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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Will we ever see complex crafting again?

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60 posts found
  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5232

11/28/12 3:19:52 AM#41
The importance of crafting to the game is more of an issue. If it takes one step or 100 it does not matter if what you craft is no better than a drop. But yes I prefer complexity but as someone who is not a big crafter not too complex, a matter of taste I think.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

11/28/12 11:38:05 AM#42

I doubt crafting will ever be important in combat centric games .. just because of focus. I don't think many who are attracted to combat games want to spend a lot of time doing carpentry, or blacksmithing. In fact, in a game like WOW, blizz practically have to "bribe" players to max their trade skill sby offering perks (like special enchantment, or out right stat increase).

 

  User Deleted
11/28/12 11:44:32 AM#43

It doesn't have to be one or the other. You can have both complex crafting and a deep combat system. The result would be a more diversified community.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

11/28/12 12:04:27 PM#44
Originally posted by Foomerang

It doesn't have to be one or the other. You can have both complex crafting and a deep combat system. The result would be a more diversified community.

You *can* but why should you? I doubt many of the combat centric player would spend much time in complex crafting. And devs who don't focus may not be successful in either combat nor crafting.

You don't have to cater to everyone in a single game. And do we really need a more diversified community? The "community" of gamer is already so huge that you will never be short of people to play with.

  User Deleted
11/28/12 12:06:18 PM#45


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Foomerang It doesn't have to be one or the other. You can have both complex crafting and a deep combat system. The result would be a more diversified community.
You *can* but why should you? I doubt many of the combat centric player would spend much time in complex crafting. And devs who don't focus may not be successful in either combat nor crafting.

You don't have to cater to everyone in a single game. And do we really need a more diversified community? The "community" of gamer is already so huge that you will never be short of people to play with.


I come from the mmo school of thought that the point of these games is to grow a community through multiple game systems. We've had this convo before. I knwo we don't see eye to eye on the subject.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

11/28/12 12:12:44 PM#46
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Foomerang It doesn't have to be one or the other. You can have both complex crafting and a deep combat system. The result would be a more diversified community.
You *can* but why should you? I doubt many of the combat centric player would spend much time in complex crafting. And devs who don't focus may not be successful in either combat nor crafting.

 

You don't have to cater to everyone in a single game. And do we really need a more diversified community? The "community" of gamer is already so huge that you will never be short of people to play with.


 

I come from the mmo school of thought that the point of these games is to grow a community through multiple game systems. We've had this convo before. I knwo we don't see eye to eye on the subject.

Yeh. And i come to realize that games are about good gameplay, and a single game does not need to have it all. And that therei s a community across games.

Frankly i care very little about a community on a single game, or single server. I prefer a game let me play with anyone (like asking a friend who is on SC2 now to join me in a D3 dungeon). I found restricting my interaction with a community on a single server/game very limiting.

I do not see a reason for that limit.

I also believe focus is where devs can make better games. Planetside 2 will not be as good if the devs try to do crafting or pve. Diablo will not be so good if it has branching dialgue and real story.

I suppose we disagree, and we vote with our wallets.

 

  theAsna

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/16/09
Posts: 303

11/28/12 12:52:43 PM#47

I don't understand the point in crafting (actually I do, as a non-combat activity). Thus I doubt there will be a need for elaborating such game aspects in the future. Especially with all those contradicting requirements/expectations different players have.



Let's face it. In a themepark MMO this is just a waste of dev and player time. With all those restrictions on tradeability it's mainly useful to the crafter himself. Additionally better equipment can usually be found while doing group content and pvp. Anything you can possibly sell for a profit is a nice perk, but it will not last forever (this is hardly the case because of a high competition between crafters).



I understand the rationale behind rising resource requirements for higher level crafting recipes. In the beginnings it might have been used to keep stuff rare (which doesn't work in an MMO environemnt in the long run). It was always a timesink. Later it turned more into a moneysink, which is a remedy for a big flaw. Namely being able to increase in-game wealth indefinitely (leading to mudflation).



How does crafting look like most of the time?

1) You have to acquire crafting recipes.
2) You collect ingredients
3) You craft the items for which you know the recipes (requires steps 1 & 2).
4) Repeat step 3 to increase your skill with the crafting profession and raw material gathering skills.

There is nothing creative in this process (except for trying to optimize the crafting process). You can't experiment (i.e. use alternative ingredients and see what happens then). You can't determine how the crafted item looks like.



The creators of MMOs used equipment as an additional motivational factor (carrot on a stick). By this they made crafting obsolete, especially since other in-game activities offer better rewards. Equipment doesn't really last a long time. After gaining a few levels you usually can throw away your old stuff. Why craft at all under such conditions?



