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Darkfall: Unholy Wars

Darkfall: Unholy Wars 

General Discussion  » Aventurine "gets it". I wish all MMO devs did.

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258 posts found
  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1073

12/01/12 6:44:32 AM#21

Yeah, a lot of back-patting in this thread.   'Someone agreed with me!  It must be true for all!'

 

Instances are easier on developers,  because they solve certain problems.   Denying the problems exist does not solve them.  

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  ste2000

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 4733

12/01/12 6:46:24 AM#22
Originally posted by Schockey
That is goodstuff! My friend and I left one of the last big titles because the instancing was so inconvenient and the load screens took away so much from immersion.

To be honest, there are portals that get you inside the dungeon, but tecnically the dungeons are not instanced as everyone can get inside.

Let's say AV is right in the middle an instanced and a non instanced dungeon

Only seamless world is Vanguard  where dungeons are connected with the rest of the map with no portals

  Siveria

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 1150

12/01/12 6:54:16 AM#23

Sadly they don't get that open world greif/gank fests won't survive in the mmo world of casuals. They should restrict all pvp to one big zone with land control and such, DAoC did it and it worked great, why can't others follow their examples? Not to mention most of these gankfest/greif mmo's don't even have any advancement tied to the pvp. DAoC worked so well because it let the pve people play in peace, but it also provided a nice pvp system for those into that. No other mmo has provided such a well done pvp system to this date, the closest I think would be Eq2, because you can gain some Alternate advancment points thru pvp.

I myself love pvp when it is done right, but other than daoc, and maybe less-so eq2, no one else has gotten it right, or even close to right. To me arena garbage does not count as pvp, but neither does gankfest where max lv chars can prey on new players. For a mmo to survive it constantly needs new players coming in but I notice in these open world pvp mmo's that the games own community ends up killing the game they love by chasing new players away. Its also why I say the playerbase for most open world pvp mmo's are possibly the most immature of any games playerbase. I get the feeling I will be flamed for this, but what I said here is true, and it has been the downfall of many open world pvp titles.

Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

or

B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  manus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/04
Posts: 46

12/01/12 7:13:11 AM#24
only played two MMORPGs were instancing have added to my game experience, Anarchy Online and Dungeons and Dragons Online..
  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6923

12/01/12 7:15:00 AM#25


Originally posted by DavisFlight

Aventurine "gets it".

That is why DF is so successful...oh wait..



Originally posted by DavisFlight

"Because usually instance are used for technical reasons, for convenience of the developer."

Yeah, seems like Tassos does not get it...at all. Instances are primarily there to improve player experience - "50 people fighting over a single quest/boss mob" issue.

  zimike

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/08
Posts: 124

12/01/12 7:33:57 AM#26
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by DavisFlight

Aventurine "gets it".


 

That is why DF is so successful...oh wait..

 


Originally posted by DavisFlight

"Because usually instance are used for technical reasons, for convenience of the developer."


 

Yeah, seems like Tassos does not get it...at all. Instances are primarily there to improve player experience - "50 people fighting over a single quest/boss mob" issue.

You just don't get it ... sigh!

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6923

12/01/12 7:36:48 AM#27


Originally posted by zimike

You just don't get it ... sigh!

Yep, because those who disagree with you don't get it because you are right...right?

  Snoepie

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/18/07
Posts: 493

12/01/12 7:37:35 AM#28

hello noobies..

 

Cya ingame.. when i slice you with my sword...

 

 

  Niburu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/12/12
Posts: 335

12/01/12 7:38:35 AM#29
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by DavisFlight

Aventurine "gets it".


 

That is why DF is so successful...oh wait..

 

That is because the game was not very polished at release, no other reaosn than that. UW adresses these concern to a degree.

 

 

  zimike

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/08
Posts: 124

12/01/12 7:55:17 AM#30
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by zimike

You just don't get it ... sigh!

 

Yep, because those who disagree with you don't get it because you are right...right?

I really shouldn't have to explain this one since it was already explained. Having to fight over a single mob for a quest is the poor game design talked about. To combat the POOR game design, devs had to create instances. This is not the case for every single game that uses instances, but a strong argument could be made for most. There are may other reasons to explain why instances are a cop out, but you really only need one. Its not about agree or disagree, its about fact. 

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6923

12/01/12 7:56:40 AM#31


Originally posted by Niburu

That is because the game was not very polished at release, no other reaosn than that. UW adresses these concern to a degree.

So lack of security measures, exploits, heavy skill grind design, no safe zones driving people of the game, forced PVP, etc has nothing to do with it because there is a significant player base that want "features" I listed?

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 5170

12/01/12 8:03:38 AM#32

So Eq1, UO, DAoC, basically any gen 1 MMORPG more than 10 years ago "got it" as none of them had instancing. 

Need I mention that some like EQ1 were themeparks with no instances......

My point is that having instances or not is not indicative of sandbox or themeparks, nor is it indicative of a good or bad game. It's just a technology that is all.

 

  DarthRaiden

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/05
Posts: 4547

i make art,
till someone dies.

Forum Terrorist

12/01/12 8:06:49 AM#33
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by DavisFlight

Aventurine "gets it".


 

That is why DF is so successful...oh wait..

 


Originally posted by DavisFlight

"Because usually instance are used for technical reasons, for convenience of the developer."


 

Yeah, seems like Tassos does not get it...at all. Instances are primarily there to improve player experience - "50 people fighting over a single quest/boss mob" issue.

 

Aventurine unfortunately don't "get's it" cause they start to violate against principles of good game design . 

BUT..the seamsless world is one thing the do get  right .

in your example in the quote  one important word is missed..

