Originally posted by nate1980

...how would you of done it? ...

I was and I'm more then happy with swtor and its model. It is only game (ok, love also wow and rift) that would gladly pay even double current ammount.

Originally posted by aesperus

The whole point of making a game Free to play (F2P) is to allow people to try out a game before putting money forward. To then turn around than then lock all ability to play the game behind either a subscription, or nickel & dime cash unlocks completely defeats the purpose of having a F2P model to begin.

We get it, it's star wars, but it's time to get real. SWTOR wouldn't go F2P if the game was already making enough money already. The fact that it is F2P now, and that they then restricted almost their entire game from F2P users is laughable. It's easily one of, if not the worst implementation of the F2P business model ever done. If it wasn't star wars, and it was say TF2, or Skyrim, would you play it if you had to pay to unlock every aspect of the UI, or the ability to actually hold onto any of the random crap you find, or to actually play the game for more than a few mins - 1 hour at a time? I know I wouldn't.

It's not f2p, it's just a extended trial.

What they are basically saying is:

"hey all, we screwed up, we are losing customers fast so we can go on like this and close within 12 months or we dangle a carrot in the face and hope some will bite."

Originally posted by Kabaal
It doesn't matter how it's defended, EA's version of F2P is abysmal when compared to the F2P models in pretty much every other game out there. You say people don't have the right to complain, since when did people lose the right to voice opinions on open forums?

lol give me one model of your f2p that doesnot do that .all of them in one way or other do it . 

Originally posted by lotaparty

Originally posted by Kabaal
It doesn't matter how it's defended, EA's version of F2P is abysmal when compared to the F2P models in pretty much every other game out there. You say people don't have the right to complain, since when did people lose the right to voice opinions on open forums?

lol give me one model of your f2p that doesnot do that .all of them in one way or other do it . 

Aion?

DDO?

Originally posted by lotaparty

Originally posted by Kabaal
It doesn't matter how it's defended, EA's version of F2P is abysmal when compared to the F2P models in pretty much every other game out there. You say people don't have the right to complain, since when did people lose the right to voice opinions on open forums?

lol give me one model of your f2p that doesnot do that .all of them in one way or other do it . 

Name one other game that charges for UI elements, hide helmet(because of terible helmet design) and show surname.

Originally posted by ThumbtackJ

Aion?

DDO?

LOTRO

L2

Originally posted by Chieftan
I'd say just copy GW2's model but that game's sinking like a turd.  NVM!

SWTOR can't follow GW2's model.

GW2 was designed as B2P getting its revenue - fundamentally - from box sales; like GW1; the cash shop is icing on the cake. And because there was never any plan to have a subscription people were not put off buying it and will continue to buy it going forward.

And like GW1 there will be xpacs bringing in more money - think of a $30 xpac every 6 months as a $5 / month sub!

Saying GW2 is sinking like a turd is like saying KOTR has sunk; or Skyrim or GTA have flopped because no one plays them anymore. Meaningless. 

And somewhat sadly EA have a product that uses GW2's model to even better effect: The Sims. Expansion pack follows stuff packs follow expansion packs. And EA don't even have the expense of maintaining servers! 

If EA had opted to release SWTOR as the next KOTR with no sub - as many wanted - followed by paid for DLC ( story packs / operations / missions / fluff / whatever)... well who knows. 

Originally posted by gervaise1

Originally posted by Chieftan
I'd say just copy GW2's model but that game's sinking like a turd.  NVM!

SWTOR can't follow GW2's model.

GW2 was designed as B2P getting its revenue - fundamentally - from box sales; like GW1; the cash shop is icing on the cake. And because there was never any plan to have a subscription people were not put off buying it and will continue to buy it going forward.

And like GW1 there will be xpacs bringing in more money - think of a $30 xpac every 6 months as a $5 / month sub!

Saying GW2 is sinking like a turd is like saying KOTR has sunk; or Skyrim or GTA have flopped because no one plays them anymore. Meaningless. 

 

And somewhat sadly EA have a product that uses GW2's model to even better effect: The Sims. Expansion pack follows stuff packs follow expansion packs. And EA don't even have the expense of maintaining servers! 

