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MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

Greed Monger 

General Discussion  » Why I no longer support GM, and retracted my "backing" on Kickstarter.

6 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 » Search
116 posts found
  wowclones

Novice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 133

11/30/12 6:42:32 PM#61
The OP is doing you guys a favor by posting this.  As a game developer myself, all the OP's analysis on Greed Mongers credibility is spot on. This game will never see the light of day unfortunately. I have seen too many projects like this attempt such a thing, on top of that with Unity 3d. I feel sad for all who pledged.  I'd probably post the same thing but I didn't pledge nor am I naive enough to do so with my extensive background in game development. Considering he pledged  before seeing that video, he has all the right to warn others. You don't ask someone how can they "prove their team is capable" and they go into their "Directv events experience", their "music background" and "MMA experience" and not even answer the question. Should be enough right there.
  Brigander

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/11/12
Posts: 54

 
OP  11/30/12 7:10:18 PM#62

Thanks for your replies, I am glad there are others who see why this whole setup seemed odd.

 

 

Truth is that I can't quite put my finger on it.  Sometimes things just seem uneasy and flimsy, they seem a bit suspicious and confusing.  I guess that's what is how I view Greed Monger, I feel there's something off about the whole thing ever since I been researching it more.  On the outside it looked great, it looked like something impressively new, but when I dug deeper I only found more questionable material that made me back out.  I don't want to preach or repeat myself, I have made my points already, but  the truth is that I can't pinpoint ONE issue with this project/kickstart.  I think there's several small things that make me feel uneasy.

I think honestly that's how others felt too, and it's why a lot of others backed from kickstarting it.  There's still a lot of unanswered questions to me.  I will never accuse Jason Appleton of being a scammer, I don't believe that, but I don't know his motives.  To me it just seemd very out of the blue that a MMA fighter who apparently does a lot of projects suddenly turns around and wants to develop and MMORPG and is asking for $30,000 with no background in game design.  I am sorry, but looking at things with NO bias.. doesn't that seem... odd?  A guy asking for $30,000 to develop a game, his very first game, having never done it before, and out of the pure blue?  For some reason my mind goes back to the TV show "Lost" where Sawyer would drop a bit ol suitcase of money and and be like "Whoops, you weren't supposed to see that."  I feel like they showed a lot of quickly made content they bought, mashed together on a boughten engine, and asked for money.  I question really how much work was really done, and how needed the funding was.  

 

I guess everyone has their own levels of trust, I think the whole thing just raises many questions in my head, and when I saw the video named "The Faith in Greed Monger" I thought, "Great!  This is for me, because I want to know more," and I only was more upset and disturbed by the answers by Appleton, finding out more about his several jobs and careers, and how he admits he is aggressive to negative feedback.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4573

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

11/30/12 7:18:43 PM#63

OP is entitled to do as he pleases with his money.

 

I disagree with his views and will play asap. he can do as he wishes.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17084

11/30/12 7:20:11 PM#64

Honestly I just plain disagree with your "first".

From what I've seen and the people I've met in my years on this earth, there are people who "just can".

They dont' need a degree and they learn through their efforts. Case in point by the way, Yo Yo ma doesn't have a degree in cello or music.

I don't believe steve jobs or bill gates had degrees either. They just saw what they wanted to accomplish and did it. Regardless of what the naysayers say.

Quite frankly, the only thing I care about, ever is results. I don't care if you have experiene, I don't care if you went to the best schools and had the best teachers I just don't care.

I do care about the work. I've met people with higher degrees who really weren't all that impressive.

And, I've met people who never went to college who were just "that talented".

In any case, it's your money, do what you want. I generally dont' like this whole kickstarter business though I did pledge some money for Citadel of Sorcery. Afterwards, when they didn't make their ridiculoushly high goal, I was done.

If they never show anything then sure, you were right. But if you like what you see then that could tell you something.

