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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » More EA hate this time from a MoH forum moderator

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35 posts found
  Senden

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/16/05
Posts: 589

 
OP  11/25/12 4:40:35 PM#1

http://battlelog.medalofhonor.com/mohw/forum/threadview/2832654490060478008/?websso=1

This was written by a moderator over at the official MoH forums. While it's somewhat off topic and despite it being about a completely different genre, the amount of things written in that which can be related to SWTOR is just sad. SWTOR was rushed through the door so it didn't compete with Diablo 3 especially but with GW2 and MoP looming along the horizon, I'm sure that played a part too. 

s3nd3n Xfire Miniprofile
  Wickedjelly

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

11/26/12 6:40:35 AM#2
Originally posted by Senden

http://battlelog.medalofhonor.com/mohw/forum/threadview/2832654490060478008/?websso=1

This was written by a moderator over at the official MoH forums. While it's somewhat off topic and despite it being about a completely different genre, the amount of things written in that which can be related to SWTOR is just sad. SWTOR was rushed through the door so it didn't compete with Diablo 3 especially but with GW2 and MoP looming along the horizon, I'm sure that played a part too. 

I don't think it was rushed. What I do think is they horribly misjudged what aspects were needed and important for the game to have longevity and significant subscription sustainability.

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  superniceguy

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2278

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

11/26/12 8:03:08 AM#3
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Senden

http://battlelog.medalofhonor.com/mohw/forum/threadview/2832654490060478008/?websso=1

This was written by a moderator over at the official MoH forums. While it's somewhat off topic and despite it being about a completely different genre, the amount of things written in that which can be related to SWTOR is just sad. SWTOR was rushed through the door so it didn't compete with Diablo 3 especially but with GW2 and MoP looming along the horizon, I'm sure that played a part too. 

I don't think it was rushed. What I do think is they horribly misjudged what aspects were needed and important for the game to have longevity and significant subscription sustainability.

It was rushed as this article explains:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/08/behind-the-scenes-of-star-wars-the-old-republic-throwing-people-at-the-problem/

"During the last six months of development, the team began a difficult triage process; where features that weren’t going to make it for launch were cut. All development heads were summoned to daily meetings at what Dallas dubbed ‘The Death Star’ – with each team being coached on what to cut, and what to keep. “Some developers cried,” explained Dallas. “I didn’t enjoy that.”"

Things were cut out within the last six months. If they had delayed the game, these things could have stayed in

Considering that "some developers cried" seems as though that content got cut permanently, and had no intentions of being added later

The amount of time needed to create a game is proportionate to the size of the game. The game was just too big for EAs relase window. Bioware are known for taking their time over their games, and the quality shows as a result, but with EA, Bioware did not have the luxury of time like they are used to with this.

  superniceguy

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2278

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

11/26/12 8:28:43 AM#4

I reckon it would have been OK if Dallas Dickinson did not get involved - she has no clue

She is the one who reckoned people wanted to play a hero and not be "Uncle Owen", which brought in the 9 iconic proffesions down from the customisable 32, for SWG

She was not with the SWTOR from the beginning, she came in mid way.

Now here she is cutting down SWTOR, except this time we never will know what the game would have been like. SWTOR is like SWG being released in Nov 2005, instead of June 2003, where we would not know any different and there never being a pre-NGE.

  DeniZg

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/29/12
Posts: 586

11/26/12 9:28:35 AM#5
Originally posted by Scorchien

[mod edit]

This.

I could never understand the hate for EA when it comes to SWTOR development. Bioware was given loads of cash, the amounts never given to anyone before, to make one MMORPG to rule them all. We know how it turned out.

If some super fun features were cut out six months before launch, where are those features now, almost a year after release?

