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Originally posted by Sovrath

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Originally posted by lizardbones

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Everyone always thinks of themselves first when coming up with reasons for or against anything, like OWPVP. "I had a great time in OWPVP!" That's not what drives developers to create games though. There's what, twenty or thirty million people playing some type of MMO games in America and Europe. There's a lot less that are playing RPG specific MMO games. What percentage of those people playing MMORPG are playing OWPVP MMORPG? If the answer is less than half of the people, then most people do not play OWPVP games by choice. That's the important bit because that's the bit that developers are going to pay attention to. The millions of people who would rather PvE or PvP in an instanced area with the feeling balance. Complaining about it is fine, but any shock or dismay at developers creating instanced pvp or pve centric games is just sticking your head in the sand and ignoring reality.  

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I don't see how that's possible. You always have a choice. either play or don't play.

One doesn't "have to" play an open pvp mmo.

My thought is that if I enjoy something then it's more than likely that a few others will enjoy it too.  And to be honest, there are many things I enjoy that are NOT mainstream. That pretty much struggle just to happen. But they do happen and I'm completely cognizant that others don't enjoy them.

Of course large companies aren't going to back games that have a small demographic. But there are small game companies that are interested and who will make these games.

It's just up to the players who like these games not to be "too" picky or else they are going to have to resign themselves to doing something else with their time.

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Originally posted by mmoDAD

When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?

EverQuest II's 2006 Nagafen Server was a World PvP Server. It worked.

SWG's PvP was World PvP. It worked.

 

Ever since WoW, PvP has become pure trash. And to make matters worse, "World PvP" has become such a loose term that anything that isn't completely structured  is considered World PvP, e.g., SWTOR's Ilum - a dedicated area for PvP. This isn't World PvP. It's trash.

 

Servers should go like this:

Server #1 PvE (Optional Battlegrounds)

Server #2 PvP (World PvP)

 

I'll tell you why people waste time in these redundant battlegrounds. It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces. You want that little piece of reward that everyone will eventually have. It's boring. It's an embarrassment to the genre.

I don't want to see anyone fail. However, it would be a lie to not say I enjoy watching these Instanced PvP games turn into failed FTP games.

Don't think I could have said it better myself mate.

I don't understand why people actually like all these meaningless instances in their MMOs. If I wanted "instanced PvP" I'd play an FPS - Where it's a level playing field and it takes more skill to play.

Darkfall will satisfy both of those needs, for me atleast.

Nobody should be forced to PvP.  Let the gankers gank amongst themselves, just so long as they don't gank us.

Nobody should be forced to buy crafted goods.  Let the crafters craft amongst themselves, just so long as we can loot our gear.

Nobody should be forced to RP.  Let the RPers RP amongst themselves, just so long as we don't have to participate.

Nobody should be forced to type.  Let the typers type to each other, just so long as we can group with voice users.

Nobody should be forced to travel.  Let the travellers travel the long way, just so long as we can skip the travel and get to the quest.

Nobody should be forced to accept a person into our guild.  Let them form their own guild, just so long as we don't have to take them.

Nobody should be forced to team.  Let them team amongst each other, just so long as we can do their content solo.

Nobody should be forced to grind.  Let the grinders grind, just so long as we can skip the grind (for a fee).

Yeah, I've seen this kind of "nobody should be forced to" argument before.  It starts with the gankers.  It never ends with them.

Every single one of the arguments used against gankers can be used against whatever you like to do.  And every argument against what you like to do can be justified the same way.

Open world pvp can be done in a mmo pve, or otherwise, if you make it that it do not make it largely a annoince, with little to no effect on the world or beneffit to the players engaging in it. Yeah a pvper will jsut pvp in ow-pvp for the hell of it, but people that are not hardcore into pvp will avoid it largely if it has little to no effect on them, and they are merely food/toys for the pvpers to play with. Ow-pvp needs to have a place, meaning, and most of all a reward for the players that engaging in it regardless of what type of player it is. Making ow-pvp only give players pvp rewards (gear, titles, an pvp content.) just makes the pve crowd that also populate the world see it as a worthless feature.

Both pvp an pve content should feed into each other, making it that doing one, or the other actually effects, and also leads to opening of more content fro the other wise, which makes both sides actually benefit each other without actually having to fully interact in playstyles they do not like. Like opening up a pvp area for the players that like to pvp after the pve players take down a gate, or such, and then those pvping players when they finnally rest control of the new zone to their side it opens more content for the pve players to do (gathering, exploring, instances/raids, quests.), while the pvpers also gain acess to more items for their own style of play (thrru pvp, and pve play based on what you prefer.) while needing to even constantly keep control of a zone that is contested for ownership (never completely owned.).

Also though i hate the idea of pve/pvp specific gear, oriented stats or such to pve or pvp is one thign, but making specific stats that only effect one side fo the game is wrong. While to me a good game that wants to do both pvp an pve in the open world side by side, needs a dual stat value system in place. The system would have two pairs of stats that influence an abiltie/attack based on if it is used in pvp, or pve, and so then you merely nerf/buff the stat/value of the ability in the apporate pvp/pve value set.  this way no more worrying about a nerf to an abiltiy in pvp, will directly affect that abiltiy in pve content, since the abilty is actually from the base level function on two different values based on the content you are in.

