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General Discussion  » What bugs me about GW2 how it's combat makes me feel weak

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92 posts found
  User Deleted
12/03/12 8:43:57 AM#41

Yeah, of course, you can't rely on the random number generator to do the job for you...

But even in WoW and clones, if you play a squishy class, you can't just stand there and take hits, you will have to use crowd control and move.

  meddyck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1132

12/03/12 8:45:15 AM#42
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by meddyck
Agree with OP. On my elementalist when playing solo (happened a lot the last month because most middle level zones are deserted of players), I was basically forced to use 2 pets and a lot of kiting to kill same level mobs and complete events. Not exactly the playstyle I envisioned when I started the class. The game is designed for groups or better yet zergs of players taking on events and solo combat suffers as a result.

Water / earth specced Elementalist is as tanky as any other class. In fact, there isnt a single class in the game that cant spec decently for survival.

Sure I could do that if I wanted to play a tanky caster. Instead I want to play a glass cannon caster (fire/air), but in solo PvE the cannon part doesn't really work.

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  protodoxa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/29/12
Posts: 14

12/03/12 8:45:21 AM#43
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by tordurbar
I agree with the OP - running around mobs to avoid attacks has become a must. Even on my warrior I have to do this. When I get tired of the circle jerk and go toe to toe with mobs I usually end up dead. This is really annoying when I am a level 25 in a level 15 zone. My two sons saw me playing and started laughing when I ran circles around every mob I fought. I thought this ironic becuase they do the same thing when they can in pvp in the mmos they play. Still, the annoying thing is that it has become a must tactic, something that I thought that GW2 would try and avoid.

 

What they're avoid is the "must tactic" of having to have someone else care for you while you stand there and, in a most ridiculous fashion, take blow after blow from some massive whatever as you whittle away at his kneecaps or the like. Yes, you have to move. A lot. It's a more active style of combat than the more archaic MMOs feature. You're not intended to tank, period. Sure, you have skills etc. to survive a few blows, but to try and tank... fugeddaboutit. 

 

And I love it.

 

My mesmer is as fully capable in practically any scenario as any other profession (maybe more so, but I feel pretty adept with is so far...) and that's how it should be. I shouldn't be standing there for combat. Stand and get hit, stand and do damage, stand and heal. Really... look at trinity based combat, that's all it is. Stand around and do your role. Maybe a gimmick makes you move on occassion, but as soon as you can you stop, stand, and go back to your rotation. No thanks, I've out-grown that now. I'm much more in control of my own state as well as an overseer of everyone else. I see people burning, toss them a null field. I get conditioned, well I'll simply swap those conditions for the enemy's boons, thankyouverymuch. Really... you're going to shoot those at me?! Here... right back at ya! By the way... send in the clones. 

 

So yes, you have to move. You have to accept responsibility for yourself as well as help out others as you can. This is how it should be.

This. if anything, GW2 makes me very happy for these reasons. And I am the guy with the very slow reflexes. Just use the abilites you got and improvise. It's so fun getting it right. But I am that person I think whose only complaint about GW2 is that its acting/writing is bad and the loot mechanics are abysmal. Everything else is golden, imo.

  Finit

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 148

12/03/12 8:45:56 AM#44
Originally posted by Elikal

Sans Necro I played all to 20 at least.

Warrior and Vanguard are LESS squishy. But every other class BAM DED BAM DED AGAIN. Ok, mostly in WvW. But in PVE it's also that all classes beside Van and War are CIRCLE CIRCLE CIRCLE RUN RUN RUN around the mob. This feels so... HUMILIATING. I never saw Gandalf circle around some stupid rat or wolf!

I played mage classes and thief classes before. In other MMOs I never felt so vulnerable, if I take EQ2, WOW and LOTRO, which I played a longer time, relatively speaking. In these MMOs I could STAND in a place.