"50 people fighting over a single Boss mob"..in a "antagonistic" designed environment.

They not only fight the Mob but fight also over the right to fight the mob  and loot it.  That puts another gameplay layer on top which is enrichment over an existant  feature.

 

-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!

"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6923

12/01/12 8:07:02 AM#34


Originally posted by zimike

I really shouldn't have to explain this one since it was already explained. Having to fight over a single mob for a quest is the poor game design talked about. To combat the POOR game design, devs had to create instances.

If players are fighting over single mob, that is indeed an issue and poor game design.

Yet, fixing the issue is still poor design? I think your logic fails very hard here...


Game design you do not like does not make it a poor design.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 5170

12/01/12 8:09:19 AM#35
Originally posted by Snoepie

hello noobies..

 

Cya ingame.. when i slice you with my sword...

 

 

You mean when your pixel avatar "moves" (just lights up to be precise) some pixels on the screen..... Slicing anything with a sword would actually require getting out of the computer chair and using muscles.

just wanted to clear that up :)

it is always amusing when people refer to pixels on screen as "I"

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6923

12/01/12 8:10:02 AM#36


Originally posted by DarthRaiden

They not only fight the Mob but fight also over the right to fight the mob  and loot it.  That puts another gameplay layer on top which is enrichment over an existant  feature.

Might be rich but that does not imply it is desired by players...in fact, I would say it turns most of them off.

  zimike

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/08
Posts: 124

12/01/12 8:13:17 AM#37
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Niburu

That is because the game was not very polished at release, no other reaosn than that. UW adresses these concern to a degree.


 

So lack of security measures, exploits, heavy skill grind design, no safe zones driving people of the game, forced PVP, etc has nothing to do with it because there is a significant player base that want "features" I listed?

 

 

You need to learn to lighten. Checking over many of your 5k posts, they are all negative. Are you just simply trolling? Your always bashing this and insulting that. It just seems like your ether A) Trolling and get a kick out of responses like this, or B) your live a very sad and depressing life. 

Try to be a bit more positive. If you have something negative to say, perhaps bring up a couple positive points too :)

 

 

Darkfall had many problems due to lack of funds and poor design in the beginning, but they managed to over come most of them. I'm sure any game that comes out will have exploits, so Darkfall certainly didn't create the patent for this behavior.

Skill grind was heavy, but that changed a long time ago. Yes, I wish the grind would have been reduced greatly on release. This would have kept more people around.

Forced PVP? Well kind of. Starter cities did offer some protection. Players could still attack you, but they would end up being zapped to death by the guard towers and you could take all their stuff. This only became tricky if you were in a clan at war with another. However, you didn't have to join a clan if you didn't want too. 

I must agree with some points you have made, but most of these issues got fixed later. Hell, new players had protection they could enable for X amount of hours and no one could attack them at all.

 

 

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6923

12/01/12 8:34:33 AM#38


Originally posted by zimike

Try to be a bit more positive. If you have something negative to say, perhaps bring up a couple positive points too :)

I am not negative, I am just realistic and reality can be depressing :)


Darkfall is horrible game from design perspective. It consists of things that might look pretty on paper but do not work well in reality.


Nothing really got fixed. The game is flawed deeply in core mechanics and design.


It is trying to mix games such as War of Roses or Chivalry: Medieval Combat with traditional MMO attributes such as persistent world, character development, loot, crafting and grinding.

Mixing 2 vastly different player archetypes in one large pot makes the experience unsatisfying for either targeted audience.

Aventurine realize they do want and need more casual player base but are unable to adapt and stubbornly insist on hardcore PVP game design making only little compromises instead of taking radically different design approach.


There is little hope for DF since Aventruine successfully choke their game to death.

  DarthRaiden

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/05
Posts: 4547

i make art,
till someone dies.

Forum Terrorist

12/01/12 8:43:59 AM#39
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by zimike

Try to be a bit more positive. If you have something negative to say, perhaps bring up a couple positive points too :)


 

I am not negative, I am just realistic and reality can be depressing :)


Darkfall is horrible game from design perspective. It consists of things that might look pretty on paper but do not work well in reality.


Nothing really got fixed. The game is flawed deeply in core mechanics and design.


It is trying to mix games such as War of Roses or Chivalry: Medieval Combat with traditional MMO attributes such as persistent world, character development, loot, crafting and grinding.

Mixing 2 vastly different player archetypes in one large pot makes the experience unsatisfying for either targeted audience.

Aventurine realize they do want and need more casual player base but are unable to adapt and stubbornly insist on hardcore PVP game design making only little compromises instead of taking radically different design approach.


There is little hope for DF since Aventruine successfully choke their game to death.

 

 

The "traditional" MMO genre has been invented with "hardcore PvP design" as an element.   The root for all persistant worlds is all playstyles mixed together.  just saying.

What's new is the emphasis on action and FPP on the combat side of things.

(Because AV and DF:UW can't keep tradional playstyles alive we need to wait for a succesfull attempt on this, tho. There already new attempts made to crate sandbox experinece with action combat sytle on the way)

 

-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!

"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6923

12/01/12 8:52:05 AM#40


Originally posted by DarthRaiden

The "traditional" MMO genre has been invented with "hardcore PvP design" as an element.   The root for all persistant worlds is all playstyles mixed together.  just saying.

The keyword here is "element".

In DF tho, it is a core design formula.


And no, mixing all play styles together it is not the root of MMOS. That is why you have instances, battlegrounds, PVP on/off zones, etc.


Smart developers try to accommodate - allow full, enjoyable experience of various play styles but that does not mean you mix them together, on the contrary that makes the gaming experience non-enjoyable for most.

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