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Originally posted by Adam1902
Don't think I could have said it better myself mate.

I don't understand why people actually like all these meaningless instances in their MMOs. If I wanted "instanced PvP" I'd play an FPS - Where it's a level playing field and it takes more skill to play.

Darkfall will satisfy both of those needs, for me atleast.

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personally i like both.

instanced pvp for when i'm alone and want an even numbered pvp battle with a little strategy thrown in the mix. easy to get into the action and not much lost either way. it's sort of like an arena where you pvp for sport more than anything. a mini game, sort of like a practice. 

world pvp is a completely different beast. it's usually unfair, gank fest, and can be both splendid or horrid depending on an incredibly ammount of different factors. there is usually a lot of time wasted looking for a battle. it's really a crap shoot, but the main trend is that the zerg usually wins. Open world pvp works best with sandboxes where dieing usually costs you your gear.

i agree that games should provide both, pve servers with instanced pvp, and pvp servers wiyhout instanced pvp (because if you have instanced pvp nobody bothers with world pvp).  i whould have multiple characters in each server.

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Nobody should be forced to PvP.  Let the gankers gank amongst themselves, just so long as they don't gank us.

Nobody should be forced to buy crafted goods.  Let the crafters craft amongst themselves, just so long as we can loot our gear.

Nobody should be forced to RP.  Let the RPers RP amongst themselves, just so long as we don't have to participate.

Nobody should be forced to type.  Let the typers type to each other, just so long as we can group with voice users.

Nobody should be forced to travel.  Let the travellers travel the long way, just so long as we can skip the travel and get to the quest.

Nobody should be forced to accept a person into our guild.  Let them form their own guild, just so long as we don't have to take them.

Nobody should be forced to team.  Let them team amongst each other, just so long as we can do their content solo.

Nobody should be forced to grind.  Let the grinders grind, just so long as we can skip the grind (for a fee).

 

Yeah, I've seen this kind of "nobody should be forced to" argument before.  It starts with the gankers.  It never ends with them.

Every single one of the arguments used against gankers can be used against whatever you like to do.  And every argument against what you like to do can be justified the same way.

 

 

People with this mentality just don't understand what an MMORPG is in its traditional sense. It's supposed to be a living, breathing persistant world. People should be able to effect (in a negative, or positive way) one another with their actions.

These mindsets shouldn't be playing these games, and should instead be on single player or regular multiplayer ones instead of encouraging more lazy developers to limit our worlds to even more linear gameplay. -sigh-

I have my home in Darkfall. Where people like this spend half their time in-game as a mangled, looted corpse propped up against a tree. -grin-

I imagine it's because the demographic clamoring for instanced PVP where everything is level consists of mainly the teenage crowd - adults realize that not everything in life is fair, nor should it be.

I'm not a large fan of pvp myself, but overall I would say I prefer Aion's model, back before they nerfed the begeezus out of the rifts.

World PVP = Griefing.  

Its as simple as that, you can argue the value of it all day long but 90% of the time all you will encounter in a game with open world PVP is griefing. 

Originally posted by Adam1902

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Nobody should be forced to PvP.  Let the gankers gank amongst themselves, just so long as they don't gank us.

Nobody should be forced to buy crafted goods.  Let the crafters craft amongst themselves, just so long as we can loot our gear.

Nobody should be forced to RP.  Let the RPers RP amongst themselves, just so long as we don't have to participate.

Nobody should be forced to type.  Let the typers type to each other, just so long as we can group with voice users.

Nobody should be forced to travel.  Let the travellers travel the long way, just so long as we can skip the travel and get to the quest.

Nobody should be forced to accept a person into our guild.  Let them form their own guild, just so long as we don't have to take them.

Nobody should be forced to team.  Let them team amongst each other, just so long as we can do their content solo.

Nobody should be forced to grind.  Let the grinders grind, just so long as we can skip the grind (for a fee).

 

Yeah, I've seen this kind of "nobody should be forced to" argument before.  It starts with the gankers.  It never ends with them.

Every single one of the arguments used against gankers can be used against whatever you like to do.  And every argument against what you like to do can be justified the same way.

 

 

People with this mentality just don't understand what an MMORPG is in its traditional sense. It's supposed to be a living, breathing persistant world. People should be able to effect (in a negative, or positive way) one another with their actions.

These mindsets shouldn't be playing these games, and should instead be on single player or regular multiplayer ones instead of encouraging more lazy developers to limit our worlds to even more linear gameplay. -sigh-

I have my home in Darkfall. Where people like this spend half their time in-game as a mangled, looted corpse propped up against a tree. -grin-

Affecting people positively is good for business, it's the negative thing that ruins it for everyone but the griefers.  It's been proven over and over again in past games, which has led the industry to optional PvP and a much greater emphasis on instance PvP.  It has also culminated in the ultimate PvE mechanics such as shared credit for kills, shared resource nodes, phasing for boss mobs and so forth.  You see, the genre has learned its lessons, while people like you willfully ignore them.

