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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » We dont want games - we want worlds.

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735 posts found
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10420

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/30/12 6:23:02 AM#441


Originally posted by Scot
I have wondered myself why some posters on here are so militantly in favour of today’s easyMMO’s. If people want to play theme parks that’s fine, I have played some and had a bash but they were short lived and I was left wanting much more.

But as soon as you mention sandbox or anything that is not a core value of the solo/casual MMO model they post endlessly against it. We are asking for choice, the chance to try something different. Do they also think EvE or PS2 should not exist because they are not easyMMO’s?

This does make you wonder if they have a vested interest. It could be as simple as liking easyMMO’s and wanting to make sure their casual gameplay prevails in the MMO market. Also we must have posters here who work in the gaming industry and like anyone from any sector of life you will defend it.

The easyMMO apologists talk a lot about fun. In fact they talk about little else. And it has to be immediate fun, all the time fun for the crack whore generation of gamers who must have their next fix.

Do people have fun playing the Civ series? Do they have fun all the time, every second? I don't think so, but they still love the game. Do they need to know more about their game than how to pick a class and what gender they are? Yes they do. The Civ series along with EvE and others shows that games do not need to give you an instant fix to be great games. They do not need to be “fun” every second you play them. But the whole industry is moving towards an ever quicker fix and is dragging the MMO genre with it.

The bottom line is we want MMO’s to be from more than one mould. Even bloody FPS are made from more than one mould, so why are you so against choice in the MMO market?




You're missing at least half the posts if you think people are just posting for a choice. There are some people who are posting for there being more choice in the genre...and why not? It would be really cool if there were more choice. However, what most of the arguments tend to circle around is the sandbox players saying theme parks are cr@p, and that they shouldn't exist and that the fact that they exist is some sort of conspiracy, not a choice on the part of players. The theme park crowd will then respond with the reasons that they don't like sandboxes, why they are cr@p and shouldn't exist, etc. Then you have a few people who would like to see some sandboxes get developed, a few people who point out the reasons it's not happening, and a few people just posting random things.

The more reasonable posts are largely ignored because you can't really argue with them. "I'd like to see a sandbox get developed". Well...how can you argue with that? "I like open world, free for all PvP in a sandbox setting". That's not very arguable either. "Open world, free for all PvP in a sandbox setting is much more satisfying to players than instanced PvP in a theme park setting". Now that is a statement that people can argue about.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  manblackhole77

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/12
Posts: 3

11/30/12 7:28:49 AM#442
Originally posted by Lobotomist

We dont want games - we want worlds.

I think it's true! I agree!

 

  Zorgo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2192

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

11/30/12 8:35:24 AM#443
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Zorgo
 

Would you play a good virtual world? 

Never say never. I have not seen one and it depends on the game. I do like PS2.

Why is it always one thing and only one thing only? Can't we have good lobby games, good themeparks and good virtual worlds? 

Yes, you can. The question is whether that is likely based on the market. Right now, multiple game types are succesful (good themepark .. wow, good online APRG .. diablo, good MOBA .. LOL, good instanced pvp ... WOT). So it is not one thing only already.

The question, of course, is whether a sandbox can achieve the same level of success and so far the answer is no. It is not with lack of trying though. I would say the sandbox playstyle does not resonate as well as ARPG, MOBA, themepark and so on...

Am I the only person who likes different types of game structures? 

Probably not. I like ARPG, MMOFPS, and many different type of SP games. Who say i only like one type?

The thing is; we have good lobby games. We have good themeparks. But as far as virtual worlds, not many and not many that are good. 

Ask yourself why. Is it because the whole idea of a shared virtual world is no appealing anymore? Note taht it is very different from the SKYRIM type SP virtual world. In SKYRIM, i can "fast forward time", which is difficult to do in a real shared VW.

OP is right with one correction, imo:

We don't need anymore 'games', we need some more virtual worlds.

Who are "we"? Don't count me in. I have enough differnet type of gaming entertainment. I certainly do no need more virtual worlds.

 

We are those that want a good virtual world.....I thought that would be pretty clear.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3604

11/30/12 9:13:00 AM#444
Originally posted by Zorgo

We are those that want a good virtual world.....I thought that would be pretty clear.

