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General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The amount of people who settle for Instanced PvP Trash simply amazes me.

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447 posts found
  User Deleted
11/28/12 3:44:00 AM#141

I'm incredibly pro open world pvp (pro pvp generally), but instanced pvp as a subset of pvp, if far from "trash".

 

E-sport pvp can be incredibly fun and incredibly competitive. Just as open world pvp can be "trash" when handled badly and rammed into a game totally unsuited to it.

 

Open world pvp undoubtedly offers more in terms of knock on effects than instanced pvp, that is a no brainer. But if the game is not being set up to be an all encompassing sandbox or RvR game, then clearly instanced pvp has a lot of merits.

 

As with most systems/mechanics, it really boils down to what game you are trying to make and how well that system is applied.

 

We see the same kind of shit with regards to FFA full looting, AH vs Vendors, travel vs porting et al, all the time on these boards. Each system has their pros and cons and each suits a specific type of game.

 

Personally I do think the genre is being wasted, that by chasing the dollar and making everything as accessible as possible we are losing what makes the genre unique. I would rather see massive, open worlds with giant battles raging etc. But that is a larger topic of debate than "pvp".

  Banquetto

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1026

11/28/12 3:49:22 AM#142


Originally posted by DavisFlight
I'd say it stems from ignorance. Most new/casual MMO players are only familiar with the sub par systems in place in WoW. Or, they've only ever tried the gimmicky FFA PvP servers on PvE MMOs, which are by and large, poorly designed.

Surely it's infinitely more likely that, rather than being influenced by WoW, the "new/casual MMO players" are influenced by the fact that every non-Massively-Multiplayer PvP game in the universe features equal sized teams, and they think that's actually a pretty good way to have a contest of skills.

  User Deleted
11/28/12 4:02:51 AM#143
Originally posted by mmoDAD

When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?

EverQuest II's 2006 Nagafen Server was a World PvP Server. It worked.

SWG's PvP was World PvP. It worked.

 

Ever since WoW, PvP has become pure trash. And to make matters worse, "World PvP" has become such a loose term that anything that isn't completely structured  is considered World PvP, e.g., SWTOR's Ilum - a dedicated area for PvP. This isn't World PvP. It's trash.

 

Servers should go like this:

Server #1 PvE (Optional Battlegrounds)

Server #2 PvP (World PvP)

 

I'll tell you why people waste time in these redundant battlegrounds. It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces. You want that little piece of reward that everyone will eventually have. It's boring. It's an embarrassment to the genre.

I don't want to see anyone fail. However, it would be a lie to not say I enjoy watching these Instanced PvP games turn into failed FTP games.

 

Nagafen PvP never worked. It was zerg til rewards, then farm undergeared soloers at quest hubs.

In fact in the history of MMOs the only one that has done decent PvP is GW1, because it is completely skill based.

Lets face it, FFA open world PvP is primarily for griefers who don't really want a challenge.   

  User Deleted
11/28/12 4:13:15 AM#144
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by mmoDAD
 

 

Nagafen PvP never worked. It was zerg til rewards, then farm undergeared soloers at quest hubs.

In fact in the history of MMOs the only one that has done decent PvP is GW1, because it is completely skill based.

Lets face it, FFA open world PvP is primarily for griefers who don't really want a challenge.   

oh lawd

  dimnikar

Novice Member

Joined: 11/06/12
Posts: 277

11/28/12 4:25:57 AM#145
Originally posted by Banquetto

 


Originally posted by DavisFlight
I'd say it stems from ignorance. Most new/casual MMO players are only familiar with the sub par systems in place in WoW. Or, they've only ever tried the gimmicky FFA PvP servers on PvE MMOs, which are by and large, poorly designed.

 

Surely it's infinitely more likely that, rather than being influenced by WoW, the "new/casual MMO players" are influenced by the fact that every non-Massively-Multiplayer PvP game in the universe features equal sized teams, and they think that's actually a pretty good way to have a contest of skills.

QFT.

MMOs were *never* the pinnacle of PVP.

