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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The amount of people who settle for Instanced PvP Trash simply amazes me.

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447 posts found
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10375

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/29/12 1:07:15 PM#221


Originally posted by ShakyMo
No but they didn't do it with lake wintergrasp, because A) blizzard are absolutely bloody obsessed with shoving everything on a bloody timer,making it in effect a battleground in disguise rather than a rvr area.B) they couldn't make the rewards too good or all the raiders would beef.C) its tiny in comparison to a planetside continent or daoc frontiers or heck even WvW.


Look at the target audience. They could could certainly create an entire continent dedicated to PS style game play, but they couldn't fill it with people.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  User Deleted
11/29/12 1:15:43 PM#222

First instanced pvp really cann't be a gank, since you know what is coming, even if you are fighting another player when a rogue pops out. You went into teh bg to pvp alone, no pve'ing really, where as in the open world you could be doing anythgin other than pvping, and then get jumped/ganked by a pvper without any desire/want to pvp at the time.  Alot of the time i see bgs as grudgefests, since i see so many players tunnel-vision after someone that killed them like they had a grudge against them or their class.

Also a great way of looking at instanced pvp in mmos is as fallows. It is like when some people go into a resturant order a steak, mash patatos, and some veggies, but ask that the mashed patatos be placed on another plate, or even that the steake be placed oon a seperate plate. It is not like they hate steak or patatos, but more that they might not want the juice from the steak ruining there mash patatos, or veggies flavor. Yet also they do not want to have to sit thru three seatings to enjoy all three things, instead they place them on their own plate to allow them to enjoy each in it's own time, while also being able to transverse between each if they desire to.  In this way you can say that to them instanced pvp preserves the flavor of pvp and the rest of the game for them, while open world pvp allows the rest of the game to sour the flavor of pvp an pvp sour the rest of the game's content too.

Also it is not so much that blizzard has a thing for timers, but that the wow crowd/playerbase like to know where they shoudl be, and how long till they can partake in the content again. Yet they do not want to feel liek they have to forego one set of content always to do the other content. Knowing that in 30 mins (for example) the zone become contested, and that your raid comes off cool down in 25 mins, allows the player to make the choice prior to an isue happening, While also allowing them to not have to treat a game as a job, but as a game for entertainment they can just enter into when their entertain is availible, and then leave when it goes away.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19117

11/29/12 1:24:24 PM#223
Originally posted by ShakyMo
No but they didn't do it with lake wintergrasp, because

A) blizzard are absolutely bloody obsessed with shoving everything on a bloody timer,making it in effect a battleground in disguise rather than a rvr area.
B) they couldn't make the rewards too good or all the raiders would beef.
C) its tiny in comparison to a planetside continent or daoc frontiers or heck even WvW.

a) true. WG does reset.

b) the size of reward is moot. PS2 does not have good rewards. Early certs can be quite slow. But that is not the point of the game. The point (for me) is to headshot someone else when they are not suspecting it.

c) It is large enough to have a taste although of course it is no where close to the size of PS2.

On the other hand, they do have vehicle combat and structure control. Those two ideas are not new to PS2.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19117

11/29/12 1:30:31 PM#224
Originally posted by Asuran24

Also it is not so much that blizzard has a thing for timers, but that the wow crowd/playerbase like to know where they shoudl be, and how long till they can partake in the content again. Yet they do not want to feel liek they have to forego one set of content always to do the other content. Knowing that in 30 mins (for example) the zone become contested, and that your raid comes off cool down in 25 mins, allows the player to make the choice prior to an isue happening, While also allowing them to not have to treat a game as a job, but as a game for entertainment they can just enter into when their entertain is availible, and then leave when it goes away.

I suppose the point is the PS2 has nothing but pvp .. so a timer is not needed, while WOW player can and often do other stuff too. So a timer is more useful.