 

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

11/30/12 7:20:20 PM#65
Originally posted by wowclones
The OP is doing you guys a favor by posting this.  As a game developer myself, all the OP's analysis on Greed Mongers credibility is spot on. This game will never see the light of day unfortunately. I have seen too many projects like this attempt such a thing, on top of that with Unity 3d. I feel sad for all who pledged.  I'd probably post the same thing but I didn't pledge nor am I naive enough to do so with my extensive background in game development. Considering he pledged  before seeing that video, he has all the right to warn others. You don't ask someone how can they "prove their team is capable" and they go into their "Directv events experience", their "music background" and "MMA experience" and not even answer the question. Should be enough right there.

And which MMOs have you shipped again?

Answer this:  How much experience in Space Travel do you think Elon Musk had before starting SpaceX?  Some of you people need to get a grip.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Brigander

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/11/12
Posts: 54

 
OP  11/30/12 7:21:58 PM#66
Originally posted by Robokapp

OP is entitled to do as he pleases with his money.

 

I disagree with his views and will play asap. he can do as he wishes.

 

I would like to think I did such in a respectful manner, you realize easily many would come on here and say something short and without any proof, and just make random accusations.  Say something narrow-minded like, "This game is dumb, big rip off of _____, don't bother."  I don't mean to attack anyone, or anyone's game.  If Greed Mongol can publicly ask others for money and funds, I think I am entitled to equally present facts and questions to the same public before they're easily glazed over by a few nice pictures and videos on boughten content.   I think perhaps sometimes when you look at the cosmetics and vanity of it all, it looks great, but below the surface it may not be as great as you think.  

 

 

 

Sorry Sovrath -- but you like a long list of others just read a short bit and not the whole thread (replies), you (again like many others) are just repeating what someone said a page back and I clarified.  I would advise you actually read the whole thread and discussion before trying to join in, because right now you're just like a bump in the road saying something said awhile back that has been discussed already.  Try reading more, thanks.  

  Rednecksith

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/12/09
Posts: 1272

Bite my fiery metal ass!

11/30/12 7:31:30 PM#67

I agree with the OP insofar as Mr. Appleton's amateurish  and unprofessional / shady conduct. To me he comes off as a complete shyster, and I personally wouldn't hand him a wooden nickel without something concrete in return.

The project looks interesting, but it's hard to see underneath all the red flags flapping in the breeze. Hopefully for all those who invested, things go well.

  atuerstar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 240

11/30/12 8:05:47 PM#68

When the computer games industry started - NOBODY HAD EXPERIENCE AS A GAMES DEVELOPER!

 

Yet so many of those early games captured the essence of fun with such simple idea's and tools - how did they all do it? What was their magic secret for success? Are they time travellers who got their degree then went back to start the industry? Nope - just common guys like you and I with brilliant idea's and the will to see them to completion. Games development is the one industry where buying your degree will NOT buy your success - the other factors play a much larger role for the overall creator or creative team.

 

I can hire anyone to do the jobs, to manufacture the product...but only I can sustain the overall complexity and systems of the game world within my mind and guide that ship into port. Ive got a gaggle of programmers right now trying to convince me to be their creative developer. I have no formal qualifications, I havent used photoshop and 3D modellers since the mid 90's, havent written a rpg system since 92, and generally despise this generation of itech-wankers that overpopulate the industry. Yet I have what none of the professionally trained degree holders dearly want - vision, talent and creativity. I will probably pass on the project as they wont allow me to use testicular shock collars linked to the QA bug report system.

 

You say its apples and oranges - and in a way you are right. Except you've completely overlooked the fact you just get apples if you just hire apples. You want a fruit salad you need to hire lots of fruits. Food for thought hmmm?

  atuerstar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 240

11/30/12 8:07:51 PM#69
Originally posted by MindTrigger

And which MMOs have you shipped again?

Answer this:  How much experience in Space Travel do you think Elon Musk had before starting SpaceX?  Some of you people need to get a grip.

 

Arg - Did you have to sum up my entire argument so succintly - damn you trigger!

