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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why don't you just make SWG (pre cu ) 2 already??

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109 posts found
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9958

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/23/12 3:39:46 PM#81


Originally posted by free2play
Without the SW part.

It's what killed it. SW franchise put unreal expectations on the game.

In truth the things that set SWG apart were feature that can be replicated, like the dynamic resource spwns, Logged out harvesting, solid decay on all crafted items and in the start a pure crafted inventory, the 250 point skill system. Flagged world PvP in a PvE game - making populations balanced over servers and providing PvP that wasn't griefed in to the ground.

An SWG like game could work and very well.




This might actually work. SWG was reportedly a fairly simple game to develop and didn't require a lot of subscribers to make money. I could see this happening.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17961

11/23/12 4:46:14 PM#82
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by free2play
Without the SW part.

 

It's what killed it. SW franchise put unreal expectations on the game.

In truth the things that set SWG apart were feature that can be replicated, like the dynamic resource spwns, Logged out harvesting, solid decay on all crafted items and in the start a pure crafted inventory, the 250 point skill system. Flagged world PvP in a PvE game - making populations balanced over servers and providing PvP that wasn't griefed in to the ground.

An SWG like game could work and very well.




This might actually work. SWG was reportedly a fairly simple game to develop and didn't require a lot of subscribers to make money. I could see this happening.

 

Can't be successful in today's world. Just the graphics upgrade will probably cost a lot. People won't stand for yesterday's technologies.

  free2play

Elite Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1736

11/23/12 6:03:35 PM#83
If they were going to make it without the SW it would need all new graphics anyway. I'm sure there would be some lawyers that would have serious objections to a Bantha or a storm trooper in a non SW game.
  User Deleted
11/23/12 6:09:11 PM#84
Originally posted by free2play
If they were going to make it without the SW it would need all new graphics anyway. I'm sure there would be some lawyers that would have serious objections to a Bantha or a storm trooper in a non SW game.

SOE holds Star Wars clone wars licence so just use that and make it look like Star Wars.

Just like EA did Star Wars game which looks like clone wars ( no idea why did they do that)

 

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4329

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/23/12 6:10:55 PM#85

Was kinda thinking it was a bit of a funny thread.

Why don't you just make swg 2 allready?  Well if we spent the same amount of money (what was it 10-30 million) to make SWG like it was in the past it would do the same or worse as it did then, bugs and all.

But if we improved it so there were better graphics, smoother gameplay, more varied quests, fewer bugs well then it's safe to say it would cost significantly more than the old one did.  And if it costs more than it needs to appeal to a larger audience to recoup more.... you see where I'm going with this.

MMO devs these days are caught in multple catch 22's.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2624

11/23/12 6:53:16 PM#86
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Burntvet

/snip

To offer a couple bits of clarification: SOE announced that SWG had sold over 1 mil units, a short time after the JTL expansion was released, that being original box plus expansion, so it sold at least that many, and certainly a few more than just that.

 

Raph Koster stated several times that SWG was "very cheap" to make. Additionally, the number "around $30 mil" was mentioned, not sure if it was by him.

So, that makes it about 1/8-1/10 the price of TOR.

Ironically, when the NGE hit, SWG had 180k-200k paying accts, generating around $3 mil per month (and the numbers had been higher for the life of SWG prior to that). So, about 10% or so of the production cost per month on a continuing basis (which is very good for the MMO industry)

If you scaled TOR up to generating that same return, it would be 2 mil subs a month, which TOR never really had, and certainly did not maintain even if they ever had that many "paying subs" which I do not think happened.

 

So, on a longer term financial basis, SWG did much, much better for the amount spent on making it.

 




If you're only looking at percentages, SWG did very well. If you're looking at the overall amount of money that ends up available for profit and funding further development, SWG did not do very well.