If EA had opted to release SWTOR as the next KOTR with no sub - as many wanted - followed by paid for DLC ( story packs / operations / missions / fluff / whatever)... well who knows. 

 

Just to note there are servers that are maintained with the Sims 3. Trade / communications servers, as well as patching and end user log ins. Those things have an upkeep. 

The Sims is a decent game tho', SWTOR isn't.

The whole point for them to make swtor F2P so restrictive is that EA wants this game to die.   With them doing this, it will kill the game off sooner and they can get out of the money they owe for license's and what not. 

This way they do not have to wait 5 years for it to die when they can kill it off in less than 1 year and not have to deal with everything that has to do with this lump of  $@%#  they made.  

Originally posted by dotdotdash

Originally posted by eddieg50

Originally posted by Dkompoze
You cant cry over any kind of FTP in any game. I mean you could just pay the sub and quit being cheap. Then your tears would be moot. Just saying.

Agreed, most F2P are just glorified trials to see if you like the game, Aion is prob the most fair F2P but most of the rest will cost you money especially if you are hard core.  F2P has been around for a long time now, most people seem to be clueless, I guess it is just a good excuse for some people to complain

This is either a lie, or you have not played many F2P games.

I played Runes of Magic from level 0 to cap without paying a dime. I could then carry on playing without having to spend a dime. Granted, my experience would have been enhanced - and in some respects made easier - by paying for certain components every now and then, but... I didn't have to, so I didn't.

In Star Trek Online, I played from level 0 to cap without spending a penny. I then spent £50 ($75) on the game, and haven't spent a penny since. Again, my experience would certainly be enhanced by DOFF spam, as well as buying more ships... but I don't have to, and I can still enjoy the game. More importantly... I enjoy the game thoroughly and it doesn't cost me as much as a sub game.

It's dishonest to try to misconstrue the model by saying that "most f2p games are just glorified trials" because this isn't true. SWTOR F2P is a glorified trial, but it is the exception... and certainly not the rule. "MOST" free to play games actually have a reasonable "FREE" way of playing the game; that's the entire point of the model.

I hope you now appreciate the irony of you calling other people "clueless".

My, My you sound a bit clueless today (no offense). The fact that i seem to hit a nerve with you means you are taking it personally, which means I am probably right, and you feel the need to defend yourself because who wants to be known as clueless.

    Now that we have clueless out of the way, let us talk about Runes of Magic.  I  could be wrong but was not Runes a F2P game to begin with?  I have been to the Runes forums and many, many people would disagree with you and outright call the game P2W.   I did play the game for a few hours and between the sophomoric graphics and the outright rip off of WOW I can see why they are a F2P-BECAUSE NO ONE WOULD PLAY THE GAME OTHERWISE.

This is a post from the STO forums

     "Vesta ships pack.= Overpriced.
All projects,personal,starbase and embassy.=Extremely Expensive.
Cost of projects then buying items after projects are done. Totally not fair.
The dilithium allowances are far too small,and we are forced to buy it,to get anywhere in this game.This is despite STO being a free game,so we are told.
Free game???? I think not.
It seems to me that the costs involved are getting worse,and it does not matter if a fleet is big or small. The prices generally are far too high.
I hope that Dan Stahl and Mr Branflakes themselves see this,and i hope they realise,that STO will lose people,as they will be priced out of this game.

This whole fleet idea was a big mistake,sadly there are many in fleets who don't bother contributing,and they sit back and do nothing most of the time,while others end up carrying them so to speak.
Personally if it were ever possible,i would run a fleet with just myself and duty officers as fleet staff. end result is more efficient progress and no arguements with other players in this game,about who contributes what and general costs etc"

    Now to be fair I think this person was going overrboard but as you can see STO is not "free to play" either.  I did say most games were glorified trials, not all, Aion and you could make a case for fallen earth being a "better" F2P model. As I said in another post, the experience penalty in TOR is unfair as it could throw off the balance of the game but the rest is typical F2P bs. What these companies should really call it is Piecemeal to play because most of these games are simply not free to play!

