ganking crowd and/or niche gamers, and thus not attractive to game companies looking to actually make some serious profit.

Originally posted by zimboy69

full loot pvp  is amazing if your the one  winning the moment your the one losing it feels sucky

 and even more so if your always losing (just like me)you might as well just not play

 a example was me in planetside 2 i die 12 times for each kill i get   now  i just dont play as its just not fun  spending almost the whole game running to locations getiing  killed the moment i turn up

and if it had full loot  i wouldnt have played past 5 mins

 the biggest problem with full loot  or all games in general is it  rewards  the good or best players with better equipment  when  the players who really need  help are the ones who die all the time

 its just like wow and its tread mill of  equipment  and the best get the best weapons

 a handicap system would encourage people to play  

players with a bigger handicap could have braggin rights  bigger reputations than players who  had better equipment

 and if i really thought i was a great pvp  then winning with equipment worse than my oponent would give me greater satisfaction than winning knowing that its my  super equipment that  won it for me  and not my skill

So basically what you're saying is that you want to play Call of Duty? 

You forgot the main reason people dont like OWPvP.

It is rarely 'fair'. OWPvP is too susceptible to unstoppable zergs. Run around with a group of 6 and what chance does 1 player stand against you? Get a raid of players and you can wipe out any small groups without breaking a sweat.

This is what happens when you get OWPvP. You dont get fair 1 one 1 fights, or even full group vs full group. Sure you get them sometimes against rogue characters, but the only reason they are engaging you 1 on 1 is because they know that they have the advantage from getting the jump on you.  More often than not you will get full groups of stealthed players hiding near PvE objectives simply to grief soloers and small groups.

Now your response is probably 'Well its a MMO, you should be grouping anyway'. Which is fair enough I guess, but these types of players wont engage anyone that would be a challenge or even a fair fight. They only engage when its obvious they will win. Which is why OWPvP is such a noxious beast and puts many PvE players off.

Instanced PvP on the other hand is optional. You cant be taken unaware and the numbers are evenly balanced. I wont say its always fair, but it has a lot more chance at being balanced than OWPvP. You mentioned that human controlled characters are harder to kill - fair point, but if you really enjoy the challenge of fighting another player, wouldnt it be better to do it in an instanced scenario where you know its a balanced fight?

While I have enjoyed OWPvP on a few games, often I just cant be bothered because I know it will turn into a senseless gankfest with no challenge whatsoever. You either steamroll or you get steamrolled, no skill needed. That's why I prefer instanced PvP seperate from the open world.

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

My first mmos played (UO and L2) had open PVP and it was regarded as essential part of the enviroment, indispensable to the social, political and economic dynamics of the virtual world.

I don't agree with your first sentence.

MMOs that try to simulate a "realistic" political and social enviroment needs open pvp. PVP with predefined factions took from the players the control of who is friend/ally or enemy, which damages the political/social/diplomatic challenge. Sandboxes have much resources in the OW that need to be disputed. They could do a "siege system" to all of them (including a mob spot), but the amount of disputable resources is so huge that is easier let the pvp open and free. :D

Nonsense.   MMOs need PvP to the same degree that they need outhouses.

Or, to put it another way, there is absolutely nothing realistic about a political or social environment where you can respawn or make a new character.  Whatever rules we put in place, we are chosing to create an environment that emphasizes and rewards particular playstyles.  From my point of view, PvP is completely unrealistic representation of the expectations and consequences that characters would face in their lives and non-PvP play is *more* realistic because it represents the sum of all the social, legal and moral restraints that keep people from randomly being idiots towards each other.  Trying to simulate the entire process of enforcing codes of conduct amongst players in order to maintain a semblence of respect is as interesting to me as forcing simulated bathroom breaks along the adventure.

Originally posted by evilastro

You forgot the main reason people dont like OWPvP.

It is rarely 'fair'. OWPvP is too susceptible to unstoppable zergs. Run around with a group of 6 and what chance does 1 player stand against you? Get a raid of players and you can wipe out any small groups without breaking a sweat.

This is what happens when you get OWPvP. You dont get fair 1 one 1 fights, or even full group vs full group. Sure you get them sometimes against rogue characters, but the only reason they are engaging you 1 on 1 is because they know that they have the advantage from getting the jump on you.  More often than not you will get full groups of stealthed players hiding near PvE objectives simply to grief soloers and small groups.