If there's going to be another SWG like game, there has to be a financial incentive to do so. That means a company with enough resources to pay for the IP, and also develop a game that will pay for the cost to license the IP in addition to making enough profit to fund further development not only on the game that was written, but other games as well. Repeating SWG's success would not do that, so repeating SWG's success is not a financial incentive to write another SWG or SWG like game.

It's not going to happen. I can understand talking about what people would like to happen, but talking about SWG as if it's going to come around again is just a waste of time.

 

Yes I am looking at the percentages, and that is a legitimate way of running corportate finance for a mid sized game company.

MMOs are not funded, by and lange, all at once at the beginning (unless the whole thing is run through a big line of credit, say) so funding on-going game development with on going revenue is not only acceptable, it is largely the industry norm (companies do not save up $75 mil and THEN start making an MMO).

SOE was using revenue/profits from SWG to fund the other things they had going. CCP is doing the same thing now with revenue from EvE for their new MMO, same with Bliz, same with everyone.

The key is have a solid return based on what the total costs were. Obviously, SOE was not happy with that in the case of SWG (and fools they were when getting a 10% gross return per month) and NGE'd the game to many-leveled ruination, but prior to that, the cash flow from SWG alone would have allowed for the production of another (the "next") MMO. Plenty of profit there too, as MMOs cost very little to keep running after release.

And the best evidence that the longterm model of running an MMO works is EvE, as that game has funded multiple engine/game/hardware updates and funded an upcoming MMO.

It is just not a business model that would interest EA or FC or Blizz.....

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9958

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/23/12 7:45:03 PM#87


Originally posted by Burntvet

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Burntvet

/snip
To offer a couple bits of clarification: SOE announced that SWG had sold over 1 mil units, a short time after the JTL expansion was released, that being original box plus expansion, so it sold at least that many, and certainly a few more than just that.   Raph Koster stated several times that SWG was "very cheap" to make. Additionally, the number "around $30 mil" was mentioned, not sure if it was by him. So, that makes it about 1/8-1/10 the price of TOR. Ironically, when the NGE hit, SWG had 180k-200k paying accts, generating around $3 mil per month (and the numbers had been higher for the life of SWG prior to that). So, about 10% or so of the production cost per month on a continuing basis (which is very good for the MMO industry) If you scaled TOR up to generating that same return, it would be 2 mil subs a month, which TOR never really had, and certainly did not maintain even if they ever had that many "paying subs" which I do not think happened.   So, on a longer term financial basis, SWG did much, much better for the amount spent on making it.  
If you're only looking at percentages, SWG did very well. If you're looking at the overall amount of money that ends up available for profit and funding further development, SWG did not do very well. If there's going to be another SWG like game, there has to be a financial incentive to do so. That means a company with enough resources to pay for the IP, and also develop a game that will pay for the cost to license the IP in addition to making enough profit to fund further development not only on the game that was written, but other games as well. Repeating SWG's success would not do that, so repeating SWG's success is not a financial incentive to write another SWG or SWG like game. It's not going to happen. I can understand talking about what people would like to happen, but talking about SWG as if it's going to come around again is just a waste of time.  
Yes I am looking at the percentages, and that is a legitimate way of running corportate finance for a mid sized game company.

MMOs are not funded, by and lange, all at once at the beginning (unless the whole thing is run through a big line of credit, say) so funding on-going game development with on going revenue is not only acceptable, it is largely the industry norm (companies do not save up $75 mil and THEN start making an MMO).

SOE was using revenue/profits from SWG to fund the other things they had going. CCP is doing the same thing now with revenue from EvE for their new MMO, same with Bliz, same with everyone.

The key is have a solid return based on what the total costs were. Obviously, SOE was not happy with that in the case of SWG (and fools they were when getting a 10% gross return per month) and NGE'd the game to many-leveled ruination, but prior to that, the cash flow from SWG alone would have allowed for the production of another (the "next") MMO. Plenty of profit there too, as MMOs cost very little to keep running after release.