When I first heard the idea you can evade attacks, it sounded like a nice option. Little did I realize it would become a mandatory MUST EVADE. Yeah you can tell me 1000 times "YOUR DOING IT WRONG". You know I played plenty of MMOs. But I tell you I never ever felt so damn weak. Ok, I managed to get Warrior to 80 which was alright. But all other classes. No. Just no. And I don't like to play Vanguard, cause it's too much like Warrior. Minus weapons diversity.

 

Sigh. I really would love to play GW2 more. Despite shortcomings. But this goddamn squishiness and "circle around your enemy" feeling sooooo makes me feel sad and weak. :( I realize how I swap between my chars now every 20 minutes, thining, ok maybe NOW this class is better than I had in memory. But... nah. :((

Alright, so I can only explain a thief to you well, because well 98% of my time in Guild Wars 2 has been spent with one.  I have close to 4000 WvW kills, have played through half of the explorable modes, in full exotics, and on FOTM 11 (sadly can't find a group to go higher), so I think I have a good handle on the profession.

Thieves are entirely about mobility.  A standing still thief is a dead thief.  Personally, I love that. A stealthy slippery class, should have to avoid the giant attacks, or mitigate them in the same way.   There are specs that do allow you to stand more still if thats what you prefer (an offhand pistol will provide an aoe reapplying blind field to enemies).  If you are upset by this, I would not recommend playing a thief, a mesmer, or an elementalist.  All 3 professions will require at least a decent competence at mobility, and you should like what you are doing.

LIke already mentioned, the only two classes that get by well without moving is a Guardian and in some cases a warrior.  Personally I don't feel heroic at all taking a giant hammer to the face.  But, if that's your thing than by all means use one of those two professions.  I so much would prefer a class you have to play well to survive the harder areas.  (Yes, even a thief can often stand and autoattack most non-vetran mobs  in the world.)  And guardians are completely different from warriors, that's not really an opinion at this point.  The only similarity is tankiness, and the ability to support allies.  That's about it.

My Guild Wars 2 Blog can be found here: Divinity's Reach

  Dibdabs

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/29/08
Posts: 2452

12/03/12 8:48:22 AM#45
Originally posted by Elikal

Warrior and Vanguard are LESS squishy. But every other class BAM DED BAM DED AGAIN. Ok, mostly in WvW. But in PVE it's also that all classes beside Van and War are CIRCLE CIRCLE CIRCLE RUN RUN RUN around the mob. This feels so... HUMILIATING. I never saw Gandalf circle around some stupid rat or wolf!

Well, I can quite honestly say that I NEVER have to do what you describe above!  :D  Hell, I can quite honestly say I never even feel the need to Evade - I did originally have the skill bound to a mouse button for ease of access, but I never ended up having to use it.  What on earth are you doing wrong I cannot even imagine, but you're doing SOMETHING wrong.

I have had zero trouble in combat with any of the classes.  My Warrior and Ranger smash through PvE with ease, but every other class I've tried is quite capable of standing toe-to-toe in melee, if needs be, and with no actual reason to even contemplate using Evade or run around in circles.  :D

  Havekk

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1365

12/03/12 8:50:01 AM#46
Sooo. It seems like a lot of you are saying that you can build a tank... In doing so, you can pretty much ignore the dodge mechanic. Making a tank.. like... the trinity tank?
  Tymoris

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/29/09
Posts: 340

Innocence Proves Nothing

12/03/12 8:52:51 AM#47
Did you see how Aragorn and Legolas and Gimli stayed in one spot and soaked all the hits from the troll? No? Do you remember what happened to the one member of the party that were out of stamina to dodge?:P

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

12/03/12 8:55:45 AM#48
Originally posted by tordurbar
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Volkon

I solo'd a veteran Karka on my mesmer and won. I did not feel weak. Yes, it took time, and yes that bugger was capable of dropping me rather quickly if I let it... but I didn't.

 

Yeah, anyone who thinks Mesmers are weak or squishy is delusional. Mesmers can solo champs easier than any other profession, as the clones are amazing at distracting enemy AI.

With a good shatter build you can destroy players and mobs in a few seconds.