 

:D

  BruceYee

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/04/08
Posts: 240

11/30/12 8:16:04 PM#70

Kickstarter is making it possible for the "little/unknown guy" to at least have a chance at producing a game in this hectic MMO(and economic) market.  I personally don't care about his past employement history and his obviously vocal nature if he ends up making something worth playing, and can pay a few employees in the process. His effort to produce a game isn't hurting anyone, and I'm sure we'll be able to judge for ourselves how the game turned out after it's released without spending a penny.

I do agree with you on some points you made about how this seems to be a phase for him, and it does look like a money grab with the whole selling of land bit that was mentioned.

However, I would also like to remind you that we have been lied to 100 times over by people who seemed more up-to-the-task than this guy. I think it's a plus rather than a negative that he's showing his true colors and not hiding behind the mask of "proffesionalism".

"If you can control a man's thinking, you do not have to worry about his actions. When you determine what a man shall think you do not have to concern yourself about what he will do."-Winston Churchill

  Castillle

Forum Bunny

Joined: 10/24/10
Posts: 2681

11/30/12 8:22:48 PM#71

There are two kinds of people in the world.  People who make stuff happen and people who watch stuff happen. 

Even if the team at GM sucks, theyre still trying to make something they may or may not want.  Maybe its a cash grab  but really.  So what? 

While they may be rushing out to get their game shipped, Im calmly taking my time before even bothering with making games.  Why?  Because Im a control freak and I need to get my grubby lil hands on every little detail. 

PS: How do make textures?  I leik...srsly dun know! I been using MS paint but my piccies look kinda bad! Look at this awesome draft i made of a d00d!

In a few months, Ill be a texture making wiz0rd!

''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
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**This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6663

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

11/30/12 8:43:40 PM#72

I think the OP is digging too deep and forgetting some things.

From what i have seen in the game industry of late,i would be happy to see non coders or coding geeks be in charge.Also when yo uhire established CLONED producers,you are 99% most likely going to get more copy cat crap,that means nothing unique.

The assests for example,what is the difference if you hire some guys to make assests or you bu ythem from other guys who make assests?

Example if i make a building in a 3d modelling program,how is that different than if you hire someone to do it?If i create a cool looking texture and sell it to them ,it is no different than their team making it.

I can tell you flat out,that more often than not,outside people do BETTER work than dev teams because the yare not FORCED by time lines.

The first real take off game engine that had a tomn of people outside the industry making stuff was during the Unreal series.The assests that outsiders made were often far in advance of what the Epic team made.

Music scores,sounds,you can fidn a ton of people to make good ones,it doesn'tr change anything just because someone is making them under yoru roof.

Where the argument has weight is that having YOUR team make assests fo r a game,gives yo ua closer resemblance of what you want/need than trying to fit in some random stuff.

I feel the real truth in indie gaming is that they simply do not have the resources to make a great game,it woudl take them way too long.However i have just recently witnessed GW2 a game that got acclaims cut tons of corners,they basically operated liek an Indie developer by selling you half the assests the game shoudl have and half the content it should.

The problem is that an Indie developer cannot mass market and hype up their own product the way the big guys do.SO two guys selling the same quality of game ,one with marketing power will vastly outdo the small guy.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Golelorn

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/23/03
Posts: 1057

11/30/12 9:06:30 PM#73

I consider myself somewhat of an expert on horse manure. Game design not so much - I guess Appleton and I have a lot in common.

And let me tell you I smell a lot of horse manure.

 

However, after seeing what a lot of you guys spend your money on, and get your hopes up on I'm not the least bit surprised by this thread's direction.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17084

11/30/12 9:13:06 PM#74
Originally posted by Brigander

 

 

Sorry Sovrath -- but you like a long list of others just read a short bit and not the whole thread (replies), you (again like many others) are just repeating what someone said a page back and I clarified.  I would advise you actually read the whole thread and discussion before trying to join in, because right now you're just like a bump in the road saying something said awhile back that has been discussed already.  Try reading more, thanks.  

I opened the thread, read your statment and replied. It's just that simple.

If you clarified then 'sorry I didn't wade throught the several pages to see if you even bothered."

Perhaps if your original post needs clarification you could just edit it to be more precise in your position.

Just a thought.

