Dissing the traditional tank and spank is all the rage today. All the cool kids hate it. The trinity system has been around for a long time since it replaced the "quad" when a specialized CC'er/buffer was also required. It must be time for a change right? "New" is better don'tyaknow.

The problem is that no one has really come up with a viable replacement for the trinity yet. Sure a lot have tried with more or less success. The best of those I have played so far being GW2. But even GW2 with everyone having the ability (more or less... "tanky" and "healy" builds do exist) to tank, heal and DPS has its problems.

A lot of the tougher fights in GW2 with champs, world bosses and in dungeons boils down to a risky game of aggro-pong with no class being able to withstand the full undivided attention of a tough mob for more than a few seconds... some better than others but even the heavy-armored classes will eventually have to start kiting the champion mob around like scared little girls while a train follows them both beating at it with mostly low damage abilities. GW2 jack-of-all-trades, AOE-happy classes excel at dealing with hordes of weak mobs but they sort of fall appart in the really tough boss encounters... and people die... a lot. Combat rezzing is a must so everyone has it. They've even spent soem extra time programming a "nearly dead" down state to make the whole self or other "rezzing" thing more fun... might as well since it's a big part of the game.

Other games like Rift with multiple specs and even WOW with its dual specs maintain the trinity but they give you multiple specs so that each class can do at least 2 of the 3 roles. This pressumably helps with forming groups, but in actual practice most will just play their favorite role anyway. The secret world goes that one better by making everyone able to be any of the 3 with their classless skill wheel... no hiding on that one. But I still hear a lot of excuses there about being good at just one of the roles.

So yeah you healers wiling to step-up, take responsibility and put up with all the finger pointing... until someone comes up with a much better system where you're really not needed you have my respect.

/salute.

Originally posted by Iselin

Dissing the traditional tank and spank is all the rage today. All the cool kids hate it. The trinity system has been around for a long time since it replaced the "quad" when a specialized CC'er/buffer was also required. It must be time for a change right? "New" is better don'tyaknow.

 

The problem is that no one has really come up with a viable replacement for the trinity yet. Sure a lot have tried with more or less success. The best of those I have played so far being GW2. But even GW2 with everyone having the ability (more or less... "tanky" and "healy" builds do exist) to tank, heal and DPS has its problems.

 

A lot of the tougher fights in GW2 with champs, world bosses and in dungeons boils down to a risky game of aggro-pong with no class being able to withstand the full undivided attention of a tough mob for more than a few seconds... some better than others but even the heavy-armored classes will eventually have to start kiting the champion mob around like scared little girls while a train follows them both beating at it with mostly low damage abilities. GW2 jack-of-all-trades, AOE-happy classes excel at dealing with hordes of weak mobs but they sort of fall appart in the really tough boss encounters... and people die... a lot. Combat rezzing is a must so everyone has it. They've even spent soem extra time programming a "nearly dead" down state to make the whole self or other "rezzing" thing more fun... might as well since it's a big part of the game.

 

Other games like Rift with multiple specs and even WOW with its dual specs maintain the trinity but they give you multiple specs so that each class can do at least 2 of the 3 roles. This pressumably helps with forming groups, but in actual practice most will just play their favorite role anyway. The secret world goes that one better by making everyone able to be any of the 3 with their classless skill wheel... no hiding on that one. But I still hear a lot of excuses there about being good at just one of the roles.

 

So yeah you healers wiling to step-up, take responsibility and put up with all the finger pointing... until someone comes up with a much better system where you're really not needed you have my respect.

 

/salute.

I think you miss the point.. classless roles are there for a reason... its more "realistic" no medical technician has the ability in real life or fantasy  to make someone completely healthy in like ten seconds while in combat... combat is boring and requires little movement or maneuvering.. in real life thats not the case... gw2 and other games are more realistic... therefore a healer is not necessary.

Originally posted by Iselin

Snip

Age of Wushu is handling it really well.