Originally posted by eddieg50

Originally posted by dotdotdash

Originally posted by eddieg50

Originally posted by Dkompoze
You cant cry over any kind of FTP in any game. I mean you could just pay the sub and quit being cheap. Then your tears would be moot. Just saying.

Agreed, most F2P are just glorified trials to see if you like the game, Aion is prob the most fair F2P but most of the rest will cost you money especially if you are hard core.  F2P has been around for a long time now, most people seem to be clueless, I guess it is just a good excuse for some people to complain

This is either a lie, or you have not played many F2P games.

I played Runes of Magic from level 0 to cap without paying a dime. I could then carry on playing without having to spend a dime. Granted, my experience would have been enhanced - and in some respects made easier - by paying for certain components every now and then, but... I didn't have to, so I didn't.

In Star Trek Online, I played from level 0 to cap without spending a penny. I then spent £50 ($75) on the game, and haven't spent a penny since. Again, my experience would certainly be enhanced by DOFF spam, as well as buying more ships... but I don't have to, and I can still enjoy the game. More importantly... I enjoy the game thoroughly and it doesn't cost me as much as a sub game.

It's dishonest to try to misconstrue the model by saying that "most f2p games are just glorified trials" because this isn't true. SWTOR F2P is a glorified trial, but it is the exception... and certainly not the rule. "MOST" free to play games actually have a reasonable "FREE" way of playing the game; that's the entire point of the model.

I hope you now appreciate the irony of you calling other people "clueless".

My, My you sound a bit clueless today (no offense). The fact that i seem to hit a nerve with you means you are taking it personally, which means I am probably right, and you feel the need to defend yourself because who wants to be known as clueless.

    Now that we have clueless out of the way, let us talk about Runes of Magic.  I  could be wrong but was not Runes a F2P game to begin with?  I have been to the Runes forums and many, many people would disagree with you and outright call the game P2W.   I did play the game for a few hours and between the sophomoric graphics and the outright rip off of WOW I can see why they are a F2P-BECAUSE NO ONE WOULD PLAY THE GAME OTHERWISE.

 

This is a post from the STO forums

     "Vesta ships pack.= Overpriced.
All projects,personal,starbase and embassy.=Extremely Expensive.
Cost of projects then buying items after projects are done. Totally not fair.
The dilithium allowances are far too small,and we are forced to buy it,to get anywhere in this game.This is despite STO being a free game,so we are told.
Free game???? I think not.
It seems to me that the costs involved are getting worse,and it does not matter if a fleet is big or small. The prices generally are far too high.
I hope that Dan Stahl and Mr Branflakes themselves see this,and i hope they realise,that STO will lose people,as they will be priced out of this game.

This whole fleet idea was a big mistake,sadly there are many in fleets who don't bother contributing,and they sit back and do nothing most of the time,while others end up carrying them so to speak.
Personally if it were ever possible,i would run a fleet with just myself and duty officers as fleet staff. end result is more efficient progress and no arguements with other players in this game,about who contributes what and general costs etc"

    Now to be fair I think this person was going overrboard but as you can see STO is not "free to play" either.  I did say most games were glorified trials, not all, Aion and you could make a case for fallen earth being a "better" F2P model. As I said in another post, the experience penalty in TOR is unfair as it could throw off the balance of the game but the rest is typical F2P bs. What these companies should really call it is Piecemeal to play because most of these games are simply not free to play!

 

STO IS F2P. You can play through all of the content, and get access to all of the items the game has to offer (including the items on the cash store, and the items that are provided through personal and fleet projects) FOR FREE! ;D

The Fleet Projects system - with starbases, etc - is dependant on you having a good fleet. It's no different to having to have a good raid group to clear content in WoW. If you don't have a good raid group, you don't clear the content. What do you do in that situation? YOU FIND ANOTHER RAID GROUP! ;D The same state of affairs exists in STO. If your fleet isn't progressing through said projects with any haste, if people aren't contributing, YOU FIND ANOTHER FLEET ;D

The fleet I am in, for example, GIVES SHIPS AWAY to people who've been in for more than 3 months! These are ships from the cash shop, ships that would usually cost $40+! For FREE! Why? Because the people in the fleet are working together often enough that we're running at a huge surplus, and can afford to reward our members for their efforts.