And it's cool to want something, it's another matter entirely to expect that someone has to cater to your desires.  I want a flying car, doesn't mean I'm going to get one.  The problem comes when the people who want something think that somehow, game developers owe it to them.  There are business realities out there thath ave to be taken into account.  Games are expensive to make and take a lot of time, therefore only the game concepts most likely to succeed are going to be made.  That means that unless there are a huge number of people who want virtual worlds, and apparently, studies by developers do not show this to be true, nobody is going to make a virtual world game.

Nothing wrong with wanting something, so long as you realize that you don't always get what you want.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

11/30/12 9:52:48 AM#445
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Scot
I have wondered myself why some posters on here are so militantly in favour of today’s easyMMO’s. If people want to play theme parks that’s fine, I have played some and had a bash but they were short lived and I was left wanting much more.

 

But as soon as you mention sandbox or anything that is not a core value of the solo/casual MMO model they post endlessly against it. We are asking for choice, the chance to try something different. Do they also think EvE or PS2 should not exist because they are not easyMMO’s?

This does make you wonder if they have a vested interest. It could be as simple as liking easyMMO’s and wanting to make sure their casual gameplay prevails in the MMO market. Also we must have posters here who work in the gaming industry and like anyone from any sector of life you will defend it.

The easyMMO apologists talk a lot about fun. In fact they talk about little else. And it has to be immediate fun, all the time fun for the crack whore generation of gamers who must have their next fix.

Do people have fun playing the Civ series? Do they have fun all the time, every second? I don't think so, but they still love the game. Do they need to know more about their game than how to pick a class and what gender they are? Yes they do. The Civ series along with EvE and others shows that games do not need to give you an instant fix to be great games. They do not need to be “fun” every second you play them. But the whole industry is moving towards an ever quicker fix and is dragging the MMO genre with it.

The bottom line is we want MMO’s to be from more than one mould. Even bloody FPS are made from more than one mould, so why are you so against choice in the MMO market?

 




You're missing at least half the posts if you think people are just posting for a choice. There are some people who are posting for there being more choice in the genre...and why not? It would be really cool if there were more choice. However, what most of the arguments tend to circle around is the sandbox players saying theme parks are cr@p, and that they shouldn't exist and that the fact that they exist is some sort of conspiracy, not a choice on the part of players. The theme park crowd will then respond with the reasons that they don't like sandboxes, why they are cr@p and shouldn't exist, etc. Then you have a few people who would like to see some sandboxes get developed, a few people who point out the reasons it's not happening, and a few people just posting random things.

The more reasonable posts are largely ignored because you can't really argue with them. "I'd like to see a sandbox get developed". Well...how can you argue with that? "I like open world, free for all PvP in a sandbox setting". That's not very arguable either. "Open world, free for all PvP in a sandbox setting is much more satisfying to players than instanced PvP in a theme park setting". Now that is a statement that people can argue about.

 

After following this pretty good, i havent seen anyone saying themeparks are crap. Just that they are all alike and missing standard mmorpg features. There are 1000 themeparks and they all amount ot the exact same thing. Linear, small maps, being led around on a leash, being told what to do, no crafting, no player housing, no social aspect, no grouping, less content than your newer console rpg, short lived (no content), forced to raid and do dailies for end content, and its just getting tiresome.

If they would make a themepark but open it up and actualy make a true mmorpg then it would be good. Almost all the past 10-15 AAA themepark releases most have bottomed out and went f2p because they think it will save their game.

Many of us here want sandbox so we can have a choice, set our own path, have options even if we dont need or want to use them. TO actualy have a world to explore and find our way. Not have everything handed to us.

I play some themeparks, and enjoy them. But majority of them just do not live up to what they should be. Many of the people here dont know the difference, and some have not tried one, just listened to wild misconceptions of a sandbox.

Who in their right mind wouldnt want a mmo with all the features to try and pick which ones they want to take part in? No their main arguements are travel time (not all sandboxes have long travel times), full loot pvp (more than half of snadboxes dont have full loot and some dont even have pvp at all), or they want a good story (why not make your own? who said anything about a sandbox not having a story line?), or they want things ast and in a hurry (no one likes to earn things or use their brain to solve things anymore).