 

  Stuka1000

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/20/03
Posts: 812

11/26/12 9:35:47 AM#6
The problem with ToR was not that it was rushed out the door.  It was the number of yes men around the design table at it's conception, none of which had the balls to question any of the initial design decisions.  All it would have taken is for one person with influence to be a little more assertive and forward thinking and say something like ' sure, themeparks are pretty popular now but what about in 6 years time when we are ready to release and the gaming community are getting sick of that formulae?'.  Instead we got space WoW and the title got what it deserved.
  superniceguy

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2278

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

11/26/12 9:42:46 AM#7
Originally posted by eric1000
The problem with ToR was not that it was rushed out the door.  It was the number of yes men around the design table at it's conception, none of which had the balls to question any of the initial design decisions.  All it would have taken is for one person with influence to be a little more assertive and forward thinking and say something like ' sure, themeparks are pretty popular now but what about in 6 years time when we are ready to release and the gaming community are getting sick of that formulae?'.  Instead we got space WoW and the title got what it deserved.

The game was still rushed, they wanted to get it out before MOP, GW2 and Diablo 3, hence a lot of the game got chopped down to make a viable game for release but I agree with the rest what you say. It was all of it - It was rushed and what you said

  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1315

11/26/12 10:48:35 AM#8
Originally posted by Wickedjelly

I don't think it was rushed. What I do think is they horribly misjudged what aspects were needed and important for the game to have longevity and significant subscription sustainability.

 

I belonged to the SWTOR forums since day 1. I have an Oct. 08 forum account. I watched, posted, and read all the way until launch. Each day would produce countless threads on the importance social features, e.g., exploration, crafting, ability to be yourself, gigantic worlds, etc.

The developers literally paid no mind to any of it. People weren't asking for SWG 2.0. They were asking for a deep Star Wars MMO.

Everything about SWTOR is simply terrible. In fact, it makes the entire Star Wars franchise look cheap (not that is wasn't already). It was a complete waste of time and an embarrassment to the MMO genre.

 

The last thing I want is another WoW. SWTOR didn't even do that. It gave us a console game with optional co-op.

  rojoArcueid

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5803

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

11/26/12 10:53:10 AM#9
Originally posted by Senden

http://battlelog.medalofhonor.com/mohw/forum/threadview/2832654490060478008/?websso=1

This was written by a moderator over at the official MoH forums. While it's somewhat off topic and despite it being about a completely different genre, the amount of things written in that which can be related to SWTOR is just sad. SWTOR was rushed through the door so it didn't compete with Diablo 3 especially but with GW2 and MoP looming along the horizon, I'm sure that played a part too. 

if the MoH moderator said this, i hope he realises that MoH:W was waaaaaaay more rushed than Swtor. Swtor might be messy but MoH is ugh!!!!!!

  Slampig

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2404

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

11/26/12 10:56:16 AM#10
Originally posted by DeniZg
Originally posted by Scorchien

[mod edit]

This.

I could never understand the hate for EA when it comes to SWTOR development. Bioware was given loads of cash, the amounts never given to anyone before, to make one MMORPG to rule them all. We know how it turned out.

If some super fun features were cut out six months before launch, where are those features now, almost a year after release?

 

How do you know they were even super fun?

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  olepi

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/07
Posts: 1072

11/26/12 11:04:20 AM#11

SWTOR reminds of the time when our company spent hundreds of millions on a satellite phone. Worked for years on it, and finally some VP said: "It's THIS BIG? It weighs FIVE POUNDS?? AND IT DOESN"T WORK INDOORS???"

The project was cancelled. But not until after spending (we estimated) $800 MILLION.

SWTOR is like that, except no VP ever said anything, and it wasn't cancelled.

------------
RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  dotdotdash

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/01/11
Posts: 355

11/26/12 11:10:36 AM#12
Originally posted by mmoDAD

I belonged to the SWTOR forums since day 1. I have an Oct. 08 forum account. I watched, posted, and read all the way until launch. Each day would produce countless threads on the importance social features, e.g., exploration, crafting, ability to be yourself, gigantic worlds, etc.

The developers literally paid no mind to any of it. People weren't asking for SWG 2.0. They were asking for a deep Star Wars MMO.

Everything about SWTOR is simply terrible. In fact, it makes the entire Star Wars franchise look cheap (not that is wasn't already). It was a complete waste of time and an embarrassment to the MMO genre.

 

The last thing I want is another WoW. SWTOR didn't even do that. It gave us a console game with optional co-op.

I was also a member of the SWTOR boards from the beginning - and was the leader of one of the more well known communities on the site.