The only draw MMOs had was the class system and ablility to customize, grow and progress your character in PVP, something other genres copied years ago.

http://lyrics.iztok.org/verse/Lynyrd_Skynyrd/Simple_Man/80615

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

11/28/12 4:41:02 AM#146

More and more non-mmorpg games offer instanced pvp arenas as their gameplay.  Examples like LoL, WoT, Dota 2 or something that is closer to mmorpg combat - Forge and Forged by Chaos.   

Even more will come in future.

It mean that alot of people who play mmorpg's mainly for instanced pvp will leave for those games.

  makii

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/04
Posts: 318

11/28/12 4:46:02 AM#147

Instanced PVP is 1000x better then open world pvp.

Many reasons have been said already, for me its the long walk till you get 1 shot by somone and walk there again. Rinse and repeat.

  Whitebeards

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 750

11/28/12 4:47:53 AM#148

Ever since i read OP i have been twisting and turning sleeplessly in my bed. I feel low and depressed that some random dude  on internet questions my choice of enjoyment and looks down upon me.

My life will never be the same again. ;(

*hops into GW2 SPVP to blow off some steam*

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/28/12 6:10:35 AM#149
You guys going "well instanced pvp is popular in lol and Tf2" and what not, ate actually backing up the ops post.

That style of pvp is abundantly available in a better format in non mmos for free.

Mmos can't do this pvp as well. Give me a csgo match over a wow battleground anyday.

However mmos can do pvp that lobby games can't . Either the massive factional pvp as seen done very well in daoc and both planetsides and fairly well in other games like gw2 and war. Or the economy driven sandbox gvg pvp done very well by eve and to a lesser degree by various other games.

That is playing to a mmos strength.

Instanced pvp in a mmo is just a substandard add on mini game that you can done much better in non mmos.
  Cepheiden

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/28/09
Posts: 5

11/28/12 6:43:41 AM#150

Why is this even a discussion?

A good mmorpg should implement EVERYTHING and give out SUITABLE REWARDS.

It should have open pvp, ganking, arena pvp, 1v1, battlegrounds and anything else that hasn't been invented yet.

Devs are just being too lazy to implement everything of that in a proper way. By that standard every game on the market currently fails hard. (Yes except for eve, which sadly features a space setting and has arguably boring combat.)

 

I predict, that the company that sucessfully implements everything in an mmorpg will be the next big thing after wow.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/28/12 6:47:50 AM#151
Disagree. Mmos trying to cater to everyone end up being a jack of all trades and master of none.

Give me more games like planetside 2, that know who their audience is and give their audience the best possible experience.

Infinitely preferable to games just adding a couple of battlegrounds to a raid grinder so the can put a "got pvp" check on the game box.

We need different games for different players.
  User Deleted
11/28/12 6:57:31 AM#152
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Disagree. Mmos trying to cater to everyone end up being a jack of all trades and master of none.

Give me more games like planetside 2, that know who their audience is and give their audience the best possible experience.

Infinitely preferable to games just adding a couple of battlegrounds to a raid grinder so the can put a "got pvp" check on the game box.

We need different games for different players.

PS2 is a great game.

But from instanced pvp fighters point of view.

Imagine warsong gulch on PS2.

People standing on the starting area,joining instances.

What eis the next step on this instancing? well next step is instance inside instance which is allready instance.

 

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7015

11/28/12 6:59:47 AM#153
Originally posted by Kuppa

Incredibly ignorant and horribly stated argument. The fact that you don't like it doesn't mean its trash. Some people like a good balanced pvp fight, they don't need rewards just getting in there and pvping on a balanced field.

 

The same could also be said about OWPVP. There are folks who love it because it has "meaning", they like that constant threat or like to go hunt others. But we could do like you are doing and call it trash because it's basically just a gankfest, right? NO!

 

Different pvp for different tastes, deal with it.

Instanced pvp is an immersion break in any mmorpg with factions.

 

"There is no such thing as a fair fight" We crave Opvp/Wpvp for the realism it adds. Ceremonial fights like WoW Arena have their place, within the pvp ethos.