Tell me a reason not to have it all in a mmo? No most the themepark gamers here whine about insignificant things. While sandboxers just want a real game that will provide content and longjevity for years to come. Think if you go back and read from the begining its actualy the themepark guys attacking sandboxes saying they are crap, because not one post from here pertaining to themeparks tries to promote a better game just defends the garbage that keeps being released over and over and over again.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10420

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/30/12 10:58:47 AM#446


Originally posted by Onomas

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Scot I have wondered myself why some posters on here are so militantly in favour of today’s easyMMO’s. If people want to play theme parks that’s fine, I have played some and had a bash but they were short lived and I was left wanting much more.   But as soon as you mention sandbox or anything that is not a core value of the solo/casual MMO model they post endlessly against it. We are asking for choice, the chance to try something different. Do they also think EvE or PS2 should not exist because they are not easyMMO’s? This does make you wonder if they have a vested interest. It could be as simple as liking easyMMO’s and wanting to make sure their casual gameplay prevails in the MMO market. Also we must have posters here who work in the gaming industry and like anyone from any sector of life you will defend it. The easyMMO apologists talk a lot about fun. In fact they talk about little else. And it has to be immediate fun, all the time fun for the crack whore generation of gamers who must have their next fix. Do people have fun playing the Civ series? Do they have fun all the time, every second? I don't think so, but they still love the game. Do they need to know more about their game than how to pick a class and what gender they are? Yes they do. The Civ series along with EvE and others shows that games do not need to give you an instant fix to be great games. They do not need to be “fun” every second you play them. But the whole industry is moving towards an ever quicker fix and is dragging the MMO genre with it. The bottom line is we want MMO’s to be from more than one mould. Even bloody FPS are made from more than one mould, so why are you so against choice in the MMO market?  
You're missing at least half the posts if you think people are just posting for a choice. There are some people who are posting for there being more choice in the genre...and why not? It would be really cool if there were more choice. However, what most of the arguments tend to circle around is the sandbox players saying theme parks are cr@p, and that they shouldn't exist and that the fact that they exist is some sort of conspiracy, not a choice on the part of players. The theme park crowd will then respond with the reasons that they don't like sandboxes, why they are cr@p and shouldn't exist, etc. Then you have a few people who would like to see some sandboxes get developed, a few people who point out the reasons it's not happening, and a few people just posting random things. The more reasonable posts are largely ignored because you can't really argue with them. "I'd like to see a sandbox get developed". Well...how can you argue with that? "I like open world, free for all PvP in a sandbox setting". That's not very arguable either. "Open world, free for all PvP in a sandbox setting is much more satisfying to players than instanced PvP in a theme park setting". Now that is a statement that people can argue about.  
After following this pretty good, i havent seen anyone saying themeparks are crap. Just that they are all alike and missing standard mmorpg features. There are 1000 themeparks and they all amount ot the exact same thing. Linear, small maps, being led around on a leash, being told what to do, no crafting, no player housing, no social aspect, no grouping, less content than your newer console rpg, short lived (no content), forced to raid and do dailies for end content, and its just getting tiresome.

If they would make a themepark but open it up and actualy make a true mmorpg then it would be good. Almost all the past 10-15 AAA themepark releases most have bottomed out and went f2p because they think it will save their game.

Many of us here want sandbox so we can have a choice, set our own path, have options even if we dont need or want to use them. TO actualy have a world to explore and find our way. Not have everything handed to us.

I play some themeparks, and enjoy them. But majority of them just do not live up to what they should be. Many of the people here dont know the difference, and some have not tried one, just listened to wild misconceptions of a sandbox.

Who in their right mind wouldnt want a mmo with all the features to try and pick which ones they want to take part in? No their main arguements are travel time (not all sandboxes have long travel times), full loot pvp (more than half of snadboxes dont have full loot and some dont even have pvp at all), or they want a good story (why not make your own? who said anything about a sandbox not having a story line?), or they want things ast and in a hurry (no one likes to earn things or use their brain to solve things anymore).

