Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I"m not talking b2p, I'm talking f2p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

It's been around for a very long time, before UO.

F2P is not the same as F2P with cash shop.

I have nothing against F2P games that fund themselves through advertisments or other means like Quake Online did.

But F2P with a cash shop is a disaster.

In a F2P game like Quake online that is funded through advertisments, ID tries to keep everyone happy, in a F2P game with a cash shop, the paying customers are way more important than the non-paying ones for developers.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I"m not talking b2p, I'm talking f2p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

It's been around for a very long time, before UO.

F2P is not the same as F2P with cash shop.

I have nothing against F2P games that fund themselves through advertisments or other means like Quake Online did.

But F2P with a cash shop is a disaster.

In a F2P game like Quake online that is funded through advertisments, ID tries to keep everyone happy, in a F2P game with a cash shop, the paying customers are way more important than the non-paying ones for developers.

Furcadia has been around since 1996 and is a freemium model with a cash shop.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I"m not talking b2p, I'm talking f2p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

It's been around for a very long time, before UO.

F2P is not the same as F2P with cash shop.

I have nothing against F2P games that fund themselves through advertisments or other means like Quake Online did.

But F2P with a cash shop is a disaster.

In a F2P game like Quake online that is funded through advertisments, ID tries to keep everyone happy, in a F2P game with a cash shop, the paying customers are way more important than the non-paying ones for developers.

Furcadia has been around since 1996 and is a freemium model with a cash shop.

F2p games are better for casuals that don't have the "Must have it all now" mentality.  They are terrible for hardcores.

every customer, paying or not, is a walking advertisement the game.  Every customer is a potential paying customer.  This is the model of the f2p game.

Originally posted by CalmOceans
That's great for them, current F2P MMO are a wasteland in a matter of months.

Once again no, current f2p games have the same populations or higher than most p2p games including wow.  For the ones that were f2p from the start, no real changes.  For the ones that went from p2p to f2p, I'd say most were wastelands (not all by any means) before f2p so f2p had nothing to do with that.

P2P : 15$ a month down to 10$ for longer subs.

       : Unlimited entertainment

       : Craft or tame a mount/transportation

       : Dungeon access unlimited

       : all items can be made or found in game

      : well pretty much everything at your finger tips 24/7 for 50 cents a day (stop being cheap)

F2P: 0.00$ +only few hundred $$$ a week on crap you get free in P2P ;)

       : Have to buy mounts (20-25$)

       : Have to buy dungeon access (10-20$x10+/-)

        : Pay for more storage

        : Pay for more characters

        : Pay for more races

        : Pay for more classes

        : Pay for decor

        : Pay for armor upgrades (chances to upgrade can fail!)

        : Pay for weapon upgrades (chances to upgrade can fail! )

        : Pay for "secret boxes" 1 in 25 items per box will be epic item .. But only .0000001% chance to get.....oooohhh wooooow

        : pay for ....well pretty much anything  they can suck a dime out of you , they will.........add yours here.

And the cash shop is updated usualy weekly or bi-weekly so you have to spend more to get the newest item lol ;)

Yeah ill stick to my 50 cents a day entertainment.........

Sometimes they can be pretty bad, sometimes they can be very good.  I'll use EQ2 and FE as examples.

I didn't have to buy a mount in either game, FE I crafted one, EQ2 I quested them.

Didn't have to buy dunggeon access in eitehr game.

Storage was not an issue in either game

Only had 3 characters in FE and one main, only a few in EQ2, characters was not an issue but they do have a charater, race, class limit.

No decor in FE, I did pay for decor in EQ2.  That was actually my reason for going back there a few months ago in the first place. Loved building that castle but I hit the 1100 item limit so that was that.

Didn'tneed to pay for armor or weapon upgrades in either game.  Crafted all my own stuff.  

No secret boxes in either game.

So yes again sometimes they can be bad, I'm not really liking vanguards f2p, but sometimes they are vey good.

edit - I actually wonder how FE is making any money since going f2p.  I don't mind item shops, however there was absolutely nothing I wanted in there.  Even the cosmetic stuff I thought was pretty darn ugly, would have loved to buy a good dog but no they only had ugly ones. 

Originally posted by CalmOceans
That's great for them, current F2P MMO are a wasteland in a matter of months.

Yes thats why Nexon has so little players on their games right?

Oh and lets not forget that the most concurrent users ever recorded come from a F2P mmo, Dungeon fighter Online.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Sometimes they can be pretty bad, sometimes they can be very good.  I'll use EQ2 and FE as examples.

I didn't have to buy a mount in either game, FE I crafted one, EQ2 I quested them.

Didn't have to buy dunggeon access in eitehr game.

Storage was not an issue in either game

Only had 3 characters in FE and one main, only a few in EQ2, characters was not an issue but they do have a charater, race, class limit.

No decor in FE, I did pay for decor in EQ2.  That was actually my reason for going back there a few months ago in the first place. Loved building that castle but I hit the 1100 item limit so that was that.

