Trending Games | Devilian | Continent of the Ninth Seal | Magerealm | Path of Exile

    Facebook Twitter YouTube
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,994,991 Users Online:0
Games:836  Posts:6,458,416
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online AD2460 ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Ninja Anime Pirates Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord 2 Archlord X Armored Warfare Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Bionic Marine Command Online Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blackguards 2 Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodborne Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chroma Squad Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crowfall Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Heart Online Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dying Light Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthlock: Festival of Magic Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Fable Legends Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
GRAV GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods Rush Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Hand of Fate Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Immune Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online Kill Strain King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Grimrock 2 Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lords of the Fallen 2 Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Hunter 4: Ultimate Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Necropolis Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Nova Genesis Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Overwatch Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Rebel Galaxy Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Chronicles Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Conflict Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Coast Legends Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Banner Saga 2 The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Trapped Dead: Lockdown Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Triad Wars Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utherous Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warriors World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles 3D Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The perfect raid size? (Pve discussion)

3 Pages 1 2 3 » Search
52 posts found

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/12
Posts: 157

OP  12/02/12 2:55:09 PM#1

What is the ideal raid size for you? And why? 

I personally enjoyed the 25 person size the most because it required heavy coordination but not so much it became a logistical nightmare.

Your ideal raid size?

Other (please specify)
(login to vote)

Express your opinion


Novice Member

Joined: 7/22/12
Posts: 1694

"But it was so artistically done..." - Grand Admiral Thrawn's final words

12/02/12 3:02:38 PM#2

I voted 16. I am used to 24 players raids from EQ2 and I really enjoyed them, but as you said logistics were the biggest problem, especially later in the life of game.

I enjoy though 8 players operations in SWTOR. They are more intense and demand more skills and are not so forgiving (no ninja afk in the middle of fight - like it was possible in 24 raid).

16 players seems to be a golden middle. Still some logistics and the fun of doing something in a big group.

Sith Warrior - Story of Hate and Love
Imperial Agent - Rise of Cipher Nine
Imperial Agent - Hunt for the Eagle Part 1


Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1161

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

12/02/12 3:06:36 PM#3



MMO's should NOT rely on raids for content. Older mmo's we made up our own fights that could span anywhere at anytime. Was more fun and exciting. Today's games it feels like a chores to do this now. Sorry but raids/warzones are just bad and takes the fun out of it.

  User Deleted
12/02/12 3:08:33 PM#4

I prefer no limits. Raids always become a bit exclusive of certain classes/builds when you limit the amount of people you can bring.



Elite Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4573

I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.

12/02/12 3:09:33 PM#5

Voted 16.  To me this is large enough to be significant but not so large to require huge amount of time forming a group.  I'd stretch this to a range of 15 to 20.

Realm Lords 2 Graphical MUD - Opens October 1st, 2015 - Testers Wanted - Very, very, very, very low budget Indie. For real, we don't even feed the employees. Pay them? Hah, you've gotta be kidding.


Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/12
Posts: 157

OP  12/02/12 3:43:55 PM#6
Originally posted by Wolfenpride

I prefer no limits. Raids always become a bit exclusive of certain classes/builds when you limit the amount of people you can bring.


Very true with the smaller sized raids but once you get into the 20+ range you see much more class diversity. The days of the 40 person raids are over and likely to never return although I'd love to see 1 new mmo like ESO or eq next add a large scale 40 person or larger world raid. It's not the era of huge raids anymore but 1 massive raid dropping the bis gear or giving some difficult achievement would be cool.


Note if any devs troll here pay attention to this idea.

Express your opinion


Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

12/02/12 3:49:55 PM#7

I voted other because I want no raids, I am not interested in raiding at all.  Besides, this is a PvE discussion?  Raiding is PvP!

I pass.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None


Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1338

12/02/12 3:56:19 PM#8

There is no 'perfect size'.    Much better to have a more nebulous approach, ie, Small, Medium, or Large group activities.   I am more inclined to pay attention to how long the thing will take.  The longer the 'raid event', the more interesting it has to be for me to commit the time. 


If it's a 'raid-n-hope' that you'll get the one drop....well, not likely to be playing that type of game in the first place.

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.


Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 6015

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

12/02/12 3:59:42 PM#9

Depends entirely on game mechanics and party dynamics.