Now your response is probably 'Well its a MMO, you should be grouping anyway'. Which is fair enough I guess, but these types of players wont engage anyone that would be a challenge or even a fair fight. They only engage when its obvious they will win. Which is why OWPvP is such a noxious beast and puts many PvE players off.

Instanced PvP on the other hand is optional. You cant be taken unaware and the numbers are evenly balanced. I wont say its always fair, but it has a lot more chance at being balanced than OWPvP. You mentioned that human controlled characters are harder to kill - fair point, but if you really enjoy the challenge of fighting another player, wouldnt it be better to do it in an instanced scenario where you know its a balanced fight?

While I have enjoyed OWPvP on a few games, often I just cant be bothered because I know it will turn into a senseless gankfest with no challenge whatsoever. You either steamroll or you get steamrolled, no skill needed. That's why I prefer instanced PvP seperate from the open world.

Have a consequences system which locks down vendors and makes scaling numbers of guards attack criminals (i.e. those who do this sort of stuff) - and which allows bounties for both PvP AND NPC mob hits against criminals and this could be managed. Put in 'lawless' areas where criminal status could not be 'accrued' by PvP activity and there you are - both playstyles catered for.

There should NEVER however, be player looting in anything but a niche PvP-only game - hybrids should reward by a drop system.

Why, you ask? Maybe because it jumps on people from the dark yelling: I'm the scary pvp! :)

But seriously, what's the point, Adam had an editorial a few month ago about pvp... you could just post it on there.

But since we're here already posting, my 2 cents: I like playing against players, but I never touch pvp in mmorpgs, because it's worthless in my eyes. If we play a boardgame / cards / turn-based strategies, and the smarter, wittier one wins, that's ok. If we play an action game, CS, Quake, or even paintball / airsoft, and the most skillful and tactical player (in 1v1) and team (in overall) wins, that's also ok.

But in an mmo, where the upper class (if the game has a rock-paper-scissor system), or simply the higher level, or the better gear (even worse if that advantage comes from a cash shop) decides the outcome and not the brain or the skills, that is worthless. In both end of it, I mean if I'm the range who kites and shots down the melee, it's the same worthless to me.

It takes effort and it's a real sense of victory to outsmart or skilled an another player who has the same options as you. In mmo's it takes nothing to grind up levels or gear, only time. And to be honest, that's not a quality which worth beating... "I have much more time to waste on grinding than you" - good for you, enjoy your pvp :)

A great pic from the aformentioned editorial which talks it more clearly:

:)

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Originally posted by Vorthanion
I have a feeling you are already wrong on your basic presumption that people avoid PvP out of fear.  If most are like me, it's due to irritation, asshats and cheaters / hackers.

Maybe i have chosen wrong the term (English is not my native language). When i said "scared", i dint mean something like the "dread" of horror movies, but only the "mistrust" or "dismay"  that some people seens to demonstrate and speak when knowing that some game will have no-restricted pvp.

Use the word distaste or disgust and you'll be more on the spot.

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Originally posted by SvendSvin

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Some people (i dont know if the majority or no) wanna play a mmo to just  "relax" and do unchallenging things as pastime, like knitting.

Unchallenging?? Really??

PVE can be every bit as challenging as PVP can be..  Just like knitting can be challenging.. I dare you to knit a sweater with a 99% accurate WOW logo and tell me it isn't challenging.. It's all about what kind of a challenge you want!!

Knitting is not challenging, is only toilsome and prolonged. The only challenge is on learning, after this, some people can knit with closed eyes.

That is your opinion, not a fact.. The exact same goes for PVP.. The only challenge is in learning how to play, after that it's just rinse and repeat.. You might not be able to play with your eyes closed, but that is because the visuals are a key component in games..

But what i really got from reading your post is that you are calling PVE'rs lame, docile cattle, who can do nothing except eat whatever is put in front of them.. While the PVP'rs are the real gamers, who got the skills and can make/get their on rewards..

I'm sorry, but this just sounds like another way to boost the PVP epeen to me..

In most cases, PVP is harder and challenging than PVE, but not all people wants challenge in a mmo or any game, and i respect that.

But the challenge dont comes only from the pvp fight itself, it also comes from political, social, diplomatic and economic enviromnent that a mmo full of disputable resources allows.

Pure bullshit.. You don't repect it, otherwise you wouldn't compare PVE to the most boring thing you can think of and keep calling PVE'rs second rate gamers..

And it's still not a fact that PVP is harder or more challenging.. PVE is just as hard and challenging, just in different ways from PVP.. And that is what it all comes down to, people like different kinds of challenge and i think that is what you fail to understand.. Or is it that you don't want to understand??