Didn'tneed to pay for armor or weapon upgrades in either game.  Crafted all my own stuff.  

No secret boxes in either game.

 

So yes again sometimes they can be bad, I'm not really liking vanguards f2p, but sometimes they are vey good.

edit - I actually wonder how FE is making any money since going f2p.  I don't mind item shops, however there was absolutely nothing I wanted in there.  Even the cosmetic stuff I thought was pretty darn ugly, would have loved to buy a good dog but no they only had ugly ones. 

Those were P2P first, F2P games originaly arent like that at all. Most my stuff from EQ2 and FE were obtained and collected before they went F2P.

Games like atlantica online on the other hand is nothing but a gambling game. Many more like that. F2P just hurts my eyes when i read about it and dread any of the newer games i like will be released that way.

Originally posted by Onomas

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Sometimes they can be pretty bad, sometimes they can be very good.  I'll use EQ2 and FE as examples.

I didn't have to buy a mount in either game, FE I crafted one, EQ2 I quested them.

Didn't have to buy dunggeon access in eitehr game.

Storage was not an issue in either game

Only had 3 characters in FE and one main, only a few in EQ2, characters was not an issue but they do have a charater, race, class limit.

No decor in FE, I did pay for decor in EQ2.  That was actually my reason for going back there a few months ago in the first place. Loved building that castle but I hit the 1100 item limit so that was that.

Didn'tneed to pay for armor or weapon upgrades in either game.  Crafted all my own stuff.  

No secret boxes in either game.

 

So yes again sometimes they can be bad, I'm not really liking vanguards f2p, but sometimes they are vey good.

edit - I actually wonder how FE is making any money since going f2p.  I don't mind item shops, however there was absolutely nothing I wanted in there.  Even the cosmetic stuff I thought was pretty darn ugly, would have loved to buy a good dog but no they only had ugly ones. 

Those were P2P first, F2P games originaly arent like that at all. Most my stuff from EQ2 and FE were obtained and collected before they went F2P.

Games like atlantica online on the other hand is nothing but a gambling game. Many more like that. F2P just hurts my eyes when i read about it and dread any of the newer games i like will be released that way.

Yes they were p2p originally however they are examples of good f2p.  There is no reason why a game couldn't be designed from the start that way.

I haven't tried swtors f2p, and truthfully have barely glanced at it, however they did have a f2p plan in the backpocket, just as an example.

Originally posted by ariasaitcho

What really irritates me about the whole "F2P sucks" argument: the examples of "F2P" games are games that converted to a F2P model. In other words, the publisher is trying to squeeze every last dime out of the game before it dies and think they can trick more people into playing (and spending money) on a crappy game with the F2P model. The exapmles of F2P cited every time: SWToR, LOtR, etc. Those are not F2P games! They are crappy games that failed with their original business model.

Your argument makes sense until you consider that some of the best F2P MMOs  on the market, as stated by both critics and fans, are those that have made the jump from P2P to F2P, namely STO, DDO, LotRo and Aion. Aion is considered the BEST value for money of ANY F2P MMO, including those that were born as F2P MMOs.

So your point stands so long as you ignore the "crappy games that failed", which then went on to be the best example of F2P games :)

Then there are the people who wax poetic about how they love grinding for stuff in WoW, but diss any F2P game because it's a "grindfest". Wait, wut? It matters not if you're grinding for rare item x or for levels, it's still a grind.

You're misrepresenting the level of grind in both in order to make your point. WoW has grind, but it's certainly not comparable to the amount of grinding one would have to do on an F2P game if one wishes to see ALL of the content available to them. That's how they're designed. They don't want the grind to be easy, but hard; if it were as easy as get from 1 to 90 in WoW (which is very easy), no one would ever spend any money, or so they think.

So no, there is no difference in grinding for a rare item or for levels when you fail to consider the amount of grind involved. There is a huge difference between having to grind for 40 hours to hit level cap, and having to grind for 150+ hours to get that super rare item.

Yes, there are plenty of F2P games that are poorly designed, ill concieved, and badly implemented. But the same is just as true of P2P too. Just because there are examples of bad games does not mean that the business model is a bust.

The point is clearly that the F2P genre has more POORLY designed implementations, which are invariably going to stick out like a sore thumb. The fact that failed P2P games that were panned by consumers can go on to make successful F2P games should tell you all you need to know about the quality of games in the F2P genre.

"F2P is a ripoff desigend to squeeze the maximum cash from gamers"; lol. This argument always amuses me especially when coming from a WoW fanboy. Lets use the WoW model, shall we? Go to retailer, buy box for $40-80, install game, go to web site to create account, pay $15 per month for sub with the understanding that the sub is how new content will be paid for, when new content is released pay $20-50 for access to content that was supposedly already paid for with the sub, repeat ad nauseum. (insert cash register sfx here) Sure plenty of F2P games can squeeze more out of a player per month than P2P games using the WoW model. But long term, companies make more money out of more players (thus achieving greater profits) than do companies using F2P. Just because the grip isn't tight, doesn't mean you aren't getting squeezed.