Fans and critics alike would share a whole wealth of desires for the game, feature ideas and requests, and offered valuable talking points on Bioware's approach to the MMO genre. The general consensus was clear: yes, we wanted an MMO (warts and all), but no one - not even the WoW fans - wanted World of Warcraft with Star Wars clothes on (which is what we ended up getting). There were lengthy discussions on this particular topic; Bioware claimed they were listening intently to what we had to say. I suppose at that point they were too far past the pale to do anything about it, but it should be clear now that the game they were making (and have made), and the game that consumers wanted were two very different entities.

The closed beta test was a farce. There were several loud voices in the beta community - myself included - that realised very early on what was happening internally, and what impact that would have on the game. When we got into beta we were promised a wealth of new features over the course of testing that would move the game beyond the rut it had seemingly dug itself, yet what ended up happening was an endless cycle of bug fixing with no new features making it to the test at all. I got removed from the CB for voicing my concerns, and a couple of the more vocal critics also got removed for creating talking points on the problems with SWTOR.

The fact that the community is so toxic should not be surprised. There exists an atmosphere of poison at Bioware Austin. It has left every developer, designer, artist and producer (even the higher ups) with a bitter taste in their mouths. A lot of those people have been moved around to other Bioware studios, and to other EA studios, and that atmosphere of toxicity is spreading. The comunity itself is a reflection on the lack of cohesion and synergy within the TOR team - and Bioware as a whole. Bioware have never been particularly good at engaging and running large communities for their games, often relying on fans to do that for them, but TOR is the first game I've seen where so many people have been so adversely effected by the vibe from a big studio.

TOR isn't going to be around for much longer, I'm afraid. Bioware won't learn anything from this experience as a studio, because Bioware (the brand) has been reduced to a toxic asset by SWTOR. EA are currently minifying Bioware back down to its original size, based out of Canada, and the rest of the studios and teams given to them with the takeover are likely to be dissolved. Even Mythic have moved away from assosiating themselves with BIoware. It's a real shame, considering they've put out some of the greatest video games ever made.

Not all of the blame can be placed at EAs door. In fact, very little here is EAs fault. Bioware started TOR before EA came in. They had lofty ambitions before EA came in, and only pursued the merger with EA to secure the funding needed to make the game. When it became apparent that Bioware Austin was a mess of mismanagement, along with a poorly envisioned game design, EA had to make the most out of a bad situation. They invested a huge sum of money in Bioware, and Bioware p****d is away. EA aren't making any friends by trying to profiteer off the failure of the team in Austin with the F2P conversion, but we shouldn't expect them to invest yet more money trying to save a sinking ship.

TOR isn't going to be around for much longer, and I wouldn't be surprised if the price Bioware pays is total disolution. I would not be surprised at all.

  spookydom

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/08
Posts: 1807

I'm a lvl 50 Batman!

11/26/12 11:10:37 AM#13
Originally posted by superniceguy

I reckon it would have been OK if Dallas Dickinson did not get involved - she has no clue

She is the one who reckoned people wanted to play a hero and not be "Uncle Owen", which brought in the 9 iconic proffesions down from the customisable 32, for SWG

She was not with the SWTOR from the beginning, she came in mid way.

Now here she is cutting down SWTOR, except this time we never will know what the game would have been like. SWTOR is like SWG being released in Nov 2005, instead of June 2003, where we would not know any different and there never being a pre-NGE.

 Not taking anything away from your points but You know Dallas is a guy right?  :)

  OG_Zorvan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 646

11/26/12 11:54:30 AM#14
Originally posted by spookydom
Originally posted by superniceguy

I reckon it would have been OK if Dallas Dickinson did not get involved - she has no clue

She is the one who reckoned people wanted to play a hero and not be "Uncle Owen", which brought in the 9 iconic proffesions down from the customisable 32, for SWG

She was not with the SWTOR from the beginning, she came in mid way.

Now here she is cutting down SWTOR, except this time we never will know what the game would have been like. SWTOR is like SWG being released in Nov 2005, instead of June 2003, where we would not know any different and there never being a pre-NGE.