  Ichmen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/06
Posts: 1234

hatred enriches.life is a prison, death a release.

11/30/12 9:26:15 PM#75

who cares about his experiance??? he doesnt need a degree in 3d art design or model rigging or coding he has people who have that knowledge. 

bill gates and steve jobs didnt have experiance in OS coding and look at what they created (or stole whatever) when you are creating a game its not 1 person doing it (minecraft was done on java as its easy to code) you have people with skills you lack to pick up where you lack. 

if you are a coder but suck at 3d design, you get someone on board who does 3d design. its not that hard to grasp. 

as for appleton as a person.. who gives a shit... there are lots of egotistical rude high priced game producers that people gladly shovel money to.  OP clearly does not understand what goes in to game design and assumes anyone can just wake up one morning and make their own game eng, assests ect... >>"

given how early alphaed GM is right now, i dont see a problem using bought assets and stuff they can always make their own after the game starts >>" hell blizzard does stuff like that with WoW they  get the basic stuff set then upgrades them later.

 

if you dont want to back it fine. (i dont do kickstarter stuff as i have no gurrentee of a game i want when its done) complaining because the guy in charge of the idea is just a  game and no experiance scrubbing toilets is just stupid. 

some of the best indy games are made by gamers with little to no experiance in coding >>" 

 

 

as a gamer i hope GM takes off, cause frankly right now its one of a few games that are actually unique and not cloning crap from WoW..

CPU: Intel Core i7 CPU 860 2.8GHz
Evga GeForce 670 FTW
Evga P55 SLI

<

  DSWBeef

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/09
Posts: 771

12/01/12 8:45:38 AM#76
I believe the thread has ran its course and should be closed. I shall see all people interested on GM on their own forums.

Playing: Archeage Alpha, War Thunder, World of Tanks
Waiting on: Archeage, Wild Star, Everquest Next and The Black Desert

  YojimboBimbo

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 174

12/01/12 1:12:37 PM#77
When I first read the post, I thought the OP was just being an A-hole, but after watching the video, that guy is pretty shady.  
  Mogus

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/04
Posts: 176

12/01/12 1:47:56 PM#78

Hello,

 I was reading this thread late last night and just have a few things to add.

Brig, in reading your initial post, there were so many one sided assumptions and inaccuracies in it, that it's obvious you have some kind of ulterior motive in your efforts here. I don't know what they are, or why, but you keep referencing the video interview to back up your claims which are exactly opposite of what I said in the video.

Just a couple points, we never went from 800 backers down to 500. We lost what we thought was about $8,000 in pledges due to the stir of who I assume is a friend of yours on the "other" forums. heh But it wasn't as bad as we thought and some came back and even upped their pledge later. It just what happens.

Secondly, you keep saying I sold male enhancement pills and referencing the video to back up your "facts". Nowhere in the video did it say I sold them. Even if I did, who cares? If I did, I'd say as much. However, as I said in the video, I was helping a national sponsor by giving them out to fighters and such to try them and everyone loved them, so I offered initially to help as a distributor, however, I was too busy at the time and changed my mind.

There are honestly so many points you've made, and have been seemingly intent on repeating with every page break that it's obvious you are on a determined mission. If that gives you a sense of accomplishment in your day, then more power to you my friend. I'm a builder, a creator, I like to learn new things and challenge myself. It's much easier to destroy than it is to create and destroying is a temporary fix where as the accomplisments of building or creating something last forever.

Just to touch on my lack of degree, that you seem to think is vital. After High School I started my first company. It was a web development company. Back in the days of billboard websites before java script and CMS and the like, I bought an HTML Reference book and grabbedd a Geocities account and taught myself HTML programming over the course of a weekend. That with my artistic background (that I got from my mother and grandmother before her, both amazing artists) I began creating websites for people. Right before my 21st birthday, I sold that company and my client list and was hired on to run the newly formed division within an IT Consulting firm with a 12 year track record. I was making $80,000 there and was just 21 years old. You know what? I left the company before I was 22. Why? Because I was miserable working for someone else making the decisions and after my boss, the CEO, turned down two major accounts due to "moral deficiency" I had to leave. What were the projects? Well, one was a company that bought out all of HQ Hardwares Assets and wanted to create a new hardware store called Beaver Lumber. A kind of Hooters themed hardware store where the clerks were attractive women who knew their products. Their logo was to be a Beaver. LOL I'm not making this up. Well, my boss was very religious which was great as he was a wonderful man, but he wouldn't take on this $80,000 ecommerce project which really cut my revenue. So I left.