This game is all about builds. If a class seems weak, you have probably put together a bad combination of skills / traits.

Even Necromancers who I have traditionally thought weak.... I went against a crazy Necro in PvP the other day who dropped me in seconds. Keep in mind the cheapo Warrior and Thief builds cant even touch my Mesmer. But this Necro was absolutely destroying everyone using an axe. Yet everyone associates Necros as being tanky yet harmless.

Being one of those who believes that mesmers are squishy do you have any suggestions on where I can find specific strategies that would show me how to be a more effective solo player?  Thanks!

A couple things that really help me personally... 

 

1. Move. You're capable of avoiding most damage simply by moving. This is standard for any profession however, but it's critical to survival. 

2. Clones. Live them. Love them. Your clones are not you, but the bad guys don't know that. Rather than use a utility to produce clones, however, I rely on weapon skills and traits for that. For example... you can trait to create a clone when you dodge. That is a beautiful thing.

3. Like in GW1, mesmers are skill adept at using the enemies actions against them. Confused? You shouldn't be... but they should. Confusion damages them when they attack you. (Shatter 2 for example.) Projectile using foes will tear themselves apart with a feedback bubble. The young karkas, for example, will drop in seconds. I use a greatsword mainly (with scepter/focus for swap). Start with GS4 to get a phantasm at it's location (and it's attention), then toss in GW2 for an added clone and more damage. Watch the karka... it'll go into it's tail-shooting pose. Pop a feedback at that time and watch it melt itself.  Another thing is your heal... I like the heal that reflects projectiles for this exact reason. Maybe feedback is on cooldown, or maybe there's only a single shot or three you need to worry about. Instead of using a bubble you can heal yourself while they hurt themselves at the same time. (This works nicely in WvW... they can roll out of a bubble, but if they shoot while you're healing they'll feel it.

4. Try all the different weapons and combinations, and for longer than a few minutes. Go beyond your first impression. Maybe a focus feels like "yuck" initially, but try to work the skills into your combat. That Focus 4 skill that gives you the line you can speed up running through? Oh, that's a beauty of a skill there. You can not only give yourself a speed boost... you cripple enemies that run through it and, more importantly, if you hit 4 again before it fades you can pull enemies to it... either towards or away from you. For added fun, in WvW last night another mesmer and I were making it rain enemies that we were pulling off a cliff with it. Skills that make you giggle while using them are a must have imo.

 

Well, that's a start... big thing though is to keep at it. Learn the skills... they often have multiple effects and uses. Learn to live and love your clones and shatters... they're more powerful than people realize. (Shatter 4 - three seconds of invulnerability! I still don't use that enough! I wonder if that works on agony...) Good luck!

Oderint, dum metuant.

  xposeidon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 393

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

12/03/12 8:55:56 AM#49
Mesmers are actually pretty weak in the early levels and have to take it slow and careful, warriors on the other hand there's no need to kite around, you can pretty much destroy everything up to level 40 even 5 levels above you.

Remember... all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more.

  botrytis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2527

12/03/12 9:03:41 AM#50
Originally posted by Praetalus
Sooo. It seems like a lot of you are saying that you can build a tank... In doing so, you can pretty much ignore the dodge mechanic. Making a tank.. like... the trinity tank?

No - there are AoE skills that makes tanks go thud - dead. No class can just sit there and take damage.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  botrytis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2527

12/03/12 9:05:25 AM#51
Originally posted by SalivalMundane
What bugs me about GW2 is how much it absolutely sucks and that somehow people actually play it hardcore.

Haters will hate - jeez - go out and smell a rose in RL - it is a bloody game. Who cares what others think.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Havekk

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1365

12/03/12 9:06:45 AM#52
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Praetalus
Sooo. It seems like a lot of you are saying that you can build a tank... In doing so, you can pretty much ignore the dodge mechanic. Making a tank.. like... the trinity tank?

No - there are AoE skills that makes tanks go thud - dead. No class can just sit there and take damage.

