Originally posted by tiefighter25

Originally posted by NBlitz
“Some developers cried,”
I hope they cried hysterically when the game engine was chosen.

Gordon Walton was the Bioware executive who chose the Alpha Hero Engine.

Needless to say, he was also the first of the SWTOR management team (Head of Bioware Austin) that was shown the door. In January of 2012, when after Launch, the game's performance warts (which affected development and game design) began to become apparent and the writting began to appear on the wall. (Lots of people canceling their subs before their free month was even up.)

I was one of those. No regrets.

Originally posted by DeniZg

Originally posted by Scorchien

[mod edit]

This.

I could never understand the hate for EA when it comes to SWTOR development. Bioware was given loads of cash, the amounts never given to anyone before, to make one MMORPG to rule them all. We know how it turned out.

If some super fun features were cut out six months before launch, where are those features now, almost a year after release?

 

Because a significant amount of staff was laid off just a couple months after release, when sub numbers had dwindled.

The game itself wasn't so bad, as I really enjoyed the PVE storylines.

If the game would have had another 6 months to a year who knows what it could have been.

Features cut that comes to mind might have been:

- Flora / fauna AI. Aka more life to cities and planets. Instead of the static lifeless zones we got now.

- Weather system.

- Better textures and graphics optimizations.

- Better space content, instead of On Rails arcade garbage we got now.

- Better, more tested and improved PVP.

The above are just some things that would have significantly improved the game, give it more persistent lifelike feel and overall more enjoyment.

Originally posted by mmoDAD

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

I don't think it was rushed. What I do think is they horribly misjudged what aspects were needed and important for the game to have longevity and significant subscription sustainability.

 

I belonged to the SWTOR forums since day 1. I have an Oct. 08 forum account. I watched, posted, and read all the way until launch. Each day would produce countless threads on the importance social features, e.g., exploration, crafting, ability to be yourself, gigantic worlds, etc.

The developers literally paid no mind to any of it. People weren't asking for SWG 2.0. They were asking for a deep Star Wars MMO.

Everything about SWTOR is simply terrible. In fact, it makes the entire Star Wars franchise look cheap (not that is wasn't already). It was a complete waste of time and an embarrassment to the MMO genre.

 

The last thing I want is another WoW. SWTOR didn't even do that. It gave us a console game with optional co-op.

     Agreed, along with other posters as well before this..  I was here years ago too when SWTOR was first announced and was excited that it might be the Star Wars IP to finally do the right thing.. But as the information leaked out, I kept saying this is nothing more then "Dragon Age" in a star wars skin.. (I never played KoTOR)..  As I had feared, it played exactly like a single player RP game with online co-op features, or instanced lobby features.. There is absolutely no depth to SWTOR whatsoever..  EA might hold more blame at the end of development, but Bioware holds ALL the blame for the original design.. Shame on both of them for using the star wars IP as a quick money grab..

Rushed? They spent 4+ years and 200+ million. How the hell can it be rushed? LOL

They tried to make KOTOR 4 and pass it off as SWTOR online mmorpg. Simple as that.

Has 1/10th the features of your standard new age mmo and 1/100th of your older mmo's.

The only thing they had going for it was the story line (which even a sandbox junkie like myself enjoyed), and the voice overs which i normaly just skipped anyways.

Other than that it played and felt like a single player console rpg. They ruined it by not making a true and epic mmorpg.

SWG2 with better mechanics would ahve been a better thing to follow than KOTOR :)

Originally posted by dotdotdash

Originally posted by mmoDAD

I belonged to the SWTOR forums since day 1. I have an Oct. 08 forum account. I watched, posted, and read all the way until launch. Each day would produce countless threads on the importance social features, e.g., exploration, crafting, ability to be yourself, gigantic worlds, etc.

The developers literally paid no mind to any of it. People weren't asking for SWG 2.0. They were asking for a deep Star Wars MMO.