And the best evidence that the longterm model of running an MMO works is EvE, as that game has funded multiple engine/game/hardware updates and funded an upcoming MMO.

It is just not a business model that would interest EA or FC or Blizz.....

 




SWG only worked because it was cheap to produce. If the Star Wars IP wasn't cheap, then SWG would not have been viable. SWG2 would not be cheap to produce. The license is going to be a lot more expensive for one, especially since there are three new movies coming out. MMORPG in general cost more to produce now. If the game won't be cheap to produce, then the example of SWG as a success no longer applies. Adjusting for the environment now, SWG isn't viable.

Add to this SWToR's failure to meet goals, and you have not one, but two examples of a Star Wars themed MMORPG's mediocre performance and failure to meet goals.

Take any MMORPG you could write, similar to SWG or not, add the Star Wars theme to it and you've added a 20% (or more) hit on the profit you need to make. "Star Wars" doesn't add any ideas and it doesn't simplify development. It just adds a huge cost. It might bring in more customers, but there's no reason to think those customers would stick around in numbers any higher than they did with SWG or SWToR.

Where is the financial incentive for a game developer to make SWG2? I see lots of incentive to make a game like SWG without the SW IP, but not SWG2.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9958

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/23/12 7:48:46 PM#88


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by free2play Without the SW part.   It's what killed it. SW franchise put unreal expectations on the game. In truth the things that set SWG apart were feature that can be replicated, like the dynamic resource spwns, Logged out harvesting, solid decay on all crafted items and in the start a pure crafted inventory, the 250 point skill system. Flagged world PvP in a PvE game - making populations balanced over servers and providing PvP that wasn't griefed in to the ground. An SWG like game could work and very well.
This might actually work. SWG was reportedly a fairly simple game to develop and didn't require a lot of subscribers to make money. I could see this happening.  
Can't be successful in today's world. Just the graphics upgrade will probably cost a lot. People won't stand for yesterday's technologies.



They aren't talking about yesterday's technologies, they're talking about using the game mechanics that people liked from an existing game. It's a time honored tradition. You'd still have to do everything from scratch, including the graphics.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  zekeofev

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/11
Posts: 221

11/23/12 8:05:52 PM#89

I could care less about the IP. Well, the IP helped but thats not why I liked the game.

 

The crafting system was the best in any MMO to date. (Decaying items, rare spawns). Horizontal advancement. Non combat classes.

 

I would love a developer to come and tell me they based their mechanics off SWG.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17961

11/24/12 1:01:28 AM#90
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by free2play Without the SW part.   It's what killed it. SW franchise put unreal expectations on the game. In truth the things that set SWG apart were feature that can be replicated, like the dynamic resource spwns, Logged out harvesting, solid decay on all crafted items and in the start a pure crafted inventory, the 250 point skill system. Flagged world PvP in a PvE game - making populations balanced over servers and providing PvP that wasn't griefed in to the ground. An SWG like game could work and very well.
This might actually work. SWG was reportedly a fairly simple game to develop and didn't require a lot of subscribers to make money. I could see this happening.  
Can't be successful in today's world. Just the graphics upgrade will probably cost a lot. People won't stand for yesterday's technologies.


They aren't talking about yesterday's technologies, they're talking about using the game mechanics that people liked from an existing game. It's a time honored tradition. You'd still have to do everything from scratch, including the graphics.

 

Graphics cost a lot more today than in SWG times. If it has to be redone, its budget has to be drasticly increased.

  Sandbox

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/23/06
Posts: 309

11/24/12 11:36:19 AM#91
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by free2play Without the SW part.   It's what killed it. SW franchise put unreal expectations on the game. In truth the things that set SWG apart were feature that can be replicated, like the dynamic resource spwns, Logged out harvesting, solid decay on all crafted items and in the start a pure crafted inventory, the 250 point skill system. Flagged world PvP in a PvE game - making populations balanced over servers and providing PvP that wasn't griefed in to the ground. An SWG like game could work and very well.
This might actually work. SWG was reportedly a fairly simple game to develop and didn't require a lot of subscribers to make money. I could see this happening.  
Can't be successful in today's world. Just the graphics upgrade will probably cost a lot. People won't stand for yesterday's technologies.