Tell me a reason not to have it all in a mmo? No most the themepark gamers here whine about insignificant things. While sandboxers just want a real game that will provide content and longjevity for years to come. Think if you go back and read from the begining its actualy the themepark guys attacking sandboxes saying they are crap, because not one post from here pertaining to themeparks tries to promote a better game just defends the garbage that keeps being released over and over and over again.




Well, obviously I'm paraphrasing, condensing a lot of posts and a lot of statements down to a few words. The games you're calling garbage (cr@p could be in garbage, yes?) are keeping a few million people happy. The games you consider 'good' are keeping less than a million people happy. Guess which of these is going to attract more developers?

The reasons games get made the way they are made is simple. It's all about money. Games sell accounts, worlds don't. Obviously the best case scenario is selling a lot of accounts, and then keeping them for years. The reality is that developers can choose between selling a lot of boxes and keeping a low percentage of accounts, or selling fewer boxes and keeping a higher percentage of those accounts. So far, selling a lot of accounts and keeping a low percentage of them makes more money.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

11/30/12 11:42:05 AM#447
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Onomas

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Scot I have wondered myself why some posters on here are so militantly in favour of today’s easyMMO’s. If people want to play theme parks that’s fine, I have played some and had a bash but they were short lived and I was left wanting much more.   But as soon as you mention sandbox or anything that is not a core value of the solo/casual MMO model they post endlessly against it. We are asking for choice, the chance to try something different. Do they also think EvE or PS2 should not exist because they are not easyMMO’s? This does make you wonder if they have a vested interest. It could be as simple as liking easyMMO’s and wanting to make sure their casual gameplay prevails in the MMO market. Also we must have posters here who work in the gaming industry and like anyone from any sector of life you will defend it. The easyMMO apologists talk a lot about fun. In fact they talk about little else. And it has to be immediate fun, all the time fun for the crack whore generation of gamers who must have their next fix. Do people have fun playing the Civ series? Do they have fun all the time, every second? I don't think so, but they still love the game. Do they need to know more about their game than how to pick a class and what gender they are? Yes they do. The Civ series along with EvE and others shows that games do not need to give you an instant fix to be great games. They do not need to be “fun” every second you play them. But the whole industry is moving towards an ever quicker fix and is dragging the MMO genre with it. The bottom line is we want MMO’s to be from more than one mould. Even bloody FPS are made from more than one mould, so why are you so against choice in the MMO market?  
You're missing at least half the posts if you think people are just posting for a choice. There are some people who are posting for there being more choice in the genre...and why not? It would be really cool if there were more choice. However, what most of the arguments tend to circle around is the sandbox players saying theme parks are cr@p, and that they shouldn't exist and that the fact that they exist is some sort of conspiracy, not a choice on the part of players. The theme park crowd will then respond with the reasons that they don't like sandboxes, why they are cr@p and shouldn't exist, etc. Then you have a few people who would like to see some sandboxes get developed, a few people who point out the reasons it's not happening, and a few people just posting random things. The more reasonable posts are largely ignored because you can't really argue with them. "I'd like to see a sandbox get developed". Well...how can you argue with that? "I like open world, free for all PvP in a sandbox setting". That's not very arguable either. "Open world, free for all PvP in a sandbox setting is much more satisfying to players than instanced PvP in a theme park setting". Now that is a statement that people can argue about.  
After following this pretty good, i havent seen anyone saying themeparks are crap. Just that they are all alike and missing standard mmorpg features. There are 1000 themeparks and they all amount ot the exact same thing. Linear, small maps, being led around on a leash, being told what to do, no crafting, no player housing, no social aspect, no grouping, less content than your newer console rpg, short lived (no content), forced to raid and do dailies for end content, and its just getting tiresome.

 

If they would make a themepark but open it up and actualy make a true mmorpg then it would be good. Almost all the past 10-15 AAA themepark releases most have bottomed out and went f2p because they think it will save their game.

Many of us here want sandbox so we can have a choice, set our own path, have options even if we dont need or want to use them. TO actualy have a world to explore and find our way. Not have everything handed to us.