Originally posted by Chieftan

Originally posted by tiefighter25

Originally posted by Chieftan
I'd say just copy GW2's model but that game's sinking like a turd.  NVM!

Yeah. They are losing all that monthly subscriber money!

Did you really just come back with that?  Maybe you can explain how Anet can afford to host servers without income.

Same way they managed with GW1? With box sales and expansion sales?

---

Originally posted by mikahr
Fail is fail, SWTOR IS NOT F2P, its a crappy generic free trial.

---

Are you unable to play the game because there are only 2 quickbars? Are you unable to play the game because your ugly helmet cannot be hidden? Are you unable to play the game because your bank slots are full? Are you unable to play the game because your preferred race is not one of the free ones? I am not saying "unplayable for you", I am saying "unplayable for free." I have a feeling that you could still log in and play even with these restrictions. It may not be "enjoyable", which is the real point here, but it is playable for free. Just because the game may not have for free what *you* expect for free does not mean the game is not free to play. You can still play the game for free.

EA just does not make the game enjoyable to play for free. And they have hosed those players who subscribed for ANY amount time not prior to their going F2P. How are those collector's editions doing now for the F2P people?

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 

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Originally posted by mikahr
Fail is fail, SWTOR IS NOT F2P, its a crappy generic free trial.

---

I don't know about you, but I can play the game for free from 1-50 (I think) and have a complete storyline experience.

 

Are you unable to play the game because there are only 2 quickbars? Are you unable to play the game because your ugly helmet cannot be hidden? Are you unable to play the game because your bank slots are full? Are you unable to play the game because your preferred race is not one of the free ones? I am not saying "unplayable for you", I am saying "unplayable for free." I have a feeling that you could still log in and play even with these restrictions. It may not be "enjoyable", which is the real point here, but it is playable for free. Just because the game may not have for free what *you* expect for free does not mean the game is not free to play. You can still play the game for free.

EA just does not make the game enjoyable to play for free. And they have hosed those players who subscribed for ANY amount time not prior to their going F2P. How are those collector's editions doing now for the F2P people?

Maybe not "unable", but who the hell wants to play a game that restricts you so much that the fun is gone, and everything just annoys you?

Iirc, SOE (Smed?) said something similar to this:

If a F2P model is too restrictive, it will not even attract many players, and those who checks it out, will quickly leave. And if you cannot attract players, and make them stay, they surely won't pay anything.

This is why this game will fail a second time, because as you said: EA just does not make the game enjoyable to play for free. This is one of the most hated F2P models in history, proven by the discussions on both this site and countless other forums, and EA / BW will feel the consequences, I'm sure of it.

Btw, there are things you can NOT do in the free version, so yes, "unplayble for free" is partially correct. If you prefer some contents over other, that is either impossible or very restricted for free players.

---

Originally posted by Netspook

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Originally posted by AlBQuirky  

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Originally posted by mikahr Fail is fail, SWTOR IS NOT F2P, its a crappy generic free trial.

---

I don't know about you, but I can play the game for free from 1-50 (I think) and have a complete storyline experience.   Are you unable to play the game because there are only 2 quickbars? Are you unable to play the game because your ugly helmet cannot be hidden? Are you unable to play the game because your bank slots are full? Are you unable to play the game because your preferred race is not one of the free ones? I am not saying "unplayable for you", I am saying "unplayable for free." I have a feeling that you could still log in and play even with these restrictions. It may not be "enjoyable", which is the real point here, but it is playable for free. Just because the game may not have for free what *you* expect for free does not mean the game is not free to play. You can still play the game for free. EA just does not make the game enjoyable to play for free. And they have hosed those players who subscribed for ANY amount time not prior to their going F2P. How are those collector's editions doing now for the F2P people?

---

 

Maybe not "unable", but who the hell wants to play a game that restricts you so much that the fun is gone, and everything just annoys you?

Iirc, SOE (Smed?) said something similar to this:

If a F2P model is too restrictive, it will not even attract many players, and those who checks it out, will quickly leave. And if you cannot attract players, and make them stay, they surely won't pay anything.