They aren't talking about yesterday's technologies, they're talking about using the game mechanics that people liked from an existing game. It's a time honored tradition. You'd still have to do everything from scratch, including the graphics.

 

Graphics cost a lot more today than in SWG times. If it has to be redone, its budget has to be drasticly increased.

We have better software tools, better hardware, and more experienced developers than 10 years ago, so why will this end up being more expensive?  How do you motivate that graphics cost a lot more today?

A game is much more than graphics, its the playability that matters for long term commitment to a mmo. People have fun in Minecraft, regardless of its graphics.

 

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2624

11/24/12 11:41:16 AM#92
Originally posted by Sandbox
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by free2play Without the SW part.   It's what killed it. SW franchise put unreal expectations on the game. In truth the things that set SWG apart were feature that can be replicated, like the dynamic resource spwns, Logged out harvesting, solid decay on all crafted items and in the start a pure crafted inventory, the 250 point skill system. Flagged world PvP in a PvE game - making populations balanced over servers and providing PvP that wasn't griefed in to the ground. An SWG like game could work and very well.
This might actually work. SWG was reportedly a fairly simple game to develop and didn't require a lot of subscribers to make money. I could see this happening.  
Can't be successful in today's world. Just the graphics upgrade will probably cost a lot. People won't stand for yesterday's technologies.


They aren't talking about yesterday's technologies, they're talking about using the game mechanics that people liked from an existing game. It's a time honored tradition. You'd still have to do everything from scratch, including the graphics.

 

Graphics cost a lot more today than in SWG times. If it has to be redone, its budget has to be drasticly increased.

We have better software tools, better hardware, and more experienced developers than 10 years ago, so why will this end up being more expensive?  How do you motivate that graphics cost a lot more today?

A game is much more than graphics, its the playability that matters for long term commitment to a mmo. People have fun in Minecraft, regardless of its graphics.

 

Raph Koster and others have discussed this particular aspect a number of times, and sandboxish games tend to be much cheaper to make for the simple reason that it takes a lot less time to build a bunch of complex systems, than to put together many, many hours of guided content.

Original SWG had very little in the way of guided content at the very begining, and that was a primary reason for its low production cost. The guided content could have / did go in over time as the game kept making money.

The same would be true today.

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9958

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/24/12 11:50:38 AM#93


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by free2play Without the SW part.   It's what killed it. SW franchise put unreal expectations on the game. In truth the things that set SWG apart were feature that can be replicated, like the dynamic resource spwns, Logged out harvesting, solid decay on all crafted items and in the start a pure crafted inventory, the 250 point skill system. Flagged world PvP in a PvE game - making populations balanced over servers and providing PvP that wasn't griefed in to the ground. An SWG like game could work and very well.
This might actually work. SWG was reportedly a fairly simple game to develop and didn't require a lot of subscribers to make money. I could see this happening.  
Can't be successful in today's world. Just the graphics upgrade will probably cost a lot. People won't stand for yesterday's technologies.
They aren't talking about yesterday's technologies, they're talking about using the game mechanics that people liked from an existing game. It's a time honored tradition. You'd still have to do everything from scratch, including the graphics.  
Graphics cost a lot more today than in SWG times. If it has to be redone, its budget has to be drasticly increased.


The budget would be increased compared to SWG, but no more so than any other MMORPG today. It wouldn't be any more expensive to produce than Wild Star or Rift. It could be less expensive to produce.

Once you drop the dependency on the Star Wars IP, you drop an outstanding cost that doesn't really net you anything. What's left is an MMOPRG based off of whatever IP you can come up with.