Everything about SWTOR is simply terrible. In fact, it makes the entire Star Wars franchise look cheap (not that is wasn't already). It was a complete waste of time and an embarrassment to the MMO genre.

 

The last thing I want is another WoW. SWTOR didn't even do that. It gave us a console game with optional co-op.

I was also a member of the SWTOR boards from the beginning - and was the leader of one of the more well known communities on the site.

Fans and critics alike would share a whole wealth of desires for the game, feature ideas and requests, and offered valuable talking points on Bioware's approach to the MMO genre. The general consensus was clear: yes, we wanted an MMO (warts and all), but no one - not even the WoW fans - wanted World of Warcraft with Star Wars clothes on (which is what we ended up getting). There were lengthy discussions on this particular topic; Bioware claimed they were listening intently to what we had to say. I suppose at that point they were too far past the pale to do anything about it, but it should be clear now that the game they were making (and have made), and the game that consumers wanted were two very different entities.

The closed beta test was a farce. There were several loud voices in the beta community - myself included - that realised very early on what was happening internally, and what impact that would have on the game. When we got into beta we were promised a wealth of new features over the course of testing that would move the game beyond the rut it had seemingly dug itself, yet what ended up happening was an endless cycle of bug fixing with no new features making it to the test at all. I got removed from the CB for voicing my concerns, and a couple of the more vocal critics also got removed for creating talking points on the problems with SWTOR.

The fact that the community is so toxic should not be surprised. There exists an atmosphere of poison at Bioware Austin. It has left every developer, designer, artist and producer (even the higher ups) with a bitter taste in their mouths. A lot of those people have been moved around to other Bioware studios, and to other EA studios, and that atmosphere of toxicity is spreading. The comunity itself is a reflection on the lack of cohesion and synergy within the TOR team - and Bioware as a whole. Bioware have never been particularly good at engaging and running large communities for their games, often relying on fans to do that for them, but TOR is the first game I've seen where so many people have been so adversely effected by the vibe from a big studio.

TOR isn't going to be around for much longer, I'm afraid. Bioware won't learn anything from this experience as a studio, because Bioware (the brand) has been reduced to a toxic asset by SWTOR. EA are currently minifying Bioware back down to its original size, based out of Canada, and the rest of the studios and teams given to them with the takeover are likely to be dissolved. Even Mythic have moved away from assosiating themselves with BIoware. It's a real shame, considering they've put out some of the greatest video games ever made.

Not all of the blame can be placed at EAs door. In fact, very little here is EAs fault. Bioware started TOR before EA came in. They had lofty ambitions before EA came in, and only pursued the merger with EA to secure the funding needed to make the game. When it became apparent that Bioware Austin was a mess of mismanagement, along with a poorly envisioned game design, EA had to make the most out of a bad situation. They invested a huge sum of money in Bioware, and Bioware p****d is away. EA aren't making any friends by trying to profiteer off the failure of the team in Austin with the F2P conversion, but we shouldn't expect them to invest yet more money trying to save a sinking ship.

TOR isn't going to be around for much longer, and I wouldn't be surprised if the price Bioware pays is total disolution. I would not be surprised at all.

SOURCE!!!!!

This is a common misconception, as far as I saw.  BioWare was interested in a KOTOR 3 game before EA, but thats about it.

SWTOR was announced publically only after EA took over.

Originally posted by Onomas

Rushed? They spent 4+ years and 200+ million. How the hell can it be rushed? LOL

 

If it was not rushed then why was half the game chopped down?

It was rushed because EA wanted to get the game out before their compeitors, and had to chop stuff out to make it more viable for a quicker release. If they had more time, they could have made what they had in the game viable, without having to chop stuff out, and developers would not have cried

They even hired many more devs to get the game done. The game was huge and needed way more than 5 or 6 years to do properly.

If you are given 1 hour to level a char from 1-50 in SWTOR, you will fail as there is not enough time to do it all

If you are given 1 hour to complete 1 space mission in SWTOR, will succeed with plenty of time left.