 Not taking anything away from your points but You know Dallas is a guy right?  :)

Well, considering Dallas Dickinson has always been a whiny little bitch, it's easy to confuse.

EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  spookydom

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/08
Posts: 1807

I'm a lvl 50 Batman!

11/26/12 11:56:36 AM#15
Originally posted by OG_Zorvan
Originally posted by spookydom
Originally posted by superniceguy

I reckon it would have been OK if Dallas Dickinson did not get involved - she has no clue

She is the one who reckoned people wanted to play a hero and not be "Uncle Owen", which brought in the 9 iconic proffesions down from the customisable 32, for SWG

She was not with the SWTOR from the beginning, she came in mid way.

Now here she is cutting down SWTOR, except this time we never will know what the game would have been like. SWTOR is like SWG being released in Nov 2005, instead of June 2003, where we would not know any different and there never being a pre-NGE.

 Not taking anything away from your points but You know Dallas is a guy right?  :)

Well, considering Dallas Dickinson has always been a whiny little bitch, it's easy to confuse.

True dat! :D    Edit* Actually don't know if he or not, just wanted to sound all street ;)

  Wickedjelly

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

11/26/12 8:45:18 PM#16
Originally posted by mmoDAD
Originally posted by Wickedjelly

I don't think it was rushed. What I do think is they horribly misjudged what aspects were needed and important for the game to have longevity and significant subscription sustainability.

 

I belonged to the SWTOR forums since day 1. I have an Oct. 08 forum account. I watched, posted, and read all the way until launch. Each day would produce countless threads on the importance social features, e.g., exploration, crafting, ability to be yourself, gigantic worlds, etc.

The developers literally paid no mind to any of it. People weren't asking for SWG 2.0. They were asking for a deep Star Wars MMO.

Everything about SWTOR is simply terrible. In fact, it makes the entire Star Wars franchise look cheap (not that is wasn't already). It was a complete waste of time and an embarrassment to the MMO genre.

 

The last thing I want is another WoW. SWTOR didn't even do that. It gave us a console game with optional co-op.

Same here.

It was the reason I stopped going there because it was frustrating and rather evident they were't paying a damn bit of attention to the discussions. Many issues that arose were discussed ad nauseum on that forum long before beta ever began. It was fairly fucking ridiculous.

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  Beanpuie

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/15/07
Posts: 810

11/26/12 9:41:21 PM#17
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by Senden

http://battlelog.medalofhonor.com/mohw/forum/threadview/2832654490060478008/?websso=1

This was written by a moderator over at the official MoH forums. While it's somewhat off topic and despite it being about a completely different genre, the amount of things written in that which can be related to SWTOR is just sad. SWTOR was rushed through the door so it didn't compete with Diablo 3 especially but with GW2 and MoP looming along the horizon, I'm sure that played a part too. 

if the MoH moderator said this, i hope he realises that MoH:W was waaaaaaay more rushed than Swtor. Swtor might be messy but MoH is ugh!!!!!!

I guess in his case,  it takes one to know one.

 

I wasnt at the very beginning of SWTOR,  at that time i was experiencing the final deathkneel of AOC Pvp.

But when i entered Swtor beta, all through several months i couldnt help but see Bioware serve 3 masters and disappoint each one:

1. The WOW overlord of jumping through all those obstacles just to appease, only to then be dropped months later after being used up and discarded. yes that was EA's goal, to cater to that crowd using the Star Wars IP as the cheese with Bioware being the gullible meatshield to go along with it, Yes and again,  catering to such a group they listened to the players, same exact group Bioware didnt listen to,  same exact group that Bioware listened to, implemented some their ideas/feedback, and get crucified for it;  but thats what they wanted, not the players fault.

2. the EA Overlord,  their history speaks for itself, along with the release date for Swtor,lets not forget the conference calls, and their decision of no longer seeing swtor being of any importance. They wanted a instant blockbuster, not a game that they had to hone and sharpen overtime to make better (something Rift has done, and hopefully earned the industry's respect for it). Nope  not EA, you fail one time and off with your head. the Doctors got the hell out of dodge along with a handful of people. for the article of the MOH mod speaking about swtor being a rush product, whatever -- all i know is EA doesnt have a leg to stand on and will be given every criticism that they deserve for years to come.