Just accept the fact that we are not all the same and not everyone enjoys PVP..

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

My first mmos played (UO and L2) had open PVP and it was regarded as essential part of the enviroment, indispensable to the social, political and economic dynamics of the virtual world. People in almost totality did all the other things provided by the server (pve, craft, etc) preparing to pvp in search of resources, domains, ownerships of castles/fortress/territorys, glory, respect, rivalry, revenge, fun and etc.

I only made contact with people that hate PVP after joining WoW and reading foruns. This was a novelty to me and let me very intrigued and curious about the reasons of the people that avoid PVP. Reading opinions and various texts in the internet, i saw that this population "pvp-hater" can be subdivided in 2 categories: people that likes or is indiferent to pvp itself, but hates the "free pvp" ("open world FFA pvp") and people that are truly scared of any type of pvp, even the structured. I came to a conclusion about the ultimate (or primary) causes that make PVP be disliked by some  people:

 

That assumption is only because you played UO and L2 I played Everquest so your point of view is not relevant to me. It is only because initially the games within the MMORPG sphere were limited. Even then with Trammel even UO changed. So your whole premise is a personal experience and not facts you would like to extrapolate. Crafting,interaction ,political and social structure worked remarkably well in Everquest and Everquest players from 1999 can attest to this. Guilds gained glory by downing dragons and that victory was sweet to be server firsts. I think your narrow view is not one held by those of us who played Everquest as our first MMORPG.

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Originally posted by DSWBeef
Its not that im against pvp. Im against full loot FORCED pvp. Thats the main reason I dont play MO or DF. I shouldnt be forced into entering a pvp situation. Thats why I enjoy pve servers, I can pvp When I choose to. I also prefer large scale battles or RVR type battles. Single or small group engagements to me are not exciting.

So, you fits the item 1 described in the text.

AHH no. What it means is PvP should be situational and if you want to fine. But people shouldn't be forced to do anything if they don't want to.

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

All the answers fits the itens exposed in the text (i am still in page 5, i will still read the others). A interesting fact about the gank is the difference between WoW (a paradigm of the themepark mmo pve focused) with Lineage 2 (a mmo famous be its free pvp): in WoW, althought half of the server cant kill you, a lv 85 can kill a lv 1 with TOTAL impunity! In L2,  is VERY risky a high level PK a player with lower lv because of a karma (bigger in proportion to the lv disparity) that can make him drops his gear that took months to get.

So, paradoxically, WoW is more "gank-friendly" than L2 althougt hasn't FFA pvp.

The example of WoW can "obscure" the mind of most people about ganking, because is RARE a mmo where gank is so unpunished as in WoW.

 

You keep overlooking one main reason that almost everyone mentioned. The fact that people don't want to deal with rudeness, ill-will, hatred in an MMO. And that is what open world FFA PvP brings, it attracts the awfullest type of players. I'm not saying that every PvPer is like that, only a small part of them...but that small part is which ruins the games for the majority.

I followed Xsyon (sandbox open world full loot FFA PvP) during beta. When the word got out about the game the forum blew up with new players, who came from DF and ex-Shadowbane players. I've never seen more disgusting posts than then. There was a guy who stated that he is not even interested in the game, he only wants to play 'politics' on the forum...that meant the he started to spread flat out lies and libels about others, was trying to turn friends and friendly clans against each others and so on. I literally felt sick of his posts and his strategy and decided that I never want to spend my free time with people like him. It was obnoxious. And the game was only in beta then !

When these people realized that the game won't be so free PvP as they hoped for they left. I feel sorry for the next game they jump to.

People are scared of PVP...like...scared? Really?

No, I don't think so, it is just how diehards label anyone with different taste.

Nothing wrong with PvP - it's just PvP in MMOs that usually sucks.

Majority of the time-

1. Person who is higher level / has more skills wins (veterans always win)

2. Person with better gear / stats wins

3. Group with more bodies to throw at the fight wins

4. Most of the time you never find PvP in Open World when you want to, yet it always finds you when you don't want to (and the person(s) who find you are higher level/better geared/more of them.)

It sucks on BOTH ends - it sucks being the victim and it also sucks after being fun for maybe 10 minutes to prey on the weak.

Fair fights in terms of numbers, gear, levels is a good starting point - then it usually comes down to skill and coordination - so it's more fun IMO in the long term.

That being said...