And its actually quite simple, you make players a lot tougher, you make some of the damage they take and deal incurable, and you make them being able to get out of the fight without taking damage too much damage, or being able to recover if they go in the defensive.

You fuck up, youll probably die, you dont, youll probably live. You have player characters have certain sinergies, you dont force them to work together, you reward them for doing so, and the better they work together the smoother it will all be.

you make players need eachother outside of combat  as well, and you make them grow outside of combat. when all you do is fight it stops being special. crafting is as good a mean as any to achieve that.

Swotor almost did it right. Had it only given everyone a single crew skill, global for your account, it would have stimulated interaction a great deal.

Im not saying "get rid of the trinity", just saying, a lot of games would benefit from not having it. Simply because people need diferent flavors. so you dont feel like you are playing the same game with different graphic style.

Variety is good.

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

I think you miss the point.. classless roles are there for a reason... its more "realistic" no medical technician has the ability in real life or fantasy  to make someone completely healthy in like ten seconds while in combat... combat is boring and requires little movement or maneuvering.. in real life thats not the case... gw2 and other games are more realistic... therefore a healer is not necessary.

Realism is it? Ok, let's have amputees and dead is dead... and no fireballs coming out your fingers either... scratch magic... and super stealth in well-lit open places... forget assassins (no great loss there :) ) realism is a slippery slope. Let's talk gameplay and game systems not realism please.

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

I think you miss the point.. classless roles are there for a reason... its more "realistic" no medical technician has the ability in real life or fantasy  to make someone completely healthy in like ten seconds while in combat... combat is boring and requires little movement or maneuvering.. in real life thats not the case... gw2 and other games are more realistic... therefore a healer is not necessary.

Realism is it? Ok, let's have amputees and dead is dead... and no fireballs coming out your fingers either... scratch magic... and super stealth in well-lit open places... forget assassins (no great loss there :) ) realism is a slippery slope. Let's talk gameplay and game systems not realism please.

 

 

if it fits within the lore its real.... if you can show me an ip with instant perfect health than it is viable.

edit: gameplay and systems were included.. i mentioned the lack of a healer and the lack of the trinity system was insinuated.

Originally posted by LhynnSaint

Originally posted by Iselin

Snip

Age of Wushu is handling it really well.

And its actually quite simple, you make players a lot tougher, you make some of the damage they take and deal incurable, and you make them being able to get out of the fight without taking damage too much damage, or being able to recover if they go in the defensive.

You fuck up, youll probably die, you dont, youll probably live. You have player characters have certain sinergies, you dont force them to work together, you reward them for doing so, and the better they work together the smoother it will all be.

you make players need eachother outside of combat  as well, and you make them grow outside of combat. when all you do is fight it stops being special. crafting is as good a mean as any to achieve that.

Swotor almost did it right. Had it only given everyone a single crew skill, global for your account, it would have stimulated interaction a great deal.

Im not saying "get rid of the trinity", just saying, a lot of games would benefit from not having it. Simply because people need diferent flavors. so you dont feel like you are playing the same game with different graphic style.

 

Variety is good.

Ok. I don't know Wushu. I'm sure it can be done better than GW2's attempt. And yes, SWTOR gave it the old college try. Ironic how the best flashpoint was the first one before anyone was specialized :) 

Variety is indeed good but change just for the sake of change or worse, for marketting purposes, ain't so good.

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

if it fits within the lore its real.... if you can show me an ip with instant perfect health than it is viable.

 

edit: gameplay and systems were included.. i mentioned the lack of a healer and the lack of the trinity system was insinuated.

Oh give me a break... If I can suspend disbelief for shooting fire out of my fingers (a controversial topic in Lord of the Rings Online, by the way) I can sure as hell do it for healing.

IPs? EQ, WOW, DAoC, Dungeons and Dragons... or does it have to be in print or made by Hollywood for your definition of IP? 

Originally posted by Iselin

was insinuated.