The amount of time needed to create a game is proportionate to the size of the game, and SWTOR was MASSIVE, and became TOO BIG for them to handle. Usually when Bioware creates a game they release a game when it is ready, that is what has made all the games the best, but with EA, they did not have the time or patience and probably running ouyt of money for it too and had to push it out

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Onomas

Rushed? They spent 4+ years and 200+ million. How the hell can it be rushed? LOL

 

If it was not rushed then why was half the game chopped down?

It was rushed because EA wanted to get the game out before their compeitors, and had to chop stuff out to make it more viable for a quicker release. If they had more time, they could have made what they had in the game viable, without having to chop stuff out, and developers would not have cried

They even hired many more devs to get the game done. The game was huge and needed way more than 5 or 6 years to do properly.

If you are given 1 hour to level a char from 1-50 in SWTOR, you will fail as there is not enough time to do it all

If you are given 1 hour to complete 1 space mission in SWTOR, will succeed with plenty of time left.

The amount of time needed to create a game is proportionate to the size of the game, and SWTOR was MASSIVE, and became TOO BIG for them to handle. Usually when Bioware creates a game they release a game when it is ready, that is what has made all the games the best, but with EA, they did not have the time or patience and probably running ouyt of money for it too and had to push it out

Because if you havent noticed, majority of new released mmo's are chopped down lol. Half the content and features do not exist in new age mmo's that did in older games. And thats the reason many of these mmo's are failing.

Instead os messing around with voice overs they should have put effort into the core of the game first. SWTOR wasnt massive it was eye candy and KOTOR 4 with voice over's. Nothing about SWTOR was massive at all. The maps were linear, the exploration was chopped, crafting was bad, space fighting/flight was chopped down. I felt like i was a dog being led around on a leash.

New single player console rpg's offered more than SWTOR did.

Originally posted by Onomas

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Onomas

Rushed? They spent 4+ years and 200+ million. How the hell can it be rushed? LOL

 

If it was not rushed then why was half the game chopped down?

It was rushed because EA wanted to get the game out before their compeitors, and had to chop stuff out to make it more viable for a quicker release. If they had more time, they could have made what they had in the game viable, without having to chop stuff out, and developers would not have cried

They even hired many more devs to get the game done. The game was huge and needed way more than 5 or 6 years to do properly.

If you are given 1 hour to level a char from 1-50 in SWTOR, you will fail as there is not enough time to do it all

If you are given 1 hour to complete 1 space mission in SWTOR, will succeed with plenty of time left.

The amount of time needed to create a game is proportionate to the size of the game, and SWTOR was MASSIVE, and became TOO BIG for them to handle. Usually when Bioware creates a game they release a game when it is ready, that is what has made all the games the best, but with EA, they did not have the time or patience and probably running ouyt of money for it too and had to push it out

Because if you havent noticed, majority of new released mmo's are chopped down lol. Half the content and features do not exist in new age mmo's that did in older games. And thats the reason many of these mmo's are failing.

Instead os messing around with voice overs they should have put effort into the core of the game first. SWTOR wasnt massive it was eye candy and KOTOR 4 with voice over's. Nothing about SWTOR was massive at all. The maps were linear, the exploration was chopped, crafting was bad, space fighting/flight was chopped down. I felt like i was a dog being led around on a leash.

New single player console rpg's offered more than SWTOR did.

Yes, all MMOs get chopped as they all get RUSHED for release, and SWTOR was no exception, especially with EA pushing it out. If they had more time, or Bioware did not have EA breathing down their necks as Bioware alone would have kept going until it was all ready as they have done on their previous games they have done alone, then I doubt they would have cut the game down

Considering it made the "devs cry", the amount of content chopped must have been quite substantial / huge and had no intention of being added later. It was not massive because it was chopped down!

KOTOR 4? What happened to 3?

They said they had enough content to make KOTOR 3-9 and beyond in 2008, but it not all being there at launch was expected, but where it has now failed is that they have not been adding it constantly since release.