Also an mmo is a game, that is played for the enjoyment of the paying customer, and so what it was traditionally does not matter in the least. The devs, company, and shareholders are out to make money, and if they make a great product in the process that is great, but in the end it is a form of entertainement  that is funded by the money of players that enjoy using it. Mmos stopped being about what most people think of as traditional quite some time ago, and started focusing on being games of entertainment, which has worked pretty well. Only a small minority of players in the grand scheme of things are not playing, or finding things they enjoy in the games.

An  got to say i find people tlaking about being hardcore in pvp, or pve games kinda funny, and yet also really quite sad. They really think it is that hard, or even meaningful to label yourself as "ardcore" For playing in a video game regardless of what style you play. Get over yourself an enjoy your style of play, and learn to be humble in knowing your enjoying yourself, over thinking just because you prefer another form of enterainment to another person it makes you any more or less of anything to them.

Originally posted by Adam1902

 

People with this mentality just don't understand what an MMORPG is in its traditional sense. It's supposed to be a living, breathing persistant world. People should be able to effect (in a negative, or positive way) one another with their actions.

Don't confuse understanding with rejecting. There is nothing sacred of what MMO is suppose to be. It is just a trial starting back in 1995. If some ideas (like world pvp) do not resonate with players, why not get rid of them. After all, MMOs are entertainment products.

In fact, people should not be free to affect others, if that make the experience bad. Case in point, ninjaing. Blizz is now rolling individual loot in LFR .. meaning you cannot affect whether the other person is getting an item. Same system in Diablo 3. You roll your own loot. Thus, there is LESS interaction between players. It is a good thing if it makes everyone's (or just a majority) gameplay experience better.

These mindsets shouldn't be playing these games, and should instead be on single player or regular multiplayer ones instead of encouraging more lazy developers to limit our worlds to even more linear gameplay. -sigh-

Shoulnt' be playing these games? That is the height of arrogance. Consumers should be able to play any game they see fit, and vote with their wallet. It is, after all, not a necessity of life. And in fact, it is not that people should not play MMOs with these mindset .. it is the devs WANT to include players with these mindsets.

So MMOs are transformed to accomodate these mindset. Let me put it this way ... i will only play a game on my terms. If a MMO devs want me to play his game, it better make a good experience for me, and my mindset. And i highly doubt you decide what mindset of players MMO devs should go after.

I have my home in Darkfall. Where people like this spend half their time in-game as a mangled, looted corpse propped up against a tree. -grin-

See . you have your game, and play by your own mind set. I will do the same. By the description, Darkfall is a game i won't enjoy, and i will play those games (D3, MH, PS2, DCUO ..) that i will enjoy.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Nari
I see you like planetside 2.

Now, imagine if when they first made wow, they had azeroth and kalimdor as is but also had a 3rd continent that played like ps2.

Wouldn't that have been so much bloody better than pretending to be playing a round of quake in warsong gulch.

Isn't Planetside just a scaled up version of a battleground?

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Nari
I see you like planetside 2.

Now, imagine if when they first made wow, they had azeroth and kalimdor as is but also had a 3rd continent that played like ps2.

Wouldn't that have been so much bloody better than pretending to be playing a round of quake in warsong gulch.

And they tried to do that with WG, with great success.

At the same time, LOL is also a great success .. so you can't say a round of quake in warsong gulch is not a good thing.

Now i would not oppose to a whole continent of PS2 style warfare in WOW or any other game but it has to be well done. PS2 is fun, not just because it is open zone large warfare, but also combat design, vehicle comabt, and a thousand other things. In fact, my take is that PS2, at least to me, will be same kind of fun, as long as it is big, even if it is instanced.

The fact that it is one same world is not that important to me. The key ingrediants are a) combat, and b) large scale.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Nari
I see you like planetside 2.

Now, imagine if when they first made wow, they had azeroth and kalimdor as is but also had a 3rd continent that played like ps2.

Wouldn't that have been so much bloody better than pretending to be playing a round of quake in warsong gulch.

Isn't Planetside just a scaled up version of a battleground?

Depends on your definition of a BG. It is ongoing ... and never reset. So that may be a difference. But other than that, it is pretty much a huge battleground, and you can port to several point instantly.

It does have a building/area capture mechanic, but it is not much different than the standard BG capture in WOW.

Originally posted by Purutzil

feel instanced PvP is a great thing. Open World PvP is just a gank fest and lets face it, something that is just about taking advantage of another player often times who stands no chance. Its a far less 'fair' match which Instanced PvP is able to deliver.

Instanced PvP is not a gank fest to you?

In arena style pvp you're more likely to rack up dozens of deaths in 15 minutes than you are in an open world environment.

MMO's to me are supposed to be WORLDS! and in the world sometimes you're out numbered, so you are required to improvise, adapt and conquer.

MMOs should not be arcade games which is what instance PVP is. An arcade game.