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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Will we ever see complex crafting again?

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60 posts found
  GwapoJosh

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/12
Posts: 1012

11/26/12 8:29:20 PM#21
Originally posted by Onomas

The repopulation and archeage (if i read right) will have indepth crafting.

But crafting in SWG wasnt complex, just indepth. Had 4 crafters :)

Just some people want everything right away and wont slow down to try a good crafting system. Why its usualy put on the back burner in newer MMO's :(

The Repopulation will have great crafting. I'm pretty damn excited to try it out :)

"You are all going to poop yourselves." BillMurphy

  DarkOmega

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/07
Posts: 29

11/26/12 8:37:51 PM#22
Originally posted by tixylix
Originally posted by idgarad
Originally posted by bigsmiff
Originally posted by idgarad
Originally posted by bigsmiff

I started crafting in SWG and I am now ruined with all other MMO's. After dealing with the complexity of SWG's system, I can't find anything else that is even close. In SWG, I would spend a whole day doing nothing but scanning for resources, putting down harvesters, checking my factories, crafting items and then doing my vendor work.

Do you think we will ever see anything like it again?

 

 

 

You think SWG was complex? *snicker*

 

Obligatory: Try Eve Online if you want Complex Crafting. Try the production chain for a Titan.

I tried Eve and I wasn't impressed at all. But, I didn't find the game fun enough to stick around long.

Eve is fun like model trains are fun. Eve is more a hobby then a game. Of course I find most MMOs more Hobby then game.

The problem with EVE is it isn't a 3D game, it's basically just text :\ 

I think you are very confused about which game is Eve. If you had tried it at all you would be a bit more informed then your post implies.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13821

11/26/12 8:40:41 PM#23

If banging your head against a wall for a week trying to figure out how to craft something is your idea of complex, then Uncharted Waters Online has complex crafting.

-----

The basic problem with crafting is that a large fraction of players don't like it.  If every time they want better gear, they have to track down a crafter who can make it for them, they're likely to get annoyed, quit, and go play some other game where the best gear comes from mob drops or whatever.

That means that a game with good crafting is likely to be populated mostly by people who like crafting and want to craft their own gear.  It's hard to sell crafted gear to someone who prefers to craft his own, which means that there isn't much of a market for it.  You can create artificial restrictions that make it so that a given player can only craft a handful of things himself, but how good is complex crafting if you're not allowed to touch most of it?

  Venger

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/04
Posts: 1322

Help Fight Global Warming
Shut Your Mouth :D

11/26/12 8:54:03 PM#24
Greed Monger is looking like it will have great potential.
  greenreen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1515

11/26/12 9:07:47 PM#25
Originally posted by Quizzical
...snip

The basic problem with crafting is that a large fraction of players don't like it.  If every time they want better gear, they have to track down a crafter who can make it for them, they're likely to get annoyed, quit, and go play some other game where the best gear comes from mob drops or whatever.

...snip

Wait, are you saying that you actually heard of someone leaving a game because they had to either search an auction house for crafted gear or pay someone for it?

 

Who are these people. Are they the ones telling us mmos are all about teamwork, grouping, and socialization but are ashamed to ask someone to make them something? Is it cleaner from the mob or dungeon boss rather than from a crafter's hand. Are they germaphobes lol

 

I've never heard of one person leaving a game because they had to buy crafted gear. If you don't craft you usually sell harvested materials to crafters and make back the cost of buying anything they sell.

 

Serious as a heart attack here - you really know someone that left a game because they would have had to buy crafted gear? There aren't that many games that even have crafted gear as the high end stuff. I don't fathom this, was the post a joke that passed over me. Sounds like craft-cism to me and I shant be party to it.

 

 

 

  centkin

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/01/10
Posts: 828

11/26/12 9:37:21 PM#26

The problem with crafting these days is that the whole mmothink is that group activities produce good items and solo activities produce awful items.  Hence they see crafting as a solo one-off activity and hence crafting tends to make items that are not as good as "camp this monster" will get you.  At best they end up using things like raid drops as components.  But that is more an augmentation system than a crafting system.

In my opinion you will not see the next jump in crafting until you see GROUP crafting.  Have a dynamic system where you have multiple crafters working together co-operatively where any one of them can mess up the item and you will see items worth crafting.

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3335

Poacher killer.

11/26/12 9:51:36 PM#27
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by nariusseldon

I don't think it is resource well spent to make complex crafting in a combat centric game, and many MMOs are combat centric.

There are crafting focus games like Tales of the Desert.

EVE does it so well though. They have created the perfect environment for a symbiotic relationship between PVPers and PVEers. It is a great example of resources well spent.

