Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Any PvE MMOs, since there is no "winning" in them.

Except when you dont get invited into Parties/Groups/Raids/Dungeons etc becaues you dont have the key items from the cashop that everyone else has. 

What MMOs is that happening in?

Every MMO?

In Vindictus if people don't have 14k ATK you don't get to play, without the cash shop you don't reach 14k, simple as that. Luckily I play with people I know, but don't say it doesn't happen, it happens in every MMO.

Same in Everquest1, while you can play for "free", if you don't get a subscription that unlocks your AA and raid items, you don't raid, period, raid guilds do not accept people who play for free, none do.

F2P games are not free, you are limited in F2P games to what exactly is free, and in all games I played except one (street gears) you eventually need to pay money to get access to the rest of the game and to enjoy the game, and you end up spending more in a F2P game than you used to in a traditional P2P game.

No idea why people think LOTRO is P2W. There isn't much you can spend money on that would make a difference at end game. And the game is doing well with a popular recent expansion.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Any PvE MMOs, since there is no "winning" in them.

Except when you dont get invited into Parties/Groups/Raids/Dungeons etc becaues you dont have the key items from the cashop that everyone else has. 

What MMOs is that happening in?

Every MMO?

In Vindictus if people don't have 14k ATK you don't get to play, without the cash shop you don't reach 14k, simple as that. Luckily I play with people I know, but don't say it doesn't happen, it happens in every MMO.

Same in Everquest1, while you can play for "free", if you don't get a subscription that unlocks your AA and raid items, you don't raid, period, raid guilds do not accept people who play for free, none do.

F2P games are not free, you are limited in F2P games to what exactly is free, and in all games I played except one (street gears) you eventually need to pay money to get access to the rest of the game and to enjoy the game, and you end up spending more in a F2P game than you used to in a traditional P2P game.

There's that pocket of elitist clowns in every MMO, sub or not. Look at GearScore in WOW. What you cite is the exception in F2P, not the norm, or are you also contesting the fact that only about 10% spend any money at all?

"In Vindictus if people don't have 14k ATK you don't get to play."

Don't get to play? Really now?

Originally posted by TheScavenger

So really, I guess it just depends on the company and what they do when they convert from pay to play to freemium. SOE is probably among the best...possibly Aion (but I haven't looked)...and bad companies, like EAware, Funcom and especially Turbine, that have horrible freemiums.

Guess like pay to play MMOs, there is bad/good.

Agreed, although being  Turbine fanboi, seeing the side of the scale you have them on makes me sad in the pants. :(

I think many people aren't understanding how Freemium works.

It has never been about increasing the player population and maintaining that level. The declining curve in population in most themepark mmos after content releases will always occur because of the game's design (developer created content vs player created content). 

ALL freemium does is maximize the potential for income with the exitisting player base and adds flexibility to how they do it. It gives ways for those willing to pay much much more than $15 a month to pay more and maximize new content $$$ return. Obviously many argue that this is more like turning over a banking system to loan sharks/mob rule rather than fixing the system itself.

Freemium is all about squeezing more money from the stone that is their player base rather than increasing the player base ... and as it turns out the player base is much more  juicy than many thought.

Originally posted by Tamanous

I think many people aren't understanding how Freemium works.

It has never been about increasing the player population and maintaining that level. The declining curve in population in most themepark mmos after content releases will always occur because of the game's design (developer created content vs player created content). 

ALL freemium does is maximize the potential for income with the exitisting player base and adds flexibility to how they do it. It gives ways for those willing to pay much much more than $15 a month to pay more and maximize new content $$$ return. Obviously many argue that this is more like turning over a banking system to loan sharks/mob rule rather than fixing the system itself.

Freemium is all about squeezing more money from the stone that is their player base rather than increasing the player base ... and as it turns out the player base is much more  juicy than many thought.

Freemium does work that way in some business models, however one of the primary advantages of Freemium with an MMO, or any social environment (ex: ladies drink free night at a bar) is to make for a more populated and lively environment, further reinforcing the subscription choice of those that are already paying.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Any PvE MMOs, since there is no "winning" in them.

Except when you dont get invited into Parties/Groups/Raids/Dungeons etc becaues you dont have the key items from the cashop that everyone else has. 

What MMOs is that happening in?

Every MMO?

In Vindictus if people don't have 14k ATK you don't get to play, without the cash shop you don't reach 14k, simple as that. Luckily I play with people I know, but don't say it doesn't happen, it happens in every MMO.

Same in Everquest1, while you can play for "free", if you don't get a subscription that unlocks your AA and raid items, you don't raid, period, raid guilds do not accept people who play for free, none do.

F2P games are not free, you are limited in F2P games to what exactly is free, and in all games I played except one (street gears) you eventually need to pay money to get access to the rest of the game and to enjoy the game, and you end up spending more in a F2P game than you used to in a traditional P2P game.

There's that pocket of elitist clowns in every MMO, sub or not. Look at GearScore in WOW. What you cite is the exception in F2P, not the norm, or are you also contesting the fact that only about 10% spend any money at all?

"In Vindictus if people don't have 14k ATK you don't get to play."

Don't get to play? Really now?

 

"pocket"? You seriously haven't played Vindictus.

In Season 2 you either have the ATK or you don't join a boat. The mobs have an amount of Defense and if you don't spend some money on NX you are literally useless on a boat, you get kicked out of the group.

Maybe you're thinking "oh I'll just go the free way and grind it out" no that's not how it works, the chance of you getting the ATK needed by grinding instead of spending the money is nihil, by the time you get it the "free" way the game will be shut down, not to mention many items are "cash shop" only.

In Everquest if you don't unlock AA with money, you do not join a raid guild, it is not "a pocket", there is not a single guild on any server that raids and accepts people who don't have their AA unlocked.

These games would be far far cheaper if they were simply P2P instead of F2P of Freemium. Spending money is not "optional" in these games, you'll quickly realise that.

F2P is nothing more than a scam.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Any PvE MMOs, since there is no "winning" in them.

Except when you dont get invited into Parties/Groups/Raids/Dungeons etc becaues you dont have the key items from the cashop that everyone else has. 

What MMOs is that happening in?

Every MMO?

In Vindictus if people don't have 14k ATK you don't get to play, without the cash shop you don't reach 14k, simple as that. Luckily I play with people I know, but don't say it doesn't happen, it happens in every MMO.

 

 

Same in Everquest1, while you can play for "free", if you don't get a subscription that unlocks your AA and raid items, you don't raid, period, raid guilds do not accept people who play for free, none do.

 

F2P games are not free, you are limited in F2P games to what exactly is free, and in all games I played except one (street gears) you eventually need to pay money to get access to the rest of the game and to enjoy the game, and you end up spending more in a F2P game than you used to in a traditional P2P game.

The guild in EQ2 I was in several of the leaders were f2p, had great gear (usually crafted by the guild) and raided all the time.  They got around the craft post/sell limit just by having other guild members post things or sell things. Was pretty easy to do. 

EQ1, never really raided so I can't comment.