I'm not saying it's easy or cheap, but it wouldn't be any harder or more expensive than any other MMORPG being produced today.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Sandbox

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/23/06
Posts: 309

11/24/12 12:10:20 PM#94
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Sandbox
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by free2play Without the SW part.   It's what killed it. SW franchise put unreal expectations on the game. In truth the things that set SWG apart were feature that can be replicated, like the dynamic resource spwns, Logged out harvesting, solid decay on all crafted items and in the start a pure crafted inventory, the 250 point skill system. Flagged world PvP in a PvE game - making populations balanced over servers and providing PvP that wasn't griefed in to the ground. An SWG like game could work and very well.
This might actually work. SWG was reportedly a fairly simple game to develop and didn't require a lot of subscribers to make money. I could see this happening.  
Can't be successful in today's world. Just the graphics upgrade will probably cost a lot. People won't stand for yesterday's technologies.


They aren't talking about yesterday's technologies, they're talking about using the game mechanics that people liked from an existing game. It's a time honored tradition. You'd still have to do everything from scratch, including the graphics.

 

Graphics cost a lot more today than in SWG times. If it has to be redone, its budget has to be drasticly increased.

We have better software tools, better hardware, and more experienced developers than 10 years ago, so why will this end up being more expensive?  How do you motivate that graphics cost a lot more today?

A game is much more than graphics, its the playability that matters for long term commitment to a mmo. People have fun in Minecraft, regardless of its graphics.

 

Raph Koster and others have discussed this particular aspect a number of times, and sandboxish games tend to be much cheaper to make for the simple reason that it takes a lot less time to build a bunch of complex systems, than to put together many, many hours of guided content.

Original SWG had very little in the way of guided content at the very begining, and that was a primary reason for its low production cost. The guided content could have / did go in over time as the game kept making money.

The same would be true today.

 

I was curious why nariusseldon think the graphics have to be so much more expensive, thus making a new game impossible.

In general it was concluded it was the cost of maintenance and update of developer provided guided content that was the more expensive part, compared to a sandboxish world. That’s the part where it gets expensive to keep up with new content in a timely fashion.

The initial cost is probably higher for a sandbox world with a lot of different systems (player tools) to build and integrate into one big world.

  madazz

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1256

11/24/12 12:15:02 PM#95
It's because its a game he doesn't want to play. He will have something made up to counter anything you say. Even when his arguement is illogical he will push it, as he in no way wants to play the game that is being theorized. As such, he feels a burning desire, nay, insatiable hunger to try and disuade anyone else from having a creative thought that doesn't directly coincide with his own interests.
  niceguy3978

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/06
Posts: 1963

11/24/12 12:53:10 PM#96
Originally posted by Onomas
Originally posted by Icewhite

 Why don't you?

Because it never topped 300k subs, most likely.  Remember to think like a corporate bean-counter.

300k was a lot back in those days. You have to remember not everyone was online or had internet at the time. And mmo;s were actualy designed for adults not kids. WOW when it released the amount of people online doubled/tripled and it went after the younger player base. It also had a strong IP (for all you rts warcraft people, it was good). SO many things effected WOW's release and it was just a perfect time for blizzard.

 

If redone and released today you would have seen a lot of games sold as SWTOR did. And SWTOR wasnt even a 10th of a game that SWG was. So many are tired of the dumbed down mmorpg's of today and think a game like this would gather the masses quickly. Think archeage and the repopulation along with black desert and few other good sandboxes coming you will see a shift in players.

Its not like SWG launched years before wow, it launched about 18 months before wow with the biggest IP in the world.  If people were going to buy a game because of the IP it would have been SWG not WoW.  And Sony had a ton of good will due to Everquest (which SWG couldn't top either).

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17961

11/24/12 1:31:07 PM#97
Originally posted by Sandbox
 

I was curious why nariusseldon think the graphics have to be so much more expensive, thus making a new game impossible.