Same as asking "How many players should be in a sports team?" -It depends on the sport.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky


Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/05
Posts: 471

12/02/12 4:02:02 PM#10
A perfect raid is no raid at all. Imho.

No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.


Advanced Member

Joined: 3/06/08
Posts: 429

12/02/12 4:08:59 PM#11

Just make shit scalable.


You can attempt X *raid* with a group size of 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 .. and scale the content inside to the raid size. Limiting raids to *X number of people* is a bad idea. Make content scalable and everyone is happy. Of course the trick is to make the content as challenging at each level of scaling. If its a tough encounter with 5, ok with 10 and stupid easy with 20 ... we'll people will cluster up for the 20 version. If each version is as difficult and rewarding as every other version, then your group size determines which version you run. Some of your 20 man raid group could'ent make it tonight? Nps, run it in 15. You hate large raids? kewl run it as a 5. You got a few friends online .. into 10 man.


Static numbers are bad ... scalable content is the way to go. Hell DAoC had scalable instances way back years ago .. they would scale to the number of people (1-8) and the level of mobs was adjusted based on the levels present. Sure it was'ent raid content, just a repetable dungeon ... same in LotRO, Scalable instances in that game, the Skirmish system and the older tradeskill dungeons. Baffles me that we've not seen a game with pure scaleable end game content yet.


Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/12
Posts: 157

OP  12/02/12 4:47:22 PM#12
I've heard gw2 has scaled Pve content. I'm not sure how well received it is but I like the idea. The problem is most mmorpg gamers have the set raid size mentality because the most popular titles had that format.

Express your opinion


Advanced Member

Joined: 3/06/08
Posts: 429

12/02/12 4:55:25 PM#13
Originally posted by Axehandle
I've heard gw2 has scaled Pve content. I'm not sure how well received it is but I like the idea. The problem is most mmorpg gamers have the set raid size mentality because the most popular titles had that format.

To a degree.

Honestly the scaling in GW2 aint great. It does scale somewhat, but still runs into the too few or too many issue. Its DE your talking about, and scaling means throwing more mobs at the players when there is a decent player pop in the area. However it does cap out and you get to the point where stuff dies before it even renders on your screen if there are alot of people around. Knowing where stuff is going to spawn and AoEing that point is the best course of action.

Too few and the events just roll over you.

This is mostly an issue in Orr (the end level zones) as people are there to farm some quick looping event chains. Some chains are over camped and some have no one at all there and become impossible. Generally the 70-75 and 75-80 maps in Orr (Straights and Leap) are just fully contested (ie all way points blocked by mob activity) because there are no players there, and about half of Cursed shore is the same. The events people farm are dead in seconds, the other events just trample around killing any poor sod who happens near them.

They made some efforts in the right direction though, so cant knock them for that. Just dont work out so well in practice :)


Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1886

12/02/12 5:05:33 PM#14
Originally posted by Cephus404

I voted other because I want no raids, I am not interested in raiding at all.  Besides, this is a PvE discussion?  Raiding is PvP!

I pass.

It's a discussion of PvE raiding.

I voted other. I would say that the 15ish range is probably easiest to manage without becoming too exlusive. The problem of scaling is that you need to create a minimum about without it becoming too easy, and have to set a maximum amount without becoming too easy.

For those that say no to raiding all together, that's fine, but at the same time raiding can be a worthwhile activity that provides challenging content with defined parameters and clear goals. Where I feel raiding gets a bit silly is when it becomes a multi-hour, multi-day activity where you have to repeat the same raiding content in order to progress into the next level of raiding (aka wow model). Many other mmos created interesting raid content that was challenging, provided unique opportunities for character advancement, but didn't require you to make that the only focus of your endgame experience.


Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/09
Posts: 591

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

12/02/12 5:15:20 PM#15
Why bother with size? Just make everything(loot, difficulty, etc) properly scale depending on the number of players. While I honestly like large raids, part of my annoyance was either we were lacking players/classes or we had too many, and thus the tough decision of who would be left behind was on the table. 

"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"
~Lord George Gordon Byron


Novice Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 1331

12/02/12 5:17:20 PM#16

I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen


Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/12
Posts: 157

OP  12/02/12 6:14:06 PM#17
Originally posted by doragon86
Why bother with size? Just make everything(loot, difficulty, etc) properly scale depending on the number of players. While I honestly like large raids, part of my annoyance was either we were lacking players/classes or we had too many, and thus the tough decision of who would be left behind was on the table. 