I was at one time certified with over 40 HP Certifications and an IT Consultant. I failed my A Plus exam by 1 question however after studying for it for a solid week. I was actually training new guys with degress in computer science myself because I was one of the top techs. I then began a business plan for a new dot com startup that would have rivaled Monster.com and most certainly still would today if someone every created it, but alas, after finding over 1.2 million in ventur capital interest in my plan that I spent 6 months writing and planning, the dot com bubble burst and my VC interest fizzled.

I could go on.

The fact is, I've learned more in my time without college than I'm sure I would have having a degree. Now, I'm not saying my path is for everyone because you have to have the ambition to drive you through. But I've always had the opinion that unless you were a doctor or a lawyer or something of that nature, a college  degree was just a paper showing someone that you were worth hiring. I just prefered being the one doing the hiring.

Some of you think I'm shady and that's fine. Only time will answer those concerns. When I agreed to do the video with Markee I was already  very tired and it was a bit late, but I did the interview because I don't run away from problems or mistakes I've made. I'm a human man, out in the open for everyone to judge. I accept that. Everyone will have their own opinion of me. In time, many who are on the fence will begin to lend their support but it's nothing I'll be able to change through words alone. I'll simply have to let my actions speak for me.

To all of you that have come to my defense, I really appreciate it.

I am a stern but fair guy and no, I'm not your typical "suit". I'm big, I am blunt and believe it or not, brutally honest. You may not always like what I say and I may not always have all of the answers, but I'm also aware of the fact that like you, I'm merely human and the only way to grow is to admit faults and work through them while fixing mistakes made and keep moving forward. What I don't know, I learn.

That's really about it. The Kickstarter campaign is over. I have everyone's money. If this were a scam or I was some shady character with no intentions on fulfilling my dream, I wouldn't be here posting this. I'd have booked a flight to Mexico. lol The fact is, Greed Monger is being developed by some fantastic guys and while my Dev Skype Chat looks like the Matirix every day with lots of things I don't always understand, I'm learning every hour. We have some great things planned for the game and our community and I'm confident that in time, our success as a whole will be the best way to address all of the doubt, accusations and assumptions.

Thanks.

 

edited a couple typos. Probably still more. :P

www.greedmonger.com
Did you like Ultima Online? Then you'll LOVE Greed Monger!

  YojimboBimbo

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 174

12/01/12 2:21:58 PM#79
Originally posted by Mogus

Hello,

 I was reading this thread late last night and just have a few things to add.

Brig, in reading your initial post, there were so many one sided assumptions and inaccuracies in it, that it's obvious you have some kind of ulterior motive in your efforts here. I don't know what they are, or why, but you keep referencing the video interview to back up your claims which are exactly opposite of what I said in the video.

Just a couple points, we never went from 800 backers down to 500. We lost what we thought was about $8,000 in pledges due to the stir of who I assume is a friend of yours on the "other" forums. heh But it wasn't as bad as we thought and some came back and even upped their pledge later. It just what happens.

Secondly, you keep saying I sold male enhancement pills and referencing the video to back up your "facts". Nowhere in the video did it say I sold them. Even if I did, who cares? If I did, I'd say as much. However, as I said in the video, I was helping a national sponsor by giving them out to fighters and such to try them and everyone loved them, so I offered initially to help as a distributor, however, I was too busy at the time and changed my mind.

There are honestly so many points you've made, and have been seemingly intent on repeating with every page break that it's obvious you are on a determined mission. If that gives you a sense of accomplishment in your day, then more power to you my friend. I'm a builder, a creator, I like to learn new things and challenge myself. It's much easier to destroy than it is to create and destroying is a temporary fix where as the accomplisments of building or creating something last forever.