Oh give me a break... If I can suspend disbelief for shooting fire out of my fingers (a controversial topic in Lord of the Rings Online, by the way) I can sure as hell do it for healing.

 

IPs? EQ, WOW, DAoC, Dungeons and Dragons... or does it have to be in print or made by Hollywood for your definition of IP? 

I don't disagree with you. the point is everyone has different tastes. gw2 is amazing for those who like realistic combat. if you don't and prefer the trinity.. play those... I would say the same to those who say instancing and zoning ruins games.. a lot of ppl can easily overlook such things.. I personally believe that healerless games are more immersive and realistic... it forces u to adjust and learn how to play... I've played many trinity games and honestly.. its boring to me.

Well, i meant print or movie... its easy enough for someone to make up their own original... but even then.. does everquest have books or movies? wow have books or movies? if any of those ips have books or movies does the combat work the same as the games? if not.. its not realistic.

edit: for the record boss combat is pointless... unless u can use mechanics such as climbing and knocking the boss down... to me more epic combat would be increasing the number of mobs that the group has to deal with.. otherwise it would  be too unrealistic for me.  the best example of this is the kingdom under fire 2 videos... battle scale combat involving pve... that was amazing.

---

Originally posted by bossalinie
I'll pass. Playing the staring game with health bars doesn't get my rocks off. Not to say healing is bad, but yeah...

---

I haven't read the replies aside from the first few, but I must say there's been some progression towards healing and getting away from the mana bars. This has been done in SWTOR and it has been done very well.

Take bounty hunter healing (mercenary advanced class), the trooper being the Republic counterpart (which uses an ammo mechanic). The Bounty Hunter uses a heat mechanic: The more skills you use, to hotter your suit gets. Cooldown (lowering the heat) goes in tiers, where the lowest tier has the most cooldown rate. This opens up several options: Use skills patiently and reactively (or pre-emptively) and keep your heat low OR 'Oh !@#$'-situations and you'll have to use some cooldowns to push your heat down immediately. This also is great with dps and tanking, but I found it the most interesting as a healer.

The Trooper uses the ammo, as mentioned above. "The resource for their abilities is Ammo which recharges at a rate based off how much ammo is currently in your weapon (3/4 ammo recharges 75% speed, half =50% speed, etc) and can be quickly recharged with the ability Fast Reload." I haven't played the trooper myself yet above lv25, so can't really comment on healing awesomeness later on.

The Imperial Agent (Operative Advanced Class)/Smuggler (Scoundrel Advanced Class) uses Energy, which is a pretty well-known mechanic, but not very often used for healers. This goes coupled with quite a heavy HoT focus. The IA also uses the less energy is less regen rate idea.

Jedi Consulars and Sith Assassin healers basically use a well-know mana-like healing system.

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by Iselin

was insinuated.

Oh give me a break... If I can suspend disbelief for shooting fire out of my fingers (a controversial topic in Lord of the Rings Online, by the way) I can sure as hell do it for healing.

 

IPs? EQ, WOW, DAoC, Dungeons and Dragons... or does it have to be in print or made by Hollywood for your definition of IP? 

I don't disagree with you. the point is everyone has different tastes. gw2 is amazing for those who like realistic combat. if you don't and prefer the trinity.. play those... I would say the same to those who say instancing and zoning ruins games.. a lot of ppl can easily overlook such things.. I personally believe that healerless games are more immersive and realistic... it forces u to adjust and learn how to play... I've played many trinity games and honestly.. its boring to me.

 

Well, i meant print or movie... its easy enough for someone to make up their own original... but even then.. does everquest have books or movies? wow have books or movies? if any of those ips have books or movies does the combat work the same as the games? if not.. its not realistic.

I play GW2 and like it a lot. I did mention that it's the best attempt to replace the trinity in a game I have played. It's just not quite there as a viable permanent replacement. It's a very good try but it has its weaknesses as I pointed out.