So sorry, but I don't buy it. I know first hand that you are wrong.

Combat could always be better if it was the sole focus. Remember that. Jack of all trades is a master of none.

Fair enough. EVE's combat could certainly be more "hands on exciting" if you will.

A very in depth and informative review I read in '05 regarding EVE's combat explained it as being less the Han Solo type of flavour, and more the Captain Picard route. Sure, I would definitely prefer a more cockpit'ish type of combat (did I just say that, lol), but the bridge'ish setup (for me) is almost as satisfying.

"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  Draron

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/11
Posts: 1009

11/26/12 10:02:22 PM#28

When I think of complex crafting, EVE isn't one of the games that comes to mind. It's pretty much just like the usual themepark crafting system - find an installment that's open, put in the ingredients and wait it out. Unless you mean complex = useful or complex = plugging in a lot of numbers, then I'd agree with it.

Complex crafting to me is like SWG or even EQ2/FFXIV as it's more than just the typical throw in items and hit a button to make the items.

But like others have said, there's for sure going to be more games that have in depth crafting. I'd say a good portion of games on the horizon has some form of it.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13821

11/26/12 10:13:40 PM#29
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by Quizzical
...snip

The basic problem with crafting is that a large fraction of players don't like it.  If every time they want better gear, they have to track down a crafter who can make it for them, they're likely to get annoyed, quit, and go play some other game where the best gear comes from mob drops or whatever.

...snip

Wait, are you saying that you actually heard of someone leaving a game because they had to either search an auction house for crafted gear or pay someone for it?

 

Who are these people. Are they the ones telling us mmos are all about teamwork, grouping, and socialization but are ashamed to ask someone to make them something? Is it cleaner from the mob or dungeon boss rather than from a crafter's hand. Are they germaphobes lol

 

I've never heard of one person leaving a game because they had to buy crafted gear. If you don't craft you usually sell harvested materials to crafters and make back the cost of buying anything they sell.

 

Serious as a heart attack here - you really know someone that left a game because they would have had to buy crafted gear? There aren't that many games that even have crafted gear as the high end stuff. I don't fathom this, was the post a joke that passed over me. Sounds like craft-cism to me and I shant be party to it.

If all crafted gear is pretty trivial to buy off the auction house, then a game doesn't have much of a crafting system, so of course that's not going to inconvenience anyone--except, of course, for crafters who are looking for something substantial.  Hence the title of this thread.

None of the games I've played that had a substantial crafting system (A Tale in the Desert, Puzzle Pirates, and Uncharted Waters Online) even had an auction house.  It's not that an auction house precludes serious crafting or vice versa.  But everything being so easy to craft that it's pretty trivial to buy it off of someone else sure does.

  Inktomi

Highlighted Blogger

Joined: 3/25/09
Posts: 665

Give me sparkly, twinkly...

11/26/12 10:21:08 PM#30

I played Mortal Online and the crafting system was really intense. The time, effort and risk it took just to make some steel was pretty intense. Steel is one of the more popular ingredients for weapons. When the weapons were made you really didn't know the stats shown, you would have to "test" the weapon for damage. Finding the right recipe for bows was sought after and coveted by guilds. I remember having to sit in front of a buddy and have him shoot arrows at me to see how much damage I took. 

Too bad the game is cabbage.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3565

11/27/12 3:09:13 AM#31
     I honestly doubt we'll see another game with crafting detailed and challenging..  EQ2's was fun, as was SWG.. Both were steps in the right direction, however both had some major mistakes as well..  From where I sit, more and more of this MMO genre just wants simple arcade hack and slash, and couldn't care less about fishing, cooking and crafting of any serious level..  As with another thread, a complex or serious crafting profession is more in line with creating a WORLD, not a game..  The content locus seem to prefer games moreso then worlds.. In fact, if done right, a solid mmorpg would be almost almost impossible for a locus to devour, because the world would be everchanging.. :)  
  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5557

11/27/12 3:28:29 AM#32
i hope we'll see another game with crafting that has the depth and complexity that SWG Pre-NGE had, but i doubt we'll see it for quite a while, as i don't see any games even in development at the moment, that will have anything even close to that level of crafting. The chances are that a none sandbox game couldnt really support the game mechanics needed for it. As for the complexity of Eve's crafting, not the same, Eves crafting has depth, but not really any degree of complexity, but even that is probably far more complex and involved than any of the various Themepark games out there.
  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4919

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/27/12 3:30:36 AM#33

Atitd is just as complicated.  I think Istaria's is better (too bad we can't decorate houses).