This is why this game will fail a second time, because as you said: EA just does not make the game enjoyable to play for free. This is one of the most hated F2P models in history, proven by the discussions on both this site and countless other forums, and EA / BW will feel the consequences, I'm sure of it.

Btw, there are things you can NOT do in the free version, so yes, "unplayble for free" is partially correct. If you prefer some contents over other, that is either impossible or very restricted for free players.

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Originally posted by Hazelle

Your chart proves his point.

It was launched and it ramped up in the first month or so and then dropped.

No it wasn't.... you weren't reading the chart right.

Those are not month scales. They are year scales mate.

The game was out in 2003, the subscribership didn't significantly drop until end of 2004.passed, between 2003 and end of 2004 is was stagnating at around 300k. Also you forgot to correlate the big dips with the launch of WoW as well (end of 2004/start of 2005).

Lastly, 300k subs back in 2003 was not "terrible". 300k sub for an mmo back in 2003 is massive, considering how many people in the world at the time has a proper gaming rig and as well as a proper DSL to play an MMO.

When WoW first launched back in 2004/start of 2005 it didn't have 1 million subscribers right of the bat. It took a long time, the death of other mmos and the prevalence of ADSL connections outside of USA to build it up.

Originally posted by gervaise1

Originally posted by Chieftan
I'd say just copy GW2's model but that game's sinking like a turd.  NVM!

SWTOR can't follow GW2's model.

GW2 was designed as B2P getting its revenue - fundamentally - from box sales; like GW1; the cash shop is icing on the cake. And because there was never any plan to have a subscription people were not put off buying it and will continue to buy it going forward.

Well GW2's sales rank on Amazon's PC games chart is #32 right now.  I hope there's ALOT of icing on that cake.

Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

Originally posted by Hazelle

Your chart proves his point.

It was launched and it ramped up in the first month or so and then dropped.

No it wasn't.... you weren't reading the chart right.

 

Those are not month scales. They are year scales mate.

 

The game was out in 2003, the subscribership didn't significantly drop until end of 2004.passed, between 2003 and end of 2004 is was stagnating at around 300k. Also you forgot to correlate the big dips with the launch of WoW as well (end of 2004/start of 2005).

 

Lastly, 300k subs back in 2003 was not "terrible". 300k sub for an mmo back in 2003 is massive, considering how many people in the world at the time has a proper gaming rig and as well as a proper DSL to play an MMO.

 

When WoW first launched back in 2004/start of 2005 it didn't have 1 million subscribers right of the bat. It took a long time, the death of other mmos and the prevalence of ADSL connections outside of USA to build it up.

But also WoW began dying around the time Activision got involved (2009), when WoW became "dumbed" down and more focused on casuals.  Cash shops went in, game had less atmosphere, customers went down.

Throwing that in because I think it's relevent to what you said.  SWTOR didn't copy the "good" model" from WoW that was increasing subscribers.  They copied the "bad" model, which drove gamers away.

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Originally posted by stefanakisgr
F2P is supposed to be a gateway , a way to lure you into playing . When its so frustrating to play who will stay ? Bags , money , races is acceptable , also high end items .  I would have gone with an xp penalty as well , light at low lvls , high as you approach end lvl . That would work well to fill all lvl ranges , and make it easy for my subscribers to get flashpoint groups . But UI and run restrictions ? These turn people away before they get to know the game , or more importantly before they come back to the game .

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It is very difficult to say what lure or turn people off. Your individual personal bias or preference might be vastly different from average or majority of players.

They can always adjust the restrictions and it is better to start with something more strict and loosen it later than the other way round.

Originally posted by Gdemami

It is very difficult to say what lure or turn people off. Your individual personal bias or preference might be vastly different from average or majority of players.

They can always adjust the restrictions and it is better to start with something more strict and loosen it later than the other way round.

Its not very difficult with SWTOR. Its very easy.

And you saying that - its like saying "oh, but it doesnt matter that it SUCKS NOW, they can always fix it AFTER LAUNCH"

Yeah, well, that turned up nicely rofl they "fixed" it alright

They miss and miss and miss....and all those misses will cost them dearly in the end.