I play some themeparks, and enjoy them. But majority of them just do not live up to what they should be. Many of the people here dont know the difference, and some have not tried one, just listened to wild misconceptions of a sandbox.

Who in their right mind wouldnt want a mmo with all the features to try and pick which ones they want to take part in? No their main arguements are travel time (not all sandboxes have long travel times), full loot pvp (more than half of snadboxes dont have full loot and some dont even have pvp at all), or they want a good story (why not make your own? who said anything about a sandbox not having a story line?), or they want things ast and in a hurry (no one likes to earn things or use their brain to solve things anymore).

Tell me a reason not to have it all in a mmo? No most the themepark gamers here whine about insignificant things. While sandboxers just want a real game that will provide content and longjevity for years to come. Think if you go back and read from the begining its actualy the themepark guys attacking sandboxes saying they are crap, because not one post from here pertaining to themeparks tries to promote a better game just defends the garbage that keeps being released over and over and over again.

 




Well, obviously I'm paraphrasing, condensing a lot of posts and a lot of statements down to a few words. The games you're calling garbage (cr@p could be in garbage, yes?) are keeping a few million people happy. The games you consider 'good' are keeping less than a million people happy. Guess which of these is going to attract more developers?

The reasons games get made the way they are made is simple. It's all about money. Games sell accounts, worlds don't. Obviously the best case scenario is selling a lot of accounts, and then keeping them for years. The reality is that developers can choose between selling a lot of boxes and keeping a low percentage of accounts, or selling fewer boxes and keeping a higher percentage of those accounts. So far, selling a lot of accounts and keeping a low percentage of them makes more money.

 

You styill didnt answer my question. ANd developers money isnt my concern. The reason they make money is because there is no competition. And the reason this is all they pump out is because its all they know. Thats is soon changing ;)

And another question for you.... why is it newer single player console rpg games offer more features than your standard new aged mmorpg? Funny isnt it?

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10420

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/30/12 12:07:05 PM#448


Originally posted by Onomas
You styill didnt answer my question. ANd developers money isnt my concern. The reason they make money is because there is no competition. And the reason this is all they pump out is because its all they know. Thats is soon changing ;)

And another question for you.... why is it newer single player console rpg games offer more features than your standard new aged mmorpg? Funny isnt it?

 




Ir probably missed the question in the large number of words. You might want to ask it again, in the form of a question.

There is plenty of competition. MMORPG don't operate in a vacuum. They compete against all the other games that are available to play. Even limiting the choice of games to the MMORPG space, there is still competition. For there to be no competition, there would have to be one game, and nothing else. There are many games, and the most popular ones are the short content theme parks.

Single player console games do not cost fifty million dollars to produce, and single player console games do not have to worry about game mechanics in regards to multiplayer scenarios. So long as a game mechanic works for one player, it's good. For instance, in Fable, you could buy a building from somebody, and then rent an apartment to someone. Once that building was purchased, it would be unavailable to anyone else. On a server with 2,000 people, that's a problem. In a game with one player, it's a feature.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

11/30/12 1:22:05 PM#449
Originally posted by Onomas

Tell me a reason not to have it all in a mmo? No most the themepark gamers here whine about insignificant things. While sandboxers just want a real game that will provide content and longjevity for years to come. Think if you go back and read from the begining its actualy the themepark guys attacking sandboxes saying they are crap, because not one post from here pertaining to themeparks tries to promote a better game just defends the garbage that keeps being released over and over and over again.

Cost?

Sandbox/world games have been tried. They are old ideas. I thought people here like innvoation .. new direction of MMOs. MMOFPS, MOBA are newer, and successful ideas.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

11/30/12 1:25:17 PM#450
Originally posted by lizardbones


There is plenty of competition. MMORPG don't operate in a vacuum. They compete against all the other games that are available to play. Even limiting the choice of games to the MMORPG space, there is still competition. For there to be no competition, there would have to be one game, and nothing else. There are many games, and the most popular ones are the short content theme parks.
 