Some of my absolute favorite PvP memories from the games of old have been from open world PvP - but the rare maybe 5% of the time 1-4 above aren't true and you have this epic, amazing fight.... the other 95% of the time OWPVP is just lame.

Grinding the same BGs / Arena over and over can be just as lame if not MORE lame, as you maybe have 5-10% good/fun/exciting games and 90-95% either steam rolling or getting steam rolled.

Moral of the story - PvP in MMOs generally just sucks. Period.

So if I get the option to choose where and when I want to PvP, which is rarely, I will always prefer that to forced PvP in OWPVP.

I grew up as a gamer and MMOer with PvP in games like UO and SWG and in WoW before there were BG's...

I'm totally over that.

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

I came to a conclusion about the ultimate (or primary) causes that make PVP be disliked by some  people:

1- PVE characters stays in certain spots waiting to be approached, while players can come to you.

2- Human-controled characters is much more harder to defeat in 99% of the time.

3- In most mmos, PVE offfers more guaranteed rewards.

In summary: pvp requires more work, attention and skill to be handled (either fighting, fleeing, dodging or avoiding) and not always gives valuable rewards to tempt the people turned away by these requirements.

The points are correct, the conclusion is wrong.

Points 1 and 2 are the same - mobs are static and easy. Point 3 is part of the reason for that. For most MMO gamers, the mobs are a means to their goal - the goal being advancement. Fighting mobs in and of itself is not a primary goal for most players. An example of this is how many TERA players found the Bigg Ass Monsters (BAMs) very fun earlier on when they were a small part of leveling, but in the areas where they are primary content, many avoid it or look to get past it as fast as possible.

In PvP, the battle is the goal for the PvPer and an obstacle to one's goal for the PvE player. The challenges and objectives the PvE player is working toward in their PvE experience is greatly different from the challenges presented when a PvP player intervenes.

"My first mmos played (UO and L2) had open PVP and it was regarded as essential part of the enviroment, indispensable to the social, political and economic dynamics of the virtual world."

You are part of that 20% or so that engages in that activity. That is why you see it as essential and indispensable. You more than likely have not had much contact with people on the other side or experienced the other side, which would explain why after so many years you are writing this post, mystified about the playstyle of the other 80% or so of the playerbase. Your follow up posts reinforce this, as it is clear it isn't so much that you disagree with what others are presenting, rather playstyles outside of your own are so foreign to you taht you seem to be having trouble undertsanding them. Until such a time when PvPers are having their PvP experience ruined by someone baking bread at them, the gamers who engage primarily in FFA PVP will maintain a general disconnect with the rest of the playerbase's perspective on how different playstyles impact gameplay.

 In short, they are not afraid of PVP or PVPers, they are simply playing a different game than you are.

@ the OP:

Seriously dude? If you honestly thought these people were "afraid" of PvP, then listing the benefits would be moronic. "Oh, you're afraid of flying? I can cure that. Planes make our lives so much easier since they......."

Yea, yet another PvP troll trying to show off how badass he is by insulting those who prefer to engage in the storyline etc.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Until such a time when PvPers are having their PvP experience ruined by someone baking bread at them, the gamers who engage primarily in FFA PVP will maintain a general disconnect with the rest of the playerbase's perspective on how different playstyles impact gameplay.

 

I can imagine that now.  Two groups of players are having an epic PvP battle when all of a sudden a baker jumps out of nowhere, throws his food products at teh combatants and all of a sudden all of the PvP are sittign around drinking tea and eating crumpets.

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

[...]

In summary: pvp requires more work, attention and skill to be handled (either fighting, fleeing, dodging or avoiding) and not always gives valuable rewards to tempt the people turned away by these requirements.

I'd say in the first place it'll be more work for the devs to do PVP right. You seem to forget that NPC ganking usually never happens cause NPCs are easiely controlled, not only by strength but also by numbers. In short: devs need to find ways to block all forms of ganking. You mentioned the time where you started playing MMOs with UO. Somehow I managed to miss this golden age of MMOs but from hearsay I've got the impression that players where more roleplayers at these times, at least in one or the other form and stupid mindless ganking would have been considered infamous and fishy. Now honestly, look at the majority of nowadays players... know what I mean? Today it's even possible to get ganked (and then laughed at) in the training room (so happened a year ago in Asheron's Call). I'd say too many stupid raging kids have infested the scene.

edit: don't get me wrong, AC's community is fine in general. Never happened again to me while *in* the game.