  User Deleted
11/29/12 1:51:22 PM#225
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Asuran24

Also it is not so much that blizzard has a thing for timers, but that the wow crowd/playerbase like to know where they shoudl be, and how long till they can partake in the content again. Yet they do not want to feel liek they have to forego one set of content always to do the other content. Knowing that in 30 mins (for example) the zone become contested, and that your raid comes off cool down in 25 mins, allows the player to make the choice prior to an isue happening, While also allowing them to not have to treat a game as a job, but as a game for entertainment they can just enter into when their entertain is availible, and then leave when it goes away.

I suppose the point is the PS2 has nothing but pvp .. so a timer is not needed, while WOW player can and often do other stuff too. So a timer is more useful.

 Yea so really the time would be redundent in ps. Too many players make ot seem like hat devs/companies seem to make changes, or choices in the game design in a vaccum, when many times the choices (weither you like them, or not.) made are actually coming from feed-back, and trends in the game at large.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

11/29/12 3:03:43 PM#226

As a non-PvPer, the one thing that I enjoyed in Eve was the news.  The slowly-shifting strategic balance between various player factions and empires gave the game a texture, gave the economy moods and a added a sense of purpose to all the grinds.  That slow mutation of the large-scale state of the game is something that battlegrounds don't give, 

(That said, I'm not currently playing Eve - as much as I liked the news and shifting obstacles/opportunities, I'm not interesting in being live target practice)

  Jonoku

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 663

"Veni Vidi Vici"

11/29/12 3:08:31 PM#227
Originally posted by Laughing-man

World PVP = Griefing.  

Its as simple as that, you can argue the value of it all day long but 90% of the time all you will encounter in a game with open world PVP is griefing. 

 

Go to a PvE server, problem solved.

Looking at: The Repopulation
Preordering: None
Playing: Random Games

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19117

11/29/12 3:15:32 PM#228
Originally posted by maplestone

As a non-PvPer, the one thing that I enjoyed in Eve was the news.  The slowly-shifting strategic balance between various player factions and empires gave the game a texture, gave the economy moods and a added a sense of purpose to all the grinds.  That slow mutation of the large-scale state of the game is something that battlegrounds don't give, 

(That said, I'm not currently playing Eve - as much as I liked the news and shifting obstacles/opportunities, I'm not interesting in being live target practice)

And i doubt many players play a MMO to read news instead of killing some stuff.

Even on a MMOFPS like PS2, there is no slowly drifting strategic balance. Thing changes pretty fast, and it is merely a backdrop to kill more players in the other factions.

To that regard, PS2 is more like a battleground than Eve.

  Jonoku

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 663

"Veni Vidi Vici"

11/29/12 3:26:48 PM#229
Theres more enjoyable PvP on the forums then in-game nowadays.

Looking at: The Repopulation
Preordering: None
Playing: Random Games

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/29/12 4:08:27 PM#230
Asuran
No the use of a timer is redundant in wow. Why not let lwg run all the time and let players decide when to enter and leave.
  Skeeter50

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 155

11/29/12 4:15:06 PM#231
Originally posted by bcbully

You need both. Instanced pvp by itself is a huge design fail.

 

Swtor, TSW, and GW2 are all suffering because they decided to leave Wpvp out. 

I have been playing swtor for a week on a pvp server, and it has open world pvp planets starting at lvl 22.

  Vunak23

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

11/29/12 4:15:32 PM#232
Originally posted by Laughing-man

World PVP = Griefing.  

Its as simple as that, you can argue the value of it all day long but 90% of the time all you will encounter in a game with open world PVP is griefing. 

 

UO...LINEAGE 2...DAoC....Shadowbane.....shall I continue? All successful games with strong communities. More successful than a lot of games today. Hell Lineage 2 is still one of the most profitable games on the market. 

Also....Griefing is not exclusive to PvP as SO many of you are inclined the think. There are numerous ways to grief in a PVE strict game and have seen it time and time again. 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  Jonoku

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 663

"Veni Vidi Vici"

11/29/12 4:17:39 PM#233
Originally posted by Skeeter50
Originally posted by bcbully

You need both. Instanced pvp by itself is a huge design fail.