In the open world and most dynamic events it works well... just not so much for those critters that can demolish you in a couple of hits: the casual procced heals and heal abilities are just too weak and the powerful self heal talents are on long cooldowns.

But it's a very tough thing to balance: Make it so you can survive a fight with a champion with some effort and the rest of the content is trivialized. It's balanced for the bulk of the game but there are many fights that still could use a powerfull healer.

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by Iselin

Dissing the traditional tank and spank is all the rage today. All the cool kids hate it. The trinity system has been around for a long time since it replaced the "quad" when a specialized CC'er/buffer was also required. It must be time for a change right? "New" is better don'tyaknow.

 

The problem is that no one has really come up with a viable replacement for the trinity yet. Sure a lot have tried with more or less success. The best of those I have played so far being GW2. But even GW2 with everyone having the ability (more or less... "tanky" and "healy" builds do exist) to tank, heal and DPS has its problems.

 

A lot of the tougher fights in GW2 with champs, world bosses and in dungeons boils down to a risky game of aggro-pong with no class being able to withstand the full undivided attention of a tough mob for more than a few seconds... some better than others but even the heavy-armored classes will eventually have to start kiting the champion mob around like scared little girls while a train follows them both beating at it with mostly low damage abilities. GW2 jack-of-all-trades, AOE-happy classes excel at dealing with hordes of weak mobs but they sort of fall appart in the really tough boss encounters... and people die... a lot. Combat rezzing is a must so everyone has it. They've even spent soem extra time programming a "nearly dead" down state to make the whole self or other "rezzing" thing more fun... might as well since it's a big part of the game.

 

Other games like Rift with multiple specs and even WOW with its dual specs maintain the trinity but they give you multiple specs so that each class can do at least 2 of the 3 roles. This pressumably helps with forming groups, but in actual practice most will just play their favorite role anyway. The secret world goes that one better by making everyone able to be any of the 3 with their classless skill wheel... no hiding on that one. But I still hear a lot of excuses there about being good at just one of the roles.

 

So yeah you healers wiling to step-up, take responsibility and put up with all the finger pointing... until someone comes up with a much better system where you're really not needed you have my respect.

 

/salute.

I think you miss the point.. classless roles are there for a reason... its more "realistic" no medical technician has the ability in real life or fantasy  to make someone completely healthy in like ten seconds while in combat... combat is boring and requires little movement or maneuvering.. in real life thats not the case... gw2 and other games are more realistic... therefore a healer is not necessary.

 What do medics do in the army?

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by Iselin

was insinuated.

Oh give me a break... If I can suspend disbelief for shooting fire out of my fingers (a controversial topic in Lord of the Rings Online, by the way) I can sure as hell do it for healing.

 

IPs? EQ, WOW, DAoC, Dungeons and Dragons... or does it have to be in print or made by Hollywood for your definition of IP? 

I don't disagree with you. the point is everyone has different tastes. gw2 is amazing for those who like realistic combat. if you don't and prefer the trinity.. play those... I would say the same to those who say instancing and zoning ruins games.. a lot of ppl can easily overlook such things.. I personally believe that healerless games are more immersive and realistic... it forces u to adjust and learn how to play... I've played many trinity games and honestly.. its boring to me.

 

Well, i meant print or movie... its easy enough for someone to make up their own original... but even then.. does everquest have books or movies? wow have books or movies? if any of those ips have books or movies does the combat work the same as the games? if not.. its not realistic.

I play GW2 and like it a lot. I did mention that it's the best attempt to replace the trinity in a game I have played. It's just not quite there as a viable permanent replacement. It's a very good try but it has its weaknesses as I pointed out.

 

In the open world and most dynamic events it works well... just not so much for those critters that can demolish you in a couple of hits: the casual procced heals and heal abilities are just too weak and the powerful self heal talents are on long cooldowns.