Just to touch on my lack of degree, that you seem to think is vital. After High School I started my first company. It was a web development company. Back in the days of billboard websites before java script and CMS and the like, I bought an HTML Reference book and grabbedd a Geocities account and taught myself HTML programming over the course of a weekend. That with my artistic background (that I got from my mother and grandmother before her, both amazing artists) I began creating websites for people. Right before my 21st birthday, I sold that company and my client list and was hired on to run the newly formed division within an IT Consulting firm with a 12 year track record. I was making $80,000 there and was just 21 years old. You know what? I left the company before I was 22. Why? Because I was miserable working for someone else making the decisions and after my boss, the CEO, turned down two major accounts due to "moral deficiency" I had to leave. What were the projects? Well, one was a company that bought out all of HQ Hardwares Assets and wanted to create a new hardware store called Beaver Lumber. A kind of Hooters themed hardware store where the clerks were attractive women who knew their products. Their logo was to be a Beaver. LOL I'm not making this up. Well, my boss was very religious which was great as he was a wonderful man, but he wouldn't take on this $80,000 ecommerce project which really cut my revenue. So I left.

I was at one time certified with over 40 HP Certifications and an IT Consultant. I failed my A Plus exam by 1 question however after studying for it for a solid week. I was actually training new guys with degress in computer science myself because I was one of the top techs. I then began a business plan for a new dot com startup that would have rivaled Monster.com and most certainly still would today if someone every created it, but alas, after finding over 1.2 million in ventur capital interest in my plan that I spent 6 months writing and planning, the dot com bubble burst and my VC interest fizzled.

I could go on.

The fact is, I've learned more in my time without college than I'm sure I would have having a degree. Now, I'm not saying my path is for everyone because you have to have the ambition to drive you through. But I've always had the opinion that unless you were a doctor or a lawyer or something of that nature, a college  degree was just a paper showing someone that you were worth hiring. I just prefered being the one doing the hiring.

Some of you think I'm shady and that's fine. Only time will answer those concerns. When I agreed to do the video with Markee I was already  very tired and it was a bit late, but I did the interview because I don't run away from problems or mistakes I've made. I'm a human man, out in the open for everyone to judge. I accept that. Everyone will have their own opinion of me. In time, many who are on the fence will begin to lend their support but it's nothing I'll be able to change through words alone. I'll simply have to let my actions speak for me.

To all of you that have come to my defense, I really appreciate it.

I am a stern but fair guy and no, I'm not your typical "suit". I'm big, I am blunt and believe it or not, brutally honest. You may not always like what I say and I may not always have all of the answers, but I'm also aware of the fact that like you, I'm merely human and the only way to grow is to admit faults and work through them while fixing mistakes made and keep moving forward. What I don't know, I learn.

That's really about it. The Kickstarter campaign is over. I have everyone's money. If this were a scam or I was some shady character with no intentions on fulfilling my dream, I wouldn't be here posting this. I'd have booked a flight to Mexico. lol The fact is, Greed Monger is being developed by some fantastic guys and while my Dev Skype Chat looks like the Matirix every day with lots of things I don't always understand, I'm learning every hour. We have some great things planned for the game and our community and I'm confident that in time, our success as a whole will be the best way to address all of the doubt, accusations and assumptions.

Thanks.

 

edited a couple typos. Probably still more. :P

Fair enough, I think your best bet would be to keep the lines of communication going with your fans/haters.  

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4573

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

12/02/12 3:04:46 AM#80
Originally posted by Brigander
Originally posted by Robokapp

OP is entitled to do as he pleases with his money.

 

I disagree with his views and will play asap. he can do as he wishes.

 I think I am entitled to equally present facts and questions to the same public before they're easily glazed over by a few nice pictures and videos on boughten content.   

 

Absolutely. If the product in question cant defend itself then its useless. also if its trying to please everyone, its useless. I'm not questioning your entitlement, I'm more bothered by the many walls of ext that appeared with the intent to shove the fist in the mouth of those asking questions.

 

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