Complex crafting was never an important thing in this industry, just a few games ever had it.  I expect it will remain that way in the future.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20681

11/27/12 3:46:27 PM#34
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by nariusseldon

I don't think it is resource well spent to make complex crafting in a combat centric game, and many MMOs are combat centric.

There are crafting focus games like Tales of the Desert.

EVE does it so well though. They have created the perfect environment for a symbiotic relationship between PVPers and PVEers. It is a great example of resources well spent.

So sorry, but I don't buy it. I know first hand that you are wrong.

Combat could always be better if it was the sole focus. Remember that. Jack of all trades is a master of none.

Yeh .. Eve has pretty boring combat. I play the trial for 21 days. Even STO is much better. I literally just sit there and let my ship go into range automatically and keep firing missiles .. instant win (pve missions). There is zero challenge, and no use of interesting skills.

That is the primary reason i don't play Eve. Boring combat.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4919

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/27/12 5:12:23 PM#35
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by Quizzical
...snip

The basic problem with crafting is that a large fraction of players don't like it.  If every time they want better gear, they have to track down a crafter who can make it for them, they're likely to get annoyed, quit, and go play some other game where the best gear comes from mob drops or whatever.

...snip

Wait, are you saying that you actually heard of someone leaving a game because they had to either search an auction house for crafted gear or pay someone for it?

 

Who are these people. Are they the ones telling us mmos are all about teamwork, grouping, and socialization but are ashamed to ask someone to make them something? Is it cleaner from the mob or dungeon boss rather than from a crafter's hand. Are they germaphobes lol

 

I've never heard of one person leaving a game because they had to buy crafted gear. If you don't craft you usually sell harvested materials to crafters and make back the cost of buying anything they sell.

 

Serious as a heart attack here - you really know someone that left a game because they would have had to buy crafted gear? There aren't that many games that even have crafted gear as the high end stuff. I don't fathom this, was the post a joke that passed over me. Sounds like craft-cism to me and I shant be party to it.

If all crafted gear is pretty trivial to buy off the auction house, then a game doesn't have much of a crafting system, so of course that's not going to inconvenience anyone--except, of course, for crafters who are looking for something substantial.  Hence the title of this thread.

None of the games I've played that had a substantial crafting system (A Tale in the Desert, Puzzle Pirates, and Uncharted Waters Online) even had an auction house.  It's not that an auction house precludes serious crafting or vice versa.  But everything being so easy to craft that it's pretty trivial to buy it off of someone else sure does.

:@green, that was a major complaint about Istaria (then horizons, one of many) when it first came out.  Adventurers were bored out of their skull.

Yes they could go and kill the ghost dragons, and golems and whatever but why?  For what? What was their reward?  There was not dropped loot, or coin, just crafting materials.  It was a super pain to find a crafter that was willing to make it, negotiate a price, wait for him to make it, meet up with again to get it.  Sometimes that took days to do.

No, just dropped crafting materials is IMO a very bad way to do it.  You need something for the adventures. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

11/27/12 7:06:32 PM#36
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Quirhid

That is the primary reason i don't play Eve. Boring combat.

Ditto.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Theocritus

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3627

11/27/12 7:37:33 PM#37
Originally posted by Arcondo87
play Salem its plent complex....20 ore will yeld u 1 ingot, 2 IF your lucky. Skills are time consuming to lvl and certain things r difficult to build. Best sandbox i ever played

       We probably need to define what is complex and what is tedious.....Gathering endless amounts of ore to do simple crafting isnt complex.....Complex probably borders more on players making things without recipes and experimenting with things they find in the game.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2552

World > Quest Progression

11/27/12 7:51:45 PM#38
I hope so as it adds a nice layer of depth to a game. One click crafting may work for some games but I really have no interest in it and find it a cop-out. Why have crafting at all then? Oh because it adds something more to do? Exactly, so making the crafting more in depth goes even farther IMO. I can't see a downside.
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2552

World > Quest Progression

11/27/12 7:52:24 PM#39
<Double post phone fail>
  free2play

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1832

11/27/12 11:43:27 PM#40

EVE is not crafting, it's manufacturing. It suits EVE and is about production, not creation but it is not crafting.

FF14 has a crafting system that could become SWG level but it needs TLC. Well over half the classes in FF14 are crafting or gathering devoted and each class is unique, even if the way you level it isn't. Gathering in FF14 needs work, the RnG system for getting basic stuff like logs is frustrating. Add to that they don't have the stat dynamics and have even dumbed it down from the launch version, taking out +2 and +3 finds. It would need a development cycle or two to get it polished and add that sense of variet to individual items, the way SWG did but if there was a system out there already in play, FF14 has it.

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