 

But it's a very tough thing to balance: Make it so you can survive a fight with a champion with some effort and the rest of the content is trivialized. It's balanced for the bulk of the game but there are many fights that still could use a powerfull healer.

i agree... the heals on gw2 aren't adequate... and being a heavy armor archetype doesn't seem to help too much. like i said... if boss fights/dungeons involved fighting huge numbers battles would be more about skill selection and dodging ability.. when fighting super strong Ie Giant bosses/ supped up dungeon mobs... your ability to play at times becomes more trivial.

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

I think you miss the point.. classless roles are there for a reason... its more "realistic" no medical technician has the ability in real life or fantasy  to make someone completely healthy in like ten seconds while in combat... combat is boring and requires little movement or maneuvering.. in real life thats not the case... gw2 and other games are more realistic... therefore a healer is not necessary.

Realism is it? Ok, let's have amputees and dead is dead... and no fireballs coming out your fingers either... scratch magic... and super stealth in well-lit open places... forget assassins (no great loss there :) ) realism is a slippery slope. Let's talk gameplay and game systems not realism please.

 

 

 Realism is one of the last justifications for getting your way.  Didn't you know it?  Notice how weight limits break "immersion".  That's another justification.

i agree... the heals on gw2 aren't adequate... and being a heavy armor archetype doesn't seem to help too much. like i said... if boss fights/dungeons involved fighting huge numbers battles would be more about skill selection and dodging ability.. when fighting super strong Ie Giant bosses/ supped up dungeon mobs... your ability to play at times becomes more trivial.

A lot of what you say boils down to this (correct me if I'm wrong):

• Realism with healing is low
• No healing creates more realism
• Heals are needed, but specialised healers aren't 
• Tanks are somewhat realistic due to having heavy armor

Originally posted by Quirhid
But it was so mindnumbingly boring! And its been done to death.

then heal a party with no "true" tank. oh its gonna be fun!

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

I think you miss the point.. classless roles are there for a reason... its more "realistic" no medical technician has the ability in real life or fantasy  to make someone completely healthy in like ten seconds while in combat... combat is boring and requires little movement or maneuvering.. in real life thats not the case... gw2 and other games are more realistic... therefore a healer is not necessary.

Realism is it? Ok, let's have amputees and dead is dead... and no fireballs coming out your fingers either... scratch magic... and super stealth in well-lit open places... forget assassins (no great loss there :) ) realism is a slippery slope. Let's talk gameplay and game systems not realism please.

 

 

 Realism is one of the last justifications for getting your way.  Didn't you know it?  Notice how weight limits break "immersion".  That's another justification.

its not a justification for getting my way.. if realism to me enhances immersion... than its not an issue... And as others have said.. everyone can get their way.. there are games out there with the trinity.. I choose not to play them.. and you can do the opposite.

I also play a console with weight limits.. and you can see the effects in the chars walk speed and run speed.. it didn't bother me whatsoever and made for interesting gameplay.

Originally posted by Freezzo

i agree... the heals on gw2 aren't adequate... and being a heavy armor archetype doesn't seem to help too much. like i said... if boss fights/dungeons involved fighting huge numbers battles would be more about skill selection and dodging ability.. when fighting super strong Ie Giant bosses/ supped up dungeon mobs... your ability to play at times becomes more trivial.

A lot of what you say boils down to this (correct me if I'm wrong):

• Realism with healing is low
• No healing creates more realism
• Heals are needed, but specialised healers aren't 
• Tanks are somewhat realistic due to having heavy armor

May I also point out that your earlier statement of no IP with any instant healing to full health and the likes is also something weird to say. When you want realism, you'll have to quit playing a character every time you get hit, you'll probably walk around with just half of your limbs and you'd die due to blood loss even after a fight. Realism isn't what games are about, hence the magic, tanking, fighting bigass monsters, everything really...