Did you read above what the folks are saying? Sounds like they're saying that can tank and soak damage with very little movement. And I don't mean absoultely no movement of course.. you can't even do that in WoW. But from what they're saying it sounds like they pretty much made a trinity tank. 

  Maelzrael

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/12
Posts: 312

I like games.

12/03/12 9:07:11 AM#53

1st thing OP, you say you have bad reaction time and then you tell us you've spent 90% of your time in WvWvW. Pvp, in any form, is more geared towards players who have fast reaction times and some semblence of knowledge in tactics and critical thinking. Therefore i believe WvW is the wrong place for you, based on what you've told me.

2nd thing, if you want to play a game where you can just stand around and hit keys, Gw2 is not for you. For me, Gw2 combat is fun because of the constant need to adjust your combat style to your situation, be it changing weapons/utilities/traits, or simply dodgeing that one smash move those damned Ettins do. You do not seem to want to play this way, and therefore i believe Gw2 is just not made for the type of gamer you are. Thats not a big deal though, there are plenty of mmo's where the combat is all about standing around doing your skill rotations. Personally I dont find those very fun anymore, but they seem right up your ally.

Good day sir.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7733

Logic be damned!

12/03/12 9:08:35 AM#54

I got a Guardian up to 78, Warrior up to the 40s, Mesmer up to 20's and everything else in the teens...

Only time I ever really felt "powerful" was when I hit 20 on my Warrior and was using the Signet trick and Trait to get 100% crit chance.

It may be more realistic that I'm not a demi-god power level super-being stomping through various creatures and monsters without pause...

but it's certainly not as fun.

Now Playing: Destiny

  botrytis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2527

12/03/12 9:10:37 AM#55
Originally posted by Praetalus
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Praetalus
Sooo. It seems like a lot of you are saying that you can build a tank... In doing so, you can pretty much ignore the dodge mechanic. Making a tank.. like... the trinity tank?

No - there are AoE skills that makes tanks go thud - dead. No class can just sit there and take damage.

Did you read above what the folks are saying? Sounds like they're saying that can tank and soak damage with very little movement. And I don't mean absoultely no movement of course.. you can't even do that in WoW. But from what they're saying it sounds like they pretty much made a trinity tank. 

There are really no profession that can take ALL the damage all the time. All porfessions need to kite to survive. One much know what types of damage to evade and what not to evade. It is all about learning. THis games takes a bit more than most. Rift is a DPS pew, pew, pew game - tank sits there - healers heal - GW2 is not like that all all and I am appreciative that it is the way it is.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  InFlamestwo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/20/11
Posts: 677

12/03/12 9:12:19 AM#56
If it's Thief you're playing they are a hit and run class. You attack, bleed your enemy and poison, then come back at him and do some high crits, apply bleeds etc. PvP is another story, 1 hit everything.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

12/03/12 9:16:20 AM#57
Originally posted by BadSpock

I got a Guardian up to 78, Warrior up to the 40s, Mesmer up to 20's and everything else in the teens...

Only time I ever really felt "powerful" was when I hit 20 on my Warrior and was using the Signet trick and Trait to get 100% crit chance.

It may be more realistic that I'm not a demi-god power level super-being stomping through various creatures and monsters without pause...

but it's certainly not as fun.

 

Maybe it's different takes on what it feels like to be "powerful" then? Yes, my mesmer can't take a ton of hits and I have to move to survive. But dropping a champion or a foe or three in WvW with barely a scratch because they didn't know what to attack? Being in, in their eyes at least, four places at once, all doing damage, being able to turn the foes damage back on them... there's a type of powerful feeling in that as well. 

 

If you beat a champion by taking all it's hits (which you can't in GW2, I know... just an example) or you beat a champion because it could never actually hit you, who's more powerful?

