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My first mmos played (UO and L2) had open PVP and it was regarded as essential part of the enviroment, indispensable to the social, political and economic dynamics of the virtual world. People in almost totality did all the other things provided by the server (pve, craft, etc) preparing to pvp in search of resources, domains, ownerships of castles/fortress/territorys, glory, respect, rivalry, revenge, fun and etc. I only made contact with people that hate PVP after joining WoW and reading foruns. This was a novelty to me and let me very intrigued and curious about the reasons of the people that avoid PVP. Reading opinions and various texts in the internet, i saw that this population "pvp-hater" can be subdivided in 2 categories: people that likes or is indiferent to pvp itself, but hates the "free pvp" ("open world FFA pvp") and people that are truly scared of any type of pvp, even the structured. I came to a conclusion about the ultimate (or primary) causes that make PVP be disliked by some people:
1- PVE characters stays in certain spots waiting to be approached, while players can come to you.
Keeping all the other factors equal, is this the main "annoyance" of the pvp to much people. If the monsters stayed wandering the world, invading cities, aproaching players while they are occupied, distracted, no prepared or no "in mood" to fight, this "annoyance" would be regarded as a normal thing and pvp would be less loathed by these people. These monster and other AI NPC attacks would be considered "legitimates" and source of thrill, adrenaline and adventure, challenging the players in strive to survive, dodging or fighting the threats. But the same, if made by human-controled characters, is (consciously or no) regarded as "illegitimate", "desnecessary", "harassment", etc But in 99,9% of today mmos, the PVE characters stay stopped in specific spots waiting to be slaughtered like sheeps in the pasture (see item 2). This item explains the complains about "balance", zerg and trans-level kill too: PVE characters can too be "overpowered", in greater number or higher lv, but they stay in their spots, allowing the players approach them only if in advantageous conditions.
2- Human-controled characters is much more harder to defeat in 99% of the time.
As the AI tecnology is still far away from the capacity of a actual human brain, the human-controled characters, in equal conditions, will be more harder to defeat and unpredictable. To defeat a human-controled player requires a minimum of training, attention and motor coordination from the players, ie, skill and mental work, which not everyone is willling to do or have. Some people (i dont know if the majority or no) wanna play a mmo to just "relax" and do unchallenging things as pastime, like knitting. If the AI controlled characters had the same complex fighting behavior and tactics of the humans, the pvp would be less hated by these people too, since there wouldn't much difference. PVE characters can only become "hard" with gigantic increase in their stats, but still are predictable like a bull in the arena and can be easily beaten by a group of players whose only "challenge" is to form and keep a group able to memorize a handful of "movements".
3- In most mmos, PVE offfers more guaranteed rewards.
This is the main reason to much people. In 99% of the mmos, the PVE offers game rewards in a regular and guaranteed way, while PVP dont, or, if it offers, is at a high risk that sometimes dont compensates. Many mmos fails in create a functional risk-reward system to the pvp, and ends up not attracting the population that dont pvp for fun, but could happily (?) pvp if the potential reward is tempting. These mmos with bad risk-reward systems makes the pvp be practiced only by the people that have fun in doing it regardless of the "reward". The sandboxes mmos almost always creates a good risk-reward system, since the players competes by countless things in the open world.
In summary: pvp requires more work, attention and skill to be handled (either fighting, fleeing, dodging or avoiding) and not always gives valuable rewards to tempt the people turned away by these requirements.
"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song) |
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12/02/12 8:34:38 PM#2
Its not that im against pvp. Im against full loot FORCED pvp. Thats the main reason I dont play MO or DF. I shouldnt be forced into entering a pvp situation. Thats why I enjoy pve servers, I can pvp When I choose to. I also prefer large scale battles or RVR type battles. Single or small group engagements to me are not exciting.
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Originally posted by DSWBeef So, you fits the item 1 described in the text. "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song) |
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12/02/12 8:42:24 PM#4
Are you referring to PvP in general, or OWPvP/FFAPvP? There are many people who are fine with PvP, just not with open world PvP, free for all PvP or full loot PvP. It's not PvP that turns them off, it's specific implementations of PvP. Join the League For Gamers. |
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12/02/12 8:43:02 PM#5
I'm not against PvP. I certainly am not "scared" of it (love how people use the word scared for people who don't like things, but i digress). However, I'm what you would call a "terribad", so I avoid PvP for the most part. I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil |
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Originally posted by DSWBeef So why are you waiting ArcheAge? Is better read about the game before to wait. :D "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song) |
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12/02/12 8:47:06 PM#7
There's a good bit of non-PvP sandbox content in the game. It's also possible to setup protected areas. So while the game has PvP, it's possible to have some control of it. Join the League For Gamers. |
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12/02/12 8:49:06 PM#8
Originally posted by maccarthur2004 Reading opinions and various texts in the internet, i saw that this population "pvp-hater" can be subdivided in 2 categories: people that likes or is indiferent to pvp itself, but hates the "free pvp" ("open world FFA pvp") and people that are truly scared of any type of pvp, even the structured. Your post starts on the wrong foot, and thus will likely lead nowhere interesting. You insinuate that there are 3 basic attitudes of players toward PVP: -like it -indifferent -scared by it. If you had really wanted to make three mutually exclusive states, the third category would have read: dislike it But no, they are sssscccaaaaarrrreeddd....... What would you say if I described the 3 basic attitudes of players toward PVE: -like it -indifferent -scared by it. |
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Originally posted by lizardbones In my knowledge, only the start areas and houses (in most situations) will be "protected". Out of them, anyone can kill anyone, with penaltys if the same faction in the southern continents. The northern continent will be "lawless".