3. The Bioware Conscious, when i played SWTOR, i saw Biowares soul, the problem however it was occupied and cluttered with elements that tarnished their work of art,  forced factions?,  rigid social features?, large amounts of uneeded features (space combat anyone), wasted budget on short lived decisions? (voice overs, again space combat, llum). when playing Swtor, i enjoyed it, from beginning to end, but i could not ignore the waste that i saw,  the waste in space in particular, so many areas being linear, no real incentive of venturing to cantinas, let alone occupy them,  a game that talks about living and breathing, then turns around to hold your hand and tell you how important it is to go to the next exclaimation point, its a insult to the idea of a world thats alive, and nothing more than a marketing buzzword.

the biggest thing that turns my stomach is the combat.  do i hate the combat? no -- but what does it really offer, other than canned interactive responses of blocking sabers, parrying, and dodging until something dies. The moment you apply movement, esspecially on a pvp scale where movement is everything,  the combat becomes a cluttered mess of swinging attacks, bunny hopping, and spam -- more of the same like any other mmo.

Simply put ,  Biowares style of combat showed its aged, and it has caught up to them , biting them dead in their throats.

 

I placed perhaps a good 7 to 8 months into the game, after that i left and moved on to Planetside 2,  however i look back to SWTOR seeing how far they have gone. Truthfully It makes me sad that the is now the customary punching bag for the cool kids to hit to make themselves sound legit, while there are other mmos that have screwed up far harder than Swtor has ever done  (Age of Conan Dx 10 debacle anyone? - its on the box!).

If any consolation, I didnt believe in the hype unlike many others -- that is perhaps why i stayed with Swtor for so long and got my moneys worth from the game, understanding all its short comings and inevitable downfall. 

  Hyperion5182

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/08
Posts: 67

11/26/12 9:56:06 PM#18
Originally posted by superniceguy
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Senden

http://battlelog.medalofhonor.com/mohw/forum/threadview/2832654490060478008/?websso=1

This was written by a moderator over at the official MoH forums. While it's somewhat off topic and despite it being about a completely different genre, the amount of things written in that which can be related to SWTOR is just sad. SWTOR was rushed through the door so it didn't compete with Diablo 3 especially but with GW2 and MoP looming along the horizon, I'm sure that played a part too. 

I don't think it was rushed. What I do think is they horribly misjudged what aspects were needed and important for the game to have longevity and significant subscription sustainability.

It was rushed as this article explains:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/08/behind-the-scenes-of-star-wars-the-old-republic-throwing-people-at-the-problem/

"During the last six months of development, the team began a difficult triage process; where features that weren’t going to make it for launch were cut. All development heads were summoned to daily meetings at what Dallas dubbed ‘The Death Star’ – with each team being coached on what to cut, and what to keep. “Some developers cried,” explained Dallas. “I didn’t enjoy that.”"

Things were cut out within the last six months. If they had delayed the game, these things could have stayed in

Considering that "some developers cried" seems as though that content got cut permanently, and had no intentions of being added later

The amount of time needed to create a game is proportionate to the size of the game. The game was just too big for EAs relase window. Bioware are known for taking their time over their games, and the quality shows as a result, but with EA, Bioware did not have the luxury of time like they are used to with this.

And EA has been known to disasterously rush things. The sad story here is that they didnt take the warhammer route. But This game died the moment they announced railshooter and i shouldnt have wasted my money.

  User Deleted
11/27/12 12:48:43 AM#19
“Some developers cried,”
I hope they cried hysterically when the game engine was chosen.
  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

11/27/12 2:13:20 AM#20
Originally posted by NBlitz
“Some developers cried,”
I hope they cried hysterically when the game engine was chosen.

Gordon Walton was the Bioware executive who chose the Alpha Hero Engine.

Needless to say, he was also the first of the SWTOR management team (Head of Bioware Austin) that was shown the door. In January of 2012, when after Launch, the game's performance warts (which affected development and game design) began to become apparent and the writting began to appear on the wall. (Lots of people canceling their subs before their free month was even up.)

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