This is a very good point. MMO is competing with MOBA, FPS, ARPG for my time. It is only wise for devs to a) focus, and b) adapt and take good features from other genre.

Look at Borderlands .. combine FPS and RPG, with an online MP mode (sort of like Diablo) and huge success. I can see the RPG purist now .. "what .. add FPS to RPG? It is blasphemy. The devs don't understand the original intent of RPG" ... LOL

 

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4714

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/30/12 1:29:33 PM#451
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Onomas

Tell me a reason not to have it all in a mmo? No most the themepark gamers here whine about insignificant things. While sandboxers just want a real game that will provide content and longjevity for years to come. Think if you go back and read from the begining its actualy the themepark guys attacking sandboxes saying they are crap, because not one post from here pertaining to themeparks tries to promote a better game just defends the garbage that keeps being released over and over and over again.

Cost?

Sandbox/world games have been tried. They are old ideas. I thought people here like innvoation .. new direction of MMOs. MMOFPS, MOBA are newer, and successful ideas.

@Onomas,

Nope right from the beginning, first post was was attacking themeparks, basically saying they are crap.  "And we have what we have today. Shallow abominations. Most laughable of which would be MMOs that came 2012."

You should re-read the thread, there are dozens of posts attacking themeparks.  Including yours, "just defends the garbage that keeps being released over and over and over again."

Lots have included ideas of better games, however they like the games currently.  You don't, simple.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  TsaboHavoc

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/11
Posts: 340

11/30/12 1:29:40 PM#452
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by lizardbones


There is plenty of competition. MMORPG don't operate in a vacuum. They compete against all the other games that are available to play. Even limiting the choice of games to the MMORPG space, there is still competition. For there to be no competition, there would have to be one game, and nothing else. There are many games, and the most popular ones are the short content theme parks.
 

This is a very good point. MMO is competing with MOBA, FPS, ARPG for my time. It is only wise for devs to a) focus, and b) adapt and take good features from other genre.

Look at Borderlands .. combine FPS and RPG, with an online MP mode (sort of like Diablo) and huge success. I can see the RPG purist now .. "what .. add FPS to RPG? It is blasphemy. The devs don't understand the original intent of RPG" ... LOL

 

they arent competing, they Unfortunaly are merging to be the same thing.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

11/30/12 1:33:36 PM#453
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by lizardbones


There is plenty of competition. MMORPG don't operate in a vacuum. They compete against all the other games that are available to play. Even limiting the choice of games to the MMORPG space, there is still competition. For there to be no competition, there would have to be one game, and nothing else. There are many games, and the most popular ones are the short content theme parks.
 

This is a very good point. MMO is competing with MOBA, FPS, ARPG for my time. It is only wise for devs to a) focus, and b) adapt and take good features from other genre.

Look at Borderlands .. combine FPS and RPG, with an online MP mode (sort of like Diablo) and huge success. I can see the RPG purist now .. "what .. add FPS to RPG? It is blasphemy. The devs don't understand the original intent of RPG" ... LOL

 

they arent competing, they Unfortunaly are merging to be the same thing.

Of course they are. Did you read the whole sentence? I have limited time to play. If i am playing a MOBA, i won't be playing a MMO.

And they merge precisely because they are competing. MMO devs are trying to get players who like MOBA, and lobby style dungeon runs.

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

11/30/12 1:38:38 PM#454
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Onomas

Tell me a reason not to have it all in a mmo? No most the themepark gamers here whine about insignificant things. While sandboxers just want a real game that will provide content and longjevity for years to come. Think if you go back and read from the begining its actualy the themepark guys attacking sandboxes saying they are crap, because not one post from here pertaining to themeparks tries to promote a better game just defends the garbage that keeps being released over and over and over again.

Cost?

Sandbox/world games have been tried. They are old ideas. I thought people here like innvoation .. new direction of MMOs. MMOFPS, MOBA are newer, and successful ideas.

@Onomas,

Nope right from the beginning, first post was was attacking themeparks, basically saying they are crap.  "And we have what we have today. Shallow abominations. Most laughable of which would be MMOs that came 2012."