STO was also RUSHED for release, with loads of stuff missing, but at least they added it all later, and mainly wanted to mould the game around what the players wanted than what they/Cryptic wanted (which is Biowares mentality for SWTOR), which they are mainly doing, and STO is evolving quite well. It is far from perfect but it is not staying stale like SWTOR is.

Originally posted by ImperialSun

Originally posted by Scorchien
[mod edit]

 

[mod edit]

Well, TBH, most of SWTORs devs were fired.

And i could tell you tales and tales of how common man solved stuff that "Top proffessionals" screwed up.

Anyway, no words are needed, you have SWTOR as a proof lol

Originally posted by ImperialSun

Originally posted by Scorchien
[mod edit]

 

[mod edit]

So mmorpg.com forums should become mmorpgdevs.com or something? Only those qualified have permission to post? That'd make for a fun website :)

Blitz

Originally posted by Karteli

Not all of the blame can be placed at EAs door. In fact, very little here is EAs fault. Bioware started TOR before EA came in. They had lofty ambitions before EA came in, and only pursued the merger with EA to secure the funding needed to make the game. When it became apparent that Bioware Austin was a mess of mismanagement, along with a poorly envisioned game design, EA had to make the most out of a bad situation. They invested a huge sum of money in Bioware, and Bioware p****d is away. EA aren't making any friends by trying to profiteer off the failure of the team in Austin with the F2P conversion, but we shouldn't expect them to invest yet more money trying to save a sinking ship.

TOR isn't going to be around for much longer, and I wouldn't be surprised if the price Bioware pays is total disolution. I would not be surprised at all.

SOURCE!!!!!

 

This is a common misconception, as far as I saw.  BioWare was interested in a KOTOR 3 game before EA, but thats about it.

 

SWTOR was announced publically only after EA took over.

 

True that SWTOR was publically announced under the EA banner, but it's not that hard to fill in the gaps with what we know today.

What is known is that Bioware was already working on a by then unknown MMO at the time EA bought them. Since Bioware have only made one MMORPG (...I know, that can be debated lol) it can't be anything else but SWTOR.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/qanda-bioware-on-the-ea-buyout-6180866

Regarding Bioware and KOTOR, I remember reading comments like not ever again working with a StarWars based IP again (e.g working with/for Lucas Arts). Not sure where that came from though, if it was just rumours or leaks from Bioware? I guess Lucas Arts made them an offer they couldn't refuse?

I remember how surprised I was when it was announced that Bioware was  already knee deep into the Sarlaac Pit of StarWars MMO development. I thought for myself back then "This will not end well!" and well here we are today with another failed StarWars MMO lol.

Originally posted by mmoDAD

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

I don't think it was rushed. What I do think is they horribly misjudged what aspects were needed and important for the game to have longevity and significant subscription sustainability.

 

I belonged to the SWTOR forums since day 1. I have an Oct. 08 forum account. I watched, posted, and read all the way until launch. Each day would produce countless threads on the importance social features, e.g., exploration, crafting, ability to be yourself, gigantic worlds, etc.

The developers literally paid no mind to any of it. People weren't asking for SWG 2.0. They were asking for a deep Star Wars MMO.

Everything about SWTOR is simply terrible. In fact, it makes the entire Star Wars franchise look cheap (not that is wasn't already). It was a complete waste of time and an embarrassment to the MMO genre.

 

The last thing I want is another WoW. SWTOR didn't even do that. It gave us a console game with optional co-op.

Mostly this. I too joined SWTOR forums since day one in 2008 and said the same things. To no avail.

I would say SWTOR did make the class stories good and some details. I dont think ALL is bad. But overall too many things not there and not made right. As you say, too less a world, no sense for explorarion asf.

So as usual, well said, mmoDAD!

Originally posted by TheHavok
Probably not as rushed as other MMOs that launched, but nonetheless, it lacked a lot of refinement and polish.  Ability delay and terrible framerate stuttering (even on a good machine) killed it for me.

Ability delay still hasnt been fixed...