If equipment would last longer it would help. Of course some players would start to moan that they don't get rewarded as often as they'd like for playing a game. Crafting doesn't really need to be complex or difficult or time consuming. It would suffice to make standard equipment (with the chance on a few extra traits while experimenting with ingredients). Other in-game activities should also give standard equipment as reward. Why not allow the players to design the looks for their items themselves? Fashion trends change over time. So players would be constantly engaged in crafting (at least the dedicated crafters). Trade restrictions are really getting ridiculous in those games as well.

Developers complain that they don't have the resources to create all the content that players crave for. Why not let the players care for such in-game aspects themselves?
  Kiljaedenas

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 466

To err is human, but to really f*ck things up you need a computer.

11/28/12 1:03:10 PM#48
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by nariusseldon

I don't think it is resource well spent to make complex crafting in a combat centric game, and many MMOs are combat centric.

There are crafting focus games like Tales of the Desert.

EVE does it so well though. They have created the perfect environment for a symbiotic relationship between PVPers and PVEers. It is a great example of resources well spent.

So sorry, but I don't buy it. I know first hand that you are wrong.

To add to this, here are some stats from Eve: Over 9000 different "things" you can own, at least half of them are only player crafted, some take several days to build (Quick question to someone who knows: If all the required subcomponents plopped in your lap, how long does it take to build a Titan? I've been curious about this).

Where's the any key?

  User Deleted
11/28/12 1:14:01 PM#49

Will we ever see complex crafting again?

Yes.

Now that pretty much every single MMO developer has dumbed down their products to the point that  there is nothing left to be dumbed down anymore,we can say that MMO genre is dead.

and we can say long live MMORPGs.

Theres plenty of new MMORPGs coming where players can ,not just craft their characters but also  craft the whole world with their hands.

 

  Spider3

Novice Member

Joined: 10/17/12
Posts: 33

11/28/12 5:24:47 PM#50

last 24 hours to jump in in the alpha of GreedMonger scheduled for April 2013.

 

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/appleton/greed-monger-a-crafting-focused-sandbox-mmorpg

 

If you are looking for a crafting mmorpg , this is the way to go *smile*

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3481

11/28/12 5:34:39 PM#51
Originally posted by Arezon
Fallen Earth's crafting is pretty good. If you haven't tried it, you should.

Fallen Earth's crafting is far from complex. It is just simply a very long list of assembly recipes, no experimentation and resources are just about nodehunting. The crafting system is straightforward as it can be. I like it though, but it definately doesn't offer SWG complexity.

The placable harvesters in FE that can only be placed in PVP areas, is something that many exSWG crafters like the OP, wouldnt like at all.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

12/03/12 5:12:43 AM#52

I'd like to see a system where crafting went through the entire life cycle of an item design as continuous part of the game rather than something you encounter as you level each alt up through tiers of gear.

Stage 1: players at the bleeding edge research a new tier of item prototypes.  Each item's stats and appearance are actually constructed from a whole points/materials system of costs and benefits and is unique.

Stage 2: over time, as power inflation ticks on, players can teach their epic design to other master craftsmen who can reproduce it with a few less exotic resources required.   It's still a non-trivial commitment of time and resources to make one of these.  The bleeding-edge craftsmen move on to researching the next tier of gear to come.

Stage 3: the most popular few recipes for this tier become craftable with more generic materials ("iron" instead of "blessed, lightning-touched iron") and by ordinary craftsmen of the appropriate culture/guild.  Recipes for these designs begin to become available from NPCs/loot.  There's still a small commitment of time and resources, but it's not huge.

Stage 4: as item inflation continues, the item is made available from NPC merchants and/or quests request copies of the item in bulk.  Item is now considered an ordinary common, is obtainable by new players and can be manufactured in bulk..

Stage 5: the item is now obsolete (below the norm for new-player gear) and appears only as junk or as a template for archelogical relics.

 

  TalonsWing

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/12
Posts: 33

12/03/12 12:48:01 PM#53

Sigh I really wiah we had a Galaxies like crafting system.  I CANNOT believe I am not playing any MMOs currently.  What a shocker.  As crappy as people make Galaxies out to be, it was such a damn cool game particularly when you had an entire economy created by players who actually LOVED to make stuff.  

Of course I am waxing fondly.  THe game had a million flaws even pre NGE.  But it was fun just the same.

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1816

"I shall take your position into consideration"

12/03/12 1:10:40 PM#54
Originally posted by Quizzical

If banging your head against a wall for a week trying to figure out how to craft something is your idea of complex, then Uncharted Waters Online has complex crafting.

-----

The basic problem with crafting is that a large fraction of players don't like it.  If every time they want better gear, they have to track down a crafter who can make it for them, they're likely to get annoyed, quit, and go play some other game where the best gear comes from mob drops or whatever.