"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song) |
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12/02/12 8:55:05 PM#10
I like Pvp just not in MMO's. If you have to get a lot of gear it makes it worse
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VengeSunsoar
 Elite Member
Joined: 3/10/04
GRIND DOES NOT EXIST. IT IS ENTIRELY YOUR PERCEPTION. |
12/02/12 8:55:37 PM#11
Originally posted by maccarthur2004 Interesting premise. I don't think pvp requires any more work really. Sandboxes really have nothing to do with risk vs rewards or pvp, those are three different beasts a sandbox would still be sandbox with or without those other two. Please elaborate on the experiences you've had that led you to the conclusion that people are scared of pvp in a video game. This seems very strange to me. You know, in ancient Egypt. One of the hieroglyphics on the walls of the pyramids actually says 'I am upset as my heir will ruin my kingdom' or something to that affect. This is 5000BC stuff and you know what? Nothing has changed. :P |
Originally posted by maccarthur2004 Complementing: there will be a little of "loot-pvp" too. The itens required to build (wood, stones, etc) will need to be carried by the players (in a visible and encumbrance way)) from storage or extraction point to the spot, and will drop if the player dies.
Scared? :D
"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song) |
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12/02/12 8:58:59 PM#13
Originally posted by maccarthur2004 AA has a outlaw system which if it works will stop a lot of MINDLESS killing from the fear of going to trial or becoming an outlaw. While those guildw will exist there will be an equal number of outlaw hunting guilds. PVP type servers where pvp is open is alright to me, I use to play on one but when it turns from competitive one on one pvp to ganking I just log off and wait for him to leave.
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12/02/12 9:00:00 PM#14
Originally posted by maccarthur2004 ...... Everytime you call someone "scared" I cant take you seriously. And no losing crafting amts doesnt bother me its when I lose gear that i get pissed off not "scared"
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12/02/12 9:06:15 PM#15
I don't think it has anything to do with anyone being scared of PVP, I never heard anyone ever say that, many hate PVP yes.
I don't like PVP because: -the gameplay of PVP is 9 out of 10 time really really bad -the PVP community is usually incredibly rude -I have no time to deal with griefing little kids in an MMO -There is never cooperation in PVP games, it's always one person or a handful of peope button mashing, no organised raids -Many PVP players cry on the forum that classes aren't balanced because they get killed one-on-one, classes are not supposed to be balanced in PVE games that's what teamwork is for -etc etc etc |
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12/02/12 9:07:11 PM#16
Originally posted by CalmOceans Pretty much the same here.
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12/02/12 9:11:06 PM#17
Originally posted by maccarthur2004 Scared in a video game? Never gonna happen.
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12/02/12 9:12:34 PM#18
i have nothing against nor do i hate pvp, but the only thing i do not like about it is that when its done wrong like the op said the paid to win crap, the obnoxious pvp community when they gank or kill someone that is oviously lower level then that person, and especially those that they think they have the right to CHEAT to win. I mean really, that is what is pathetic about pvp. But the good thing i like about it is that rush, that adrenalen that you get either you know your being hunted or you are the hunter.
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12/02/12 9:27:27 PM#19
Originally posted by funyahns This. I love competitive games, but I just cannot stand MMO PvP. I dunno, just everything about it annoys me. 10 out of 10 games, it's X amount of dudes running around in a circle, casting spell X, using the only viable build for their class, hoping something procs or crits or whatever, and sometimes waiting for backup. It's just pure chaos in the worst way possible. It has nothing to do with spell effects or any of that either. I just think that, given the way most MMOs work at their core, they don't lend themselves well to PvP. Some people love mmo pvp. More power to 'em. I am clearly not one of those people. |
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Originally posted by CalmOceans I think exactly the opposite.
I had the opposite experience. The only mmo with "structured" PVP that i played (wow) have the worst community regarding the rudeness. If you are refering to griefers, i agree 100%, but if you are refering to the community of a mmo where pvp is free, i disagree, because in these communities is good to have many friends and little enemys to progress better.
Described in item 1 of the OP text. You wanna only be the killer/hunter of dumb mobs and NEVER the target.
LoL MMOs with pvp requires more cooperation to progress than "safe" mmos. In a mmo like WoW, the people group in very specific situations and in a transient way.
Isn't necessary to have "balance" in PVE, since the AI character are already far more weak or dumb.
"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song) |
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