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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by lizardbones It's a combination of the setting and the people in the setting. An MMORPG has a persistent, shared world where players who are not waiting for raids do things that have nothing to do with the raiding players. A lobby can be persistent, but it's not a shared world. A lobby is the equivalent of the login screen to an MMORPG, where the player picks the server they log into.

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What about cross server functions then? WOW is going to have cross server grouping .. so the toons do not necessarily share a persistent world. So does that feature make WOW not a MMO?

Personally i think any stringent definition is not very useful. I don't care about what is a MMO or what is not. I care about if a game is good. If a feature i like turn a MMO into one that is not, by some rigid definition, i wouldn't care less.

The other way is also true. I like that D3 has a AH, which is pretty much a MMO featutre in a online MP game.

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Originally posted by Quirhid

One clear definition I've drawn for myself is, if you can play it offline, its not an MMO. Usually the definitions given by the posters here in mmorpg.com are more or less subjective, but the one I just stated is not.

Problem is that sadly this is changing in the wrong direction.

You have to be logged in to steam to play civ 5.

You have to be logged in to battle.net to play D3 and SC2. 

This never used to be the case for 'single player' games, like the predecessors to the games I mentioned. 

Your objective line in the sand is getting muddier unfortunately.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

MMOs often require you to schedule your life around grouping for the top content(raids or rated pvp).  Most multiplayer games allow you to play whenever you want, assuming enough people play the game at the same time as you.

 

 

Good MMOs don't make you wait in lobbies, they allow you to queue for dungeons/pvp while being anywhere and doing anything.  Only crappy ones make you sit in the zone of the instance itself spamming for groups.

 

Both have a fair amount of epeen involved.

 

 

Mode good MMOs dont make you sit in the zone of an stance spamming for groups.  Well guess what Mr. FrodoFragins your the type that should never step foot in an MMO.  Seriously Never once had I had to sit and spam more than 5 minutes in WoW prior to LFG.  Why?  Because I am a REAL MMO player.  First if I EVER had to Spam a channel after the 2 to 3 months on a server in WoW I did something wrong.  I made friends I added these friends to my friends list, I always kept in contact with these friends weather it was running an instance once a month with them or helping them out when they asked it of me.  I had 50+ friends on my friends list that I could message at any time and get help.  If I did have to spam guess what my name was well known as a good player that would help out.  So people who know of me from friends or guildmates always had a positive thing to say. 

Second I also picked a server which its population peak time Matched mine.  I wouldnt roll on a PST server as a EST player unless I played at 11pm ET or later.  So I was not sitting on servers which were at low population times

Third I also always made friends in my guild and setup events ahead of time.  Yes it required me to say hey guys Saturday at 7pm lets get together and run Strat.  Everyone would be like k kewl we will be there.  They all played the same general time as me.  

Something WANNBE MMO players who like you think that bad games dont have queues do not or will never understand.  MMOs are made for people who want to play with other people and will be social with other people.  Not play for some Dam tool to put you into a group.  Yes the tool is nice on a server only bases so if you are newer to the game and have 3 or 4 friends wanting to run group content will help you find that 1 extra person.  The tool is not their for you to endlessly queue and be a lump on a log.   MMOs were not created for Lobby game players who think that GIVE ME IT RIGHT NOW is the right attitude.  MMOs are meant to be social and for people to make friends in, not be played with no respects other people around you.  

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by lizardbones It's a combination of the setting and the people in the setting. An MMORPG has a persistent, shared world where players who are not waiting for raids do things that have nothing to do with the raiding players. A lobby can be persistent, but it's not a shared world. A lobby is the equivalent of the login screen to an MMORPG, where the player picks the server they log into.

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What about cross server functions then? WOW is going to have cross server grouping .. so the toons do not necessarily share a persistent world. So does that feature make WOW not a MMO?

 

Personally i think any stringent definition is not very useful. I don't care about what is a MMO or what is not. I care about if a game is good. If a feature i like turn a MMO into one that is not, by some rigid definition, i wouldn't care less.

The other way is also true. I like that D3 has a AH, which is pretty much a MMO featutre in a online MP game.

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The toons have a persistent world. When they travel to a dungeon, they are traveling to an instance that isn't part of the world anyway, so it doesn't matter if people who show up are from a different server.

Let's move on to the next pointless 'reason' that games like WoW are really just lobby based shooters. What about cross server realms? Doesn't that mean the toon doesn't have a persistent world? No, it doesn't. The toon still has a persistent world. It doesn't matter if that zone is shared between servers, the world is still persistent and the activities have nothing to do with the people raiding or the raids themselves.

This, like many threads on this site is a stupid discussion. That isn't aimed at you Nariusseldon, it's just an observation in general. There are obvious differences between games like D3, WoW and CoD. People who can't tell the difference don't care (and are happy, I'm sure), stupid (and angry apparently) or trying to start another pointless discussion on MMORPG.com where lots of people will oblige them.

It's not like we're discussing how WoW's end game feels like you're just playing a variation of a lobby based shooter. That would actually be a discussion that had a point. We could talk about how yes, there is a world outside of the raid, but that world becomes meaningless once you start raiding. Maybe we could discuss that it's like that because gamers have gotten used to and prefer the lobby based system, but like to see it in a different setting. Those are things you can discuss. No, we're here coming up actual reasons why WoW's end game is indistinguishable from lobby games because somebody doesn't like theme park games or raiding. I haven't read the whole thread but there's going to be a sandbox comment somewhere and a comment on how developers are lazy. I'm sure there's going to be a comment that starts with, "It's so simple, all developers need to do is..."

 

There are some good arugement points here.  Yes the world becomes meaningless after someone starts raiding.  Thats why fewer and fewer people go into instances.  Also WoW went to get more subscriptions as a way of being greedy, so they went towards a Lobby based game so types of gamers would come into the game.  Most MMO players prior to a LFG tool had long list of friends, in my case 50+.  I was also well known on my server as a decent tank or healer.  I made many friend, and guildmates of thoughs friends always said yes run with him, just dont be stupid.  Again I believe the MMO community has become daluted too much.  

Originally posted by lizardbones

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The toons have a persistent world. When they travel to a dungeon, they are traveling to an instance that isn't part of the world anyway, so it doesn't matter if people who show up are from a different server.

Let's move on to the next pointless 'reason' that games like WoW are really just lobby based shooters. What about cross server realms? Doesn't that mean the toon doesn't have a persistent world? No, it doesn't. The toon still has a persistent world. It doesn't matter if that zone is shared between servers, the world is still persistent and the activities have nothing to do with the people raiding or the raids themselves.

 

If you only spend 10% of your toon in that persistent world, does it count?

At the end, while i am sure there are logical differences, there is little in terms of gameplay. I can play WOW, exactly the same way i play Diablo 3, and group with players all across the world.

And the persistency of the WOW world affect you little. The only persistency that matters is your toon, which is also persistent in Diablo 3, WOT, and many other non-world online games.

What if instead of a menu for a lobby, D3 implemented a virtual world lobby that you can see the other toons in 3D. Does that make it a MMO?

Originally posted by Banquetto
When I last played WoW, a huge part of endgame was doing dailies in open world areas like Tol Barad and Twilight Highlands - where masses of open world PvP occurred. Haven't checked out MoP yet but I hear it is even more daily-focused.

When I last played Rift, a huge part of endgame was zone events and other open world action like PvP rifts.

Instanced content is just one facet of those themeparks.

Its the primary facet. And even the non instanced areas are anti social.