You should re-read the thread, there are dozens of posts attacking themeparks.  Including yours, "just defends the garbage that keeps being released over and over and over again."

Lots have included ideas of better games, however they like the games currently.  You don't, simple.

 

You should learn to read. I said garbage games, did not specify theme park. More than one genre of game types. You guys are trying to find every little thing to make your opinion better than anyone else's, even put words in their mouth.
  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4714

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/30/12 1:42:17 PM#455
Originally posted by Onomas
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Onomas

Tell me a reason not to have it all in a mmo? No most the themepark gamers here whine about insignificant things. While sandboxers just want a real game that will provide content and longjevity for years to come. Think if you go back and read from the begining its actualy the themepark guys attacking sandboxes saying they are crap, because not one post from here pertaining to themeparks tries to promote a better game just defends the garbage that keeps being released over and over and over again.

Cost?

Sandbox/world games have been tried. They are old ideas. I thought people here like innvoation .. new direction of MMOs. MMOFPS, MOBA are newer, and successful ideas.

@Onomas,

Nope right from the beginning, first post was was attacking themeparks, basically saying they are crap.  "And we have what we have today. Shallow abominations. Most laughable of which would be MMOs that came 2012."

You should re-read the thread, there are dozens of posts attacking themeparks.  Including yours, "just defends the garbage that keeps being released over and over and over again."

Lots have included ideas of better games, however they like the games currently.  You don't, simple.

 

You should learn to read. I said garbage games, did not specify theme park. More than one genre of game types. You guys are trying to find every little thing to make your opinion better than anyone else's, even put words in their mouth.

You should learn to read what you wrote.  You stated it was actually the themepark guys attacking sandboxes, I stated the first post was attacking themeparks.

From your statement, "because not one post from here pertaining to themeparks tries to promote a better game just defends the garbage that keeps being released over and over and over again."  When someone says something like, "pertaining to themparks", a logical inference is that they are talking about themeparks.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5150

12/01/12 8:42:59 AM#456

There are decent theme parks and there are rubbish ones.

What we see from ”our side” is the easyMMO apologists defending the whole genre. Some of these posters are no doubt flogging their current MMO to death with criticism after playing it for a month then coming on here and telling us all how wonderful the current MMO genre is!

I don’t mind a decent themepark, SWTOR hit the spot, but long term the choice of rides became very limiting. As it always does.

I can understand posters hitting out at easyMMO’s as a whole, there are not exactly that many that are decent. The industry is awash with poor quality MMO’s.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

12/01/12 9:23:02 AM#457
Originally posted by lizardbones

 

Well, obviously I'm paraphrasing, condensing a lot of posts and a lot of statements down to a few words. The games you're calling garbage (cr@p could be in garbage, yes?) are keeping a few million people happy. The games you consider 'good' are keeping less than a million people happy. Guess which of these is going to attract more developers?

The reasons games get made the way they are made is simple. It's all about money. Games sell accounts, worlds don't. Obviously the best case scenario is selling a lot of accounts, and then keeping them for years. The reality is that developers can choose between selling a lot of boxes and keeping a low percentage of accounts, or selling fewer boxes and keeping a higher percentage of those accounts. So far, selling a lot of accounts and keeping a low percentage of them makes more money.

 

Yes, because the only choice is wotlk and eve, nothing else, we have no other game, no other systems, no other choices.

And you still see only the numbers you want.

But the problem is not money in these arguments, the problem is that you and other arguers constrantly try to move this into the area of purist sandboxes just to try to push your point across and smash everyone with quaint gameplay they offer.

Where in reality most of "us" would be happy (or atleast satisfied with, if not happy) with TBC.

The difference is small, the devil lies in the detail, more specifically we are arguing McDonalds vs a cheap diner, the difference between having a steak or not, between having your food wrapped in boxes or served on plates.

We are not suggesting a fancy italian restaurant with meals you cannot pronounce.

Flame on!