I asked a similar question and it has been established that the most recent company go do it Arenanet tried it with gw2 and as was previously mentioned by someone experienced with that scaling Pve system said it hasn't worked very well. I can't speak of the success but according to others the scaling system is easier said than done.

Express your opinion


Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 131

Don't trust these people. They're crooks.

12/02/12 7:02:12 PM#18

I have a hate-hate relationship with raids, because traditionally they've been associated with the damaging idea that recruiting X other players is something that should be rewarded by in-game rewards despite the fact that it has nothing to do with the game in its execution (depending instead on your personal charisma, social skills, and more often than not in this generation of MMOs, pre-existing relationships when you came to the game).


Getting ten people together and causing them not to screw up doesn't mean you should get better rewards than the guy who can do the same with only eight people.  That's not because herding cats isn't challenging--it certainly is, to be sure--but because there's no in-game skill, risk, or accomplishment associated with that feat.  For anybody who plays RPGs, it's the same problem as the "roleplay for success with charisma/intelligence, roll dice for success with strength/dexterity" issue that tends to attract justifiable criticism.


If you doubt that this is still a thing, spend five minutes over on the Rift boards and you'll spot a thread or two on the very issue, loaded up with the "best rewards should come from raids" arguments.  It's unfortunate that, until recently, GW2 was the most promising effort to tackle this issue head-on.  Shame things turned out the way they did.


That (raid perceptions--not Ascended-gate) is not what this is about, though, so now that it's out of the way, let me just say that I think it's possible, however difficult, to create a place for raids in a forward-looking game.  The purpose of this design should be to accommodate people who have the preexisting relationships (or form them over the life of the game) and allow them to complete content in one-another's company rather than in segments.  It should not be to add another hurdle to player advancement, gate access to content, or create a metaphorical stand-in for a designer's conviction that his or her pet-boss/dungeon/etc. should be super hard.


Having to roll the dice every weekend to see if Leeroy is going to fuck us this time shouldn't be a prerequisite to advancement, but it should be something that I can opt into if Leeroy is a friend of mine.


If this is the philosophy that's going into raid content design--or, hell, all content design--there comes a point where the technology should be able to support a group of arbitrary size.  If you want to balance content around class interdependency, I think that's fair, and that would be a reasonable benchmark for minimum group size for content, but nobody's yet made a game with forty classes, one of each of which is required to complete a raid.


Usually you need a tank, enough healers to keep him alive, and enough DPS to kill the mob faster than it kills the raid.  So you need one guy with a shield and an arbitrarily large number of healers and DPS.  If you want, you can make content that requires two guys with shields, but that only goes so far before things get silly ("Alright, let's get you thirty-five tanks up in the corner over here to keep aggro on these adds.  Yeah, I know it's tight, so go ahead and take off all your armor, grease each other up real good, and get familiar.  Hold your shields up and you'll be fine.").


There comes a point after which inflating the raid has no meaning, because you're just adding redundancy, or worse, exaggerating aspects of the fight to make it take longer despite the fact that you've added no new gameplay (GW2 had serious problems here when it came to mob HP, even with only five-man content).


I think where the industry ought to be headed is to scaling content with mechanical floors and ceilings (e.g., you can't bring more than twenty people in here because we don't want to have to cap how many dots can be on the mob at once; you have to bring at least two tanks because there will be at least one add midway through the fight).  Then if I want to take my five buddies into the Temple of Horrors, we've got the same chance of success, and the same rewards, as someone who brings his ten buddies.


Does this mean content that scales for raids should be soloable?  Maybe; I think it's hard to escape that argument to some extent, but it's a lot easier for me to draw the line at requiring groups--and I think required grouping is better for game health also--than to requiring raids--since we've seen enough games where required raiding is usually the end of the line for at least as many players as the ones it causes to stick around.


What's the ideal raid size?  How ever many people you have.

Peace and safety.


Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 2270

12/02/12 7:04:28 PM#19
50+ , anything under 30 isn't even a raid

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/21/11
Posts: 401

12/02/12 7:32:48 PM#20
no limit. raids should happen in open world. instances are stupid.
3 Pages 1 2 3 » Search