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Maggon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/06
Posts: 307

12/03/12 9:17:32 AM#58
Originally posted by Master10K
Originally posted by Maggon

I got a 80 warrior, and a few other higher leveled characters, where as I do also find the elementalist extremely squishy, I'm not really sure as to how a dual dagger, or atleast main hand dagger Elementalist is supposed to be viable, as the DPS isnt really enough at close range, where you'd see a warrior with a GS (pure dps and lots of mobility) just tearing through things, though I guess warriors might be a bit OP in that sense.

I really love the game and the combat, though some things do make me wonder.

Same for mesmers, and AoE, or fighting multiple enemies, can take quite a while solo xD

I play primarily a Dual Dagger Elementalist and when built correctly, I can handle pretty much any veteran mob in the game, solo. I also can take a fair amount of damage, with my measely 13,000hp pool and in full Power/Precision/Crit dmg gear. Why, because I'm built for it.

If you build yourself to deals tons of damage, without thought as to the damage you will take, then you are simply doing it wrong. So try my Dual Daggger Ele Spec. Feel free to go full berserkers gear with it too (though make sure you have about 400 healing power from jewels). You'll see just how ridiculous the Ele's survivability can be.

Thanks for the tip - my ele is however only like lvl 25 at the moment so that could possibly be af factor as well, since I don't really got that many traits and stuff just yet - but i'll try and look into it.

 

Thanks

  Muntz

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 291

12/03/12 9:29:34 AM#59

If you really need to feel like you can just overpower things without thinking and you want to play the game I suggest you take the highest level toon you have and put the best gear and weapons you can get and go to the lowest level zones and hack away. There are still events there and they will give you level drops and you can feel all powerful. Kind of a snooze fest to me but to each his own. 

  User Deleted
12/03/12 9:31:42 AM#60
Originally posted by tordurbar
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Volkon

I solo'd a veteran Karka on my mesmer and won. I did not feel weak. Yes, it took time, and yes that bugger was capable of dropping me rather quickly if I let it... but I didn't.

 

Yeah, anyone who thinks Mesmers are weak or squishy is delusional. Mesmers can solo champs easier than any other profession, as the clones are amazing at distracting enemy AI.

With a good shatter build you can destroy players and mobs in a few seconds.

This game is all about builds. If a class seems weak, you have probably put together a bad combination of skills / traits.

Even Necromancers who I have traditionally thought weak.... I went against a crazy Necro in PvP the other day who dropped me in seconds. Keep in mind the cheapo Warrior and Thief builds cant even touch my Mesmer. But this Necro was absolutely destroying everyone using an axe. Yet everyone associates Necros as being tanky yet harmless.

Being one of those who believes that mesmers are squishy do you have any suggestions on where I can find specific strategies that would show me how to be a more effective solo player?  Thanks!

 

I use Greatsword and Staff. Greatsword phantasms snare the mobs making them easy to kite, also it has a knockback. Staff stacks lots of buffs on yourself and debuffs on the mobs, making you very tanky, also the clone summon of the staff will force players to drop your target.  Generally I switch to staff when I need to bolster my defence, but use Greatsword while I have the upper hand.  

Get the 30 point Illusion trait - http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Persona

It lets you use your shatters even when you have no clones. The last 2 shatters can save you from lots of potentially fatal encounters. One will block all damage to you (great for ruining spike damage from Thieves and Warriors) and the other will daze the opponent, helping you kite.  Also having that many points in Illusions will greatly lower your shatter recharge rate. 

Another essential trait is - http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deceptive_Evasion

This lets you summon a lot of clones, and also makes it hard for people to target you as you dodge away from them.

Also I always carry - http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Decoy

It breaks you out of Crowd Control and gives you invisibility, making it easy for you to slip away into your army of clones. Also amazing for training through areas that you dont want to stop and fight.

Personally I use a shatter / confusion heavy build. Confusion does a lot of damage that is unmitigatable and is often overlooked by players. I also spec so that my clones give conditions when they die. This applies when they get killed, when you summon too many and one dies that way, or when your target dies and all your clones die.

Mesmers are almost always better off getting condition gear. Not power. Confusion and bleeds from your clones (which you get by going and getting deceptive evasion) will do a lot of your damage output.

 

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