:)

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10420

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

12/01/12 10:19:39 AM#458


Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by lizardbones   Well, obviously I'm paraphrasing, condensing a lot of posts and a lot of statements down to a few words. The games you're calling garbage (cr@p could be in garbage, yes?) are keeping a few million people happy. The games you consider 'good' are keeping less than a million people happy. Guess which of these is going to attract more developers? The reasons games get made the way they are made is simple. It's all about money. Games sell accounts, worlds don't. Obviously the best case scenario is selling a lot of accounts, and then keeping them for years. The reality is that developers can choose between selling a lot of boxes and keeping a low percentage of accounts, or selling fewer boxes and keeping a higher percentage of those accounts. So far, selling a lot of accounts and keeping a low percentage of them makes more money.  
Yes, because the only choice is wotlk and eve, nothing else, we have no other game, no other systems, no other choices.

And you still see only the numbers you want.

But the problem is not money in these arguments, the problem is that you and other arguers constrantly try to move this into the area of purist sandboxes just to try to push your point across and smash everyone with quaint gameplay they offer.

Where in reality most of "us" would be happy (or atleast satisfied with, if not happy) with TBC.

The difference is small, the devil lies in the detail, more specifically we are arguing McDonalds vs a cheap diner, the difference between having a steak or not, between having your food wrapped in boxes or served on plates.

We are not suggesting a fancy italian restaurant with meals you cannot pronounce.

Flame on!

:)




No, because that's how it is. The minimum buy in for writing an MMORPG is ten million dollars and five years of labor. It doesn't matter what kind of MMORPG you plan on writing, that's the minimum buy in. Kurt Schilling blew forty five million dollars of his own money and got an iffy single player RPG and some art assets for an MMORPG. Dominus, formerly Dominus: Battle for Prime went through ten million dollars and got nothing. I would have to research it, but the Earthrise dev went through millions of dollars and developed a non-functional game...essentially nothing.

When ten million dollars just gets you in the door, money is the single biggest road block to getting a game written. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have people desperately using KickStarter to get hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars to write Tech Demos so they could get a company to actually write their games.

When the biggest road block to getting a game written is money, you have to have something that says the game will make money. It's not relevant if that something is a fancy Italian Restaurant, or if it's a license to a chain of restaurants, or if it's a ponzi scheme.

When the development costs drop to the point that an indie developer can write an MMORPG or even better, when newbie developers can experiment with MMORPG development in a time frame that isn't forever, we'll see some fast changes and more variety. Until then, developers are going to go with what works. They'll make little changes to differentiate themselves from other games, but mostly they're doing to stick to formulas that work.

Of course, things could go in the opposite direction. Development costs remain the same, but the money being put into the games just keeps getting bigger. I've heard that TSO's development costs are in the neighborhood of three hundred million dollars. In that direction you're still going to get known formulas, you're just hopefully going to get more of them in the same game.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  erikk3189

Novice Member

Joined: 3/31/08
Posts: 310

12/01/12 10:34:06 AM#459

Basically, the OP is talking about a game like SWG (pre NGE).

SWG was way ahead of it's time. They had things that you don't see anymore which is why they had such a hardcore following and people went mad when they changed the game.

The amount of social options that game had was very large which made it so much fun. Sad to say, they took it off and no other game has come close to duplicating some of the things from back then.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10420

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

12/01/12 10:40:45 AM#460


Originally posted by TsaboHavoc

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones There is plenty of competition. MMORPG don't operate in a vacuum. They compete against all the other games that are available to play. Even limiting the choice of games to the MMORPG space, there is still competition. For there to be no competition, there would have to be one game, and nothing else. There are many games, and the most popular ones are the short content theme parks.  
This is a very good point. MMO is competing with MOBA, FPS, ARPG for my time. It is only wise for devs to a) focus, and b) adapt and take good features from other genre. Look at Borderlands .. combine FPS and RPG, with an online MP mode (sort of like Diablo) and huge success. I can see the RPG purist now .. "what .. add FPS to RPG? It is blasphemy. The devs don't understand the original intent of RPG" ... LOL  
they arent competing, they Unfortunaly are merging to be the same thing.



The result of competition is that there is a winner and a loser. If a game that costs five million dollars to produce gets as many players and as much money as a game that costs fifty million dollars to produce, the five million dollar game wins, and others will try to incorporate some of the winning features into their games.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

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