 

Swtor, TSW, and GW2 are all suffering because they decided to leave Wpvp out. 

I have been playing swtor for a week on a pvp server, and it has open world pvp planets starting at lvl 22.

Do you see any people around? did you enjoy the engine while experiencing 48v48? if you didn't experience any of that we consider OPvP to be non-existent in swtor. Why do you think people left swtor?

Looking at: The Repopulation
Preordering: None
Playing: Random Games

  Vunak23

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

11/29/12 4:20:51 PM#234
Originally posted by Jonoku
Originally posted by Skeeter50
Originally posted by bcbully

You need both. Instanced pvp by itself is a huge design fail.

 

Swtor, TSW, and GW2 are all suffering because they decided to leave Wpvp out. 

I have been playing swtor for a week on a pvp server, and it has open world pvp planets starting at lvl 22.

Do you see any people around? did you enjoy the engine while experiencing 48v48? if you didn't experience any of that we consider OPvP to be non-existent in swtor. Why do you think people left swtor?

Along with what Jonoku said:

Depends on the world. Tatooine, Hoth, Voss are examples of planets with decent world design that allowed you to cross paths with the other faction naturally. While most of the others you have to actively seek it out and are likely to not run into them even when you do that, because the faction area's are segregated and only the elite mission area's are shared. 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  Eir_S

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4665

GW2 socialist.

11/29/12 4:21:57 PM#235
Originally posted by Vunak23

Hell Lineage 2 is still one of the most profitable games on the market. 

Doesn't say much for the market...

  Vunak23

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

11/29/12 4:26:37 PM#236
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by Vunak23

Hell Lineage 2 is still one of the most profitable games on the market. 

Doesn't say much for the market...

Your right it says a lot. That games with deep systems and design aspects are wanted by a large margin of players still today. 

Sure Lineage 2 had its issues (the grind, movement mechanics, and bots being the primary), but it was and still is a very well designed game, with complex systems, meaningful PvP (sieges/territory control) and difficult PvE with world bosses that were great hotspots for PvEers and PvPers alike. 

 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  Bookah

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/04/10
Posts: 235

"you are not prepared!"

11/29/12 4:43:23 PM#237

We were all very sad When Aion (NC soft) buckled to presure and restircted open world pvp via their rifting concept.

That said AIon still contains many zone's that are full pvp and a lot of open world pvp still takes place

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5087

11/30/12 4:32:50 AM#238
You are saying that Aion changes its pvp areas? How did that work out? I know they opened these random rifts which could take you into the other factions zones. That did seem a bit dodgy and well random. So how does it play now?
  User Deleted
11/30/12 7:01:23 AM#239
Originally posted by Laughing-man

World PVP = Griefing.  

Its as simple as that, you can argue the value of it all day long but 90% of the time all you will encounter in a game with open world PVP is griefing. 

 

That is quite simply untrue for the vast majority. Unless ofc you either have some odd idea as to what exactly constitutes "griefing", or you are just prone to hyperbole.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10375

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/30/12 7:55:32 AM#240


Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by Skeeter50

Originally posted by bcbully You need both. Instanced pvp by itself is a huge design fail.   Swtor, TSW, and GW2 are all suffering because they decided to leave Wpvp out. 
I have been playing swtor for a week on a pvp server, and it has open world pvp planets starting at lvl 22.
Do you see any people around? did you enjoy the engine while experiencing 48v48? if you didn't experience any of that we consider OPvP to be non-existent in swtor. Why do you think people left swtor?



There is a long list of reasons people left SWToR. OWPvP is pretty far down the list. I would go so far as to say that OWPvP is not a major factor in any game's success or failure unless that game uses it as a primary game play mechanic.

In games where players can choose between PvE servers and PvP servers, more people choose PvE servers and the PvE servers are more populated. More people choose PvE with optional PvP. They aren't forced into that, it's what they want.

It's just not that important.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

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