 

Battlegrounds all though fun at times make no since what so ever, thus the immersion break.  A game will suffer with only meaningless battle grounds.

  Keegar

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 19

11/28/12 7:01:18 AM#154

Instanced PvP is the best solution in my opinion, for themepark games.

 

For sandbox games it's terrible of course, and you want open world pvp, BUT with added incentive (full loot i.e.)

  Hefaistos

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/09/04
Posts: 136

11/28/12 7:11:32 AM#155

How to get rid of the zerg:

 

Huge Open WOrld + Free for All pvp + 100 objectives to defend/conquer/attack/loot + PvE included in the areas = Win

  Grunch

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/14/05
Posts: 520

11/28/12 7:31:04 AM#156

    I agree with everything the OP said. I think the game that did it best was DAoC. They have (had) end game world pvp that did not suck like STWOR’s. They also have battlegrounds for levels under fifty and they were not trash style pvp instances. These were on going battles over terrain. They also had plenty of PvE areas with no PvP at all. I really liked how DAoC balanced PvE, PvP, and World PvP (RvR). I really wish more games these days would copy something as cool as that instead of the old “copy/paste” of WoW features games that keep popping up.

I also enjoy watching these games fail and end up FTP. STWOR imo was one of the biggest flops ever. I had a lot of fun up until max level. I remember going to the "RvR, open world PvP" planet Ilum. Let me tell you, I actually spit up my drink when I saw the so called "world pvp" of Ilum. I laughed for hours than cried because I wasted $60.

"I'm sorry but your mmo has been diagnosed with EA and only has X number of days to live."

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10422

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/28/12 7:51:49 AM#157

The number of people who 'settle' for battleground style PvP should tell you something about what the majority of people actually want. They aren't suffering through the PvP, they're choosing to do it. The only people suffering are the ones who for some reason chose to play a game that has instanced pvp as one of the primary options.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/28/12 7:52:23 AM#158
Originally posted by Cepheiden

Why is this even a discussion?

A good mmorpg should implement EVERYTHING and give out SUITABLE REWARDS.

You had me, for half a sentence there.

Personally, I think players lost when it turned into a "game the system for the most effecient rewards turnover" contest.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

11/28/12 7:59:00 AM#159
Originally posted by Hefaistos

How to get rid of the zerg:

 

Huge Open WOrld + Free for All pvp + 100 objectives to defend/conquer/attack/loot + PvE included in the areas = Win

Nope - Griefers waiting at spawn areas to kill anything that comes in. There is zerg because you have to respawn and get killed again. Been in games where that happened - the griefers had fun, nobody else did. SO then people left the game and only the griefers where playing, it eventually died.

 

Sorry - it is not a win, not even close. The reason games like that are not being made is they cater to a small niche of people, not the masses. I know people don't like to hear that on this site, but that is reality. More players, more money = company survives for another day. Game are expensive to develop and code. Servers are expensive and sometimes a pain to maintain.  The basic idea is at the end of the day, a game company is out to make money. If they aren't, they won't survive and get people to put money in. All these Kickstarter games are great but that money raised from that is a small drop in the bucket compared to what really is needed to put out a game.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  User Deleted
11/28/12 8:10:26 AM#160
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Hefaistos

How to get rid of the zerg:

 

Huge Open WOrld + Free for All pvp + 100 objectives to defend/conquer/attack/loot + PvE included in the areas = Win

Nope - Griefers waiting at spaw areas to kill anything that comes in.

 

Sorry - it is not a win, not even close. The reason games like that are not being made is they cater to a small niche of people, not the masses. I know people don't like that on this site, but that is reality. More player, more money = company survives for another day.

Thats insane,somehow you are trying to tell that when its instance then this doesnt happen,i can tell you,every single WSG i have done in WoW,people are trying to get to the opponents spawn point and kill them there when they spawn.

Griefers waiting at spawn areas to kill anything that comes in.Thats excactly what happens in instanced PvP.

You should love it because you just want that one area and not world where you could do things differently.

 

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