That means that a game with good crafting is likely to be populated mostly by people who like crafting and want to craft their own gear.  It's hard to sell crafted gear to someone who prefers to craft his own, which means that there isn't much of a market for it.  You can create artificial restrictions that make it so that a given player can only craft a handful of things himself, but how good is complex crafting if you're not allowed to touch most of it?

Not sure if I get you correctly. Feel free to correct me, but isnt specialization more realistic way to go? If allowing player to choose only 1 profession is artificial restriction as you mentioned, then I believe that complex crafting where you are not allowed to touch most of it is the way to go.

I find it so unrealistic when a person is a walking manufacture.

Make one person cut the tree, another person make the planks and third person build the house.

You want a horse?Find a guy that specializes in breeding animals.

The fact that there are hardly any restrictions in current MMOs is one of the problems in my eyes. Why dont MMOs try to go with realistic crafting like it would probably work in the time setting used for that MMO. I doubt there were people who were doing 10 professions and were able to make 100s of products. Furthermore, specialization would bring the community together since people would need one another. It would likely lead to urbanization. People would have a reason to build cities in order to bring various professionals together.

I described my idea of a sandbox game built around crafting in my signature, but I doubt you would want to waste your time to read that wall of text :oP

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1260

12/04/12 2:25:02 PM#55

No. We won't. Not an AAA American game, anyway.

 

Star Wars Galaxies' crafting system should be the minimum of all crafting. However, it's more about the dollar now than it is about creating a good game. MMO depth, complexity, and innovation is devolving while marketing ploys and bs gimics are evolving. It's garbage.

The Elder Scrolls Online is not going to be any different. I don't know why some of you are so hyped up. Been there, done that.

  GazthSonika

Novice Member

Joined: 12/08/12
Posts: 20

12/08/12 4:29:47 AM#56

The Repopulation will have a very engaging crafting system.  Saga of Ryzom also has a very good one.

 

Cheers,

GS

  Tuyet

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 135

12/09/12 2:10:43 AM#57

Repopulation does look like it will have a great crafting system.

If you want page long recipes with many many steps -- EQ had that over a decade ago and EVE from what i hear is sort of like that. But those are just long recipes where you gather the mats and plug the mats in.

If you want recipes where you can choose from  many different mats with different characteristics and plug them into a basic recipe that has many factors affected by the different stas of the different mats used to produce a piece of equipment with different stats based on the mats used -- Ryzom has that. You can even sort of play with the system out of game as a player made a crafting simulator called "Kipee Craft" ( just google it ).

As an example -- if i was going to make a piece of Heavy Armor -- I would normally want the parry to be high so i would add mats that had good parry stats to get higher parry -- i might also try and get the mitigation vs piercing high if I knew i would be fighting Kitins a lot as they mainly use pierce attacks :: however if i was going to make Heavy Armor for PvP and was going to wield a Pike, I might want to go in dodge mode rather than parry mode so I would use high dodge mats and maybe even out mitigations or nudge up the mitigation vs slashing as most Weapon wielders use Axes or Swords. This example is pretty simplified though - its much deeper than this. High end crafters often spend weeks just working on recipes.

A not too complicated specific recipe for Heavy Armor Vest  that i have used

armor shell :: 12 Supreme Tama Wood

Lining         :: 12 Supreme Dung Resin

Stuffing     ::  3 Supreme Koorin Oil + 5 Supreme Irin Oil

Armour Clip :: 3 Supreme Silverweed Sap + 4 Excellent Kirosta Tail

It does however take a long time to master a crafting skill line -- of Ryzoms 63 skills -- 39 are craft. For instance its not just Heavy Armor Master Skill -- Its Heavy Armor Vest Master skill -- with 6 heavy armor pieces thats 6 skills to master to be able to craft a Heavy Armor Set as best as can be done ( all else being equal ). 

  User Deleted
12/09/12 2:16:27 AM#58
Yes.  But unless the current trends break, we won't see it in any mainstream game.
  FrodoFragins

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2767

12/09/12 2:26:21 AM#59
I don't see how a themepark game can incorporate complex and time consuming crafting.  It would be great if you could get BiS gear from raids or crafting.  I just don't see it working well as one path will always be the easier/faster one.  If that turns out to be crafting then people wouldn't raid.
  User Deleted
12/09/12 5:33:00 AM#60
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
I don't see how a themepark game can incorporate complex and time consuming crafting.  It would be great if you could get BiS gear from raids or crafting.  I just don't see it working well as one path will always be the easier/faster one.  If that turns out to be crafting then people wouldn't raid.

 

One solution for this would be to put rare crafting materials in as raid rewards.  Then players would have to raid in order to generate mats for crafting in order to get raid quality gear.  However, I doubt the raiders would like it.

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