In general it was concluded it was the cost of maintenance and update of developer provided guided content that was the more expensive part, compared to a sandboxish world. That’s the part where it gets expensive to keep up with new content in a timely fashion.

The initial cost is probably higher for a sandbox world with a lot of different systems (player tools) to build and integrate into one big world.

Bcause producing graphical (and level) content becomes more and more expensive in the later generation of consoles. I mean it is cheap if you want 2000 graphics. But if you want it look good right next to Tera, or the latest console SW game, you need to spend a bundle.

  winter

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 2159

11/24/12 1:40:46 PM#98
Originally posted by LoverNoFighter

It's obvious that a lot of people would want it to happen.

SWG had so many elements that players appreciated and loved.

It's 7 years ( SWG pre cu era ) since it was shut downed and still people talk about how they miss it.

With SWTOR's failure and the upcoming resurrection of SW, it's time to act.

  people quickly forget the past and tend to remember thinsg with rose colored glasses much better then they ever were.

 SWG even before NGE was bleeding subs and dieing so fast SOE/LA ditched it for the NGE which also failed. Sw is dying face it. Sometimes it better to just let things go and keep our memories then drag the dead horse back out so it can be beaten some more. the SW prequels were a good example of this. Do we really need or want more Jar jar Binks?

  winter

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 2159

11/24/12 1:45:54 PM#99
Originally posted by niceguy3978
Originally posted by Onomas
Originally posted by Icewhite

 Why don't you?

Because it never topped 300k subs, most likely.  Remember to think like a corporate bean-counter.

300k was a lot back in those days. You have to remember not everyone was online or had internet at the time. And mmo;s were actualy designed for adults not kids. WOW when it released the amount of people online doubled/tripled and it went after the younger player base. It also had a strong IP (for all you rts warcraft people, it was good). SO many things effected WOW's release and it was just a perfect time for blizzard.

 

If redone and released today you would have seen a lot of games sold as SWTOR did. And SWTOR wasnt even a 10th of a game that SWG was. So many are tired of the dumbed down mmorpg's of today and think a game like this would gather the masses quickly. Think archeage and the repopulation along with black desert and few other good sandboxes coming you will see a shift in players.

Its not like SWG launched years before wow, it launched about 18 months before wow with the biggest IP in the world.  If people were going to buy a game because of the IP it would have been SWG not WoW.  And Sony had a ton of good will due to Everquest (which SWG couldn't top either).

 ^This^ +1 if SWG couldn't happen then it sure is not gonna happen now with the IP pretty much dead unless you consider the clone wars cartoon a notable success. Also SOE is pretty much in the dumps these days with a rep only slightly better then EA's a company voted the worst.

  Baseline

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/04
Posts: 488

11/24/12 2:55:27 PM#100

It wouldn't be the same.

There are a lot more variables now than there were 10 years ago in that SWG pre-cu era of online gaming, mainly the availability of information.

In 2003, there was less of a powergamer attitude of spending endless hours playing, there were less people googling everything that presents a modicum of challenge, there was less "I need the cookie cutter plan to pwn" and the people who profit off of that mentality with ad-monetized blogs and youtube channels with "here's how you pwn" videos.

Sorry, the golden age of MMO's is done, and it has nothing to do with making another game like SWG again, it has to do with the fact that the players of the genre have advanced to a degenerate phase of e-civilization, where they are no longer the fit healthy man who hunts for his own food and knows how to do and build things with his own hands, but he is instead a fat lazy business owner who would freak out if he didn't have his motorized transportation and supermarkets.

Get the analogy? He'll never feel the thrill of the hunt, killing his own dinner, instead he feels the cold monotonus routine of picking up the cellophane-wrapped steak and sliding his credit card as he curses at hitting what seem like a few extra red lights.

I took it too far, didn't I.

You could also talk about what Raph Koster spoke of in this degenerate era of MMO's, 'gamification', the companies treating game design as a game itself to maximize profit and 'productivity'.

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