The problem I think is the dumbing down of the class roles. There's only 3 (sometimes 4 -> RIFT Support) left, whereas a game with 5 roles and not purely focused on dps would give way more interesting mechanics. That combined with less of a role requirement (needing a tank, healer, buffer, debuffer, dps) for everything would make a game more complex and possibly let those who dig deeper into the theorycrafting and using the full system be better than average dpsing joe.

you missunderstand my definition of realism.. realism is based on the ip.... if you are talking dnd/forgotten realms.. healing isn't instant and is mostly done with potions.  healers do heal.. but they don't restore full health. so what you are saying doesn't really apply.

edit: your idea about the actual system makes sense.. except for the fact that the games i've played with other char types.. most ppl still choose to go with the trinity.... instead of 1 tank and 1 healer or such.. they double up to be more effective...

they tend to go 1 tank 2 dps 2 heals/ 2 tanks 2heals 1 dps.. most don't make use of the crowd control and other char classes.

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by Iselin

Dissing the traditional tank and spank is all the rage today. All the cool kids hate it. The trinity system has been around for a long time since it replaced the "quad" when a specialized CC'er/buffer was also required. It must be time for a change right? "New" is better don'tyaknow.

 

The problem is that no one has really come up with a viable replacement for the trinity yet. Sure a lot have tried with more or less success. The best of those I have played so far being GW2. But even GW2 with everyone having the ability (more or less... "tanky" and "healy" builds do exist) to tank, heal and DPS has its problems.

 

A lot of the tougher fights in GW2 with champs, world bosses and in dungeons boils down to a risky game of aggro-pong with no class being able to withstand the full undivided attention of a tough mob for more than a few seconds... some better than others but even the heavy-armored classes will eventually have to start kiting the champion mob around like scared little girls while a train follows them both beating at it with mostly low damage abilities. GW2 jack-of-all-trades, AOE-happy classes excel at dealing with hordes of weak mobs but they sort of fall appart in the really tough boss encounters... and people die... a lot. Combat rezzing is a must so everyone has it. They've even spent soem extra time programming a "nearly dead" down state to make the whole self or other "rezzing" thing more fun... might as well since it's a big part of the game.

 

Other games like Rift with multiple specs and even WOW with its dual specs maintain the trinity but they give you multiple specs so that each class can do at least 2 of the 3 roles. This pressumably helps with forming groups, but in actual practice most will just play their favorite role anyway. The secret world goes that one better by making everyone able to be any of the 3 with their classless skill wheel... no hiding on that one. But I still hear a lot of excuses there about being good at just one of the roles.

 

So yeah you healers wiling to step-up, take responsibility and put up with all the finger pointing... until someone comes up with a much better system where you're really not needed you have my respect.

 

/salute.

I think you miss the point.. classless roles are there for a reason... its more "realistic" no medical technician has the ability in real life or fantasy  to make someone completely healthy in like ten seconds while in combat... combat is boring and requires little movement or maneuvering.. in real life thats not the case... gw2 and other games are more realistic... therefore a healer is not necessary.

 What do medics do in the army?

they patch you up.. being patched up and continuing the fight isn't the same.. as all of your wounds being removed and receiving full health.

The problem with healing is not the shattered suspension of disbelief, its just that it takes all the drama away from the fight, it becomes by the numbers, not only that, BECAUSE there is healing, bosses have to hit like trucks, otherwise his damage will be outhealed, and that means that the tank cant feel thought, after all hed be dead if he took those blows without the safety belt that is the healer, the others feel like they mean nothing, after all, even with the healer curing them they would still go down in a couple hits, the boss feels stupid, because hes not hitting the dude thats making all this possible (the healer).

oh and the healer... he mostly gets bored, an exepcion are those freaks that actually enjoy clicking their heals as fast as they can (granted, in some games there is a high degree of skill involved in healing, that doesnt make it any less idiotic).

Spam-healing  others is gamey, and devalues every single aspect of the combat only because its there. Got nothing agaist self heals tho, or out of combat healing.