Again, you're misrepresenting information in order to make a point. You pay for the boxed copy of the game which gives you access to software. You then pay a subscription fee to access the game's servers. The fee does not cover content. When they release an expansion, you pay for the update to the software. The fee, again, does not cover that content.

I don't play WoW (because I dislike sub fees), but misrepresenting them to your own ends is hardly a great way to make a point.

Originally posted by Onomas

P2P : 15$ a month down to 10$ for longer subs.

       : Unlimited entertainment

       : Craft or tame a mount/transportation

       : Dungeon access unlimited

       : all items can be made or found in game

      : well pretty much everything at your finger tips 24/7 for 50 cents a day (stop being cheap)

   

F2P: 0.00$ +only few hundred $$$ a week on crap you get free in P2P ;)

       : Have to buy mounts (20-25$)

       : Have to buy dungeon access (10-20$x10+/-)

        : Pay for more storage

        : Pay for more characters

        : Pay for more races

        : Pay for more classes

        : Pay for decor

        : Pay for armor upgrades (chances to upgrade can fail!)

        : Pay for weapon upgrades (chances to upgrade can fail! )

        : Pay for "secret boxes" 1 in 25 items per box will be epic item .. But only .0000001% chance to get.....oooohhh wooooow

        : pay for ....well pretty much anything  they can suck a dime out of you , they will.........add yours here.

 

And the cash shop is updated usualy weekly or bi-weekly so you have to spend more to get the newest item lol ;)

 

 

Yeah ill stick to my 50 cents a day entertainment.........

 

I agree with you so much it isn't funny. I'm a casual gamer and people think I should like F2P more... but I don't. I really don't care for F2P at all. I like my sub knowing that I don't have to put any additional money out. And I could give less then a shit about the $15 a month. It's not a life altering amount of money... and if it is, you shouldn't be gaming as it is a luxury. 

Originally posted by NorseGod

What happened?

 

I see lots of complaints about the "free" games here.

F2P is still the future, for all video games. As the means of distribution continues to move online and as more and more companies realize that they don't need the backing of a large publisher, we're going to see the trend of F2P games increase. It opens a game up to a wider audience than it would have had before and it should, for singleplayer games, cut down on piracy a great deal.

However, the current F2P model just doesn't work. It's still too new of a concept and these pioneering companies are using it more as a way to nickel and dime customers in dying games (which is where most of the complaints are comming from) than as a true payment model.

F2P has some maturing to do, but once it does I think it will become the main payment model for all types of video games. In another ten years or so I think it's going to be difficult to find a game that expects you to pay upfront for it. Whether that is a good or bad thing for the industry I don't know. I think it's a good thing, but that's just me.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by CalmOceans
That's great for them, current F2P MMO are a wasteland in a matter of months.

Once again no, current f2p games have the same populations or higher than most p2p games including wow.  For the ones that were f2p from the start, no real changes.  For the ones that went from p2p to f2p, I'd say most were wastelands (not all by any means) before f2p so f2p had nothing to do with that.

Yeah .. LOL has more active players than WOW.

I am playing some planetside 2 now and there are LOTS of players. Every time i logged into DCUO, there are also a lot of players.

Originally posted by Onomas

   

          : Pay for "secret boxes" 1 in 25 items per box will be epic item .. But only .0000001% chance to get.....oooohhh wooooow

 

Yep, which is gambling.

I wouldn't be surprised if one day F2P MMO are prohibited from using this, it's pure gambling with real money, online gambling is illegal in many countries.

It's no longer about the game in those games, the game is a facade built around the cash shop. The goal is no longer playing the game, the goal is spending money in the cash shop.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
The gambling thing is s fair point. But p2p games have that too. Eq1 2 and wow have cards that only give a chance of a Mount

LoN (the card game) is half the reason I stopped playing EQ, there were other reasons but that was a major reason. I like friendly open games that are accessible to all, not what happens right now that one part of the community is the haves and the other the have nots (and it's not because I can't afford it, I can, I just don't think this is right).

If they can make F2P that rely on advertisments like sites do nowadays, then I'm all for it, but the cash shops devide players based on income, I don't think that's right at all.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

Nope, you twisted around my argument and argumented from the player point of view.

I'm asking why the developer keeps the non-paying customer in a F2P game.

two reasons:

1) as content for the paid customers. In a pvp game, there might not be enough people for you to kill if you don't have non-paying customers.

2) They are potential paying  customers. If you can convert 5% of them into paying customer, and it only costs electricity to keep them, why not?

The thing with F2P is always developer get greedy.  And it is the beginning of either grind for ever or spend massive money on the cash shop.

I do enjoy B2P/F2P games though.  You just need to find the less greedy cash shop game.  Which is hard to find.  Currently enjoying diablo 3 and guild war 2.  The RMAH and cashshop isn't bothering me that much in those 2 games.