Originally posted by Eladi
just wait a while and you hate it even more ;)  its more and more common for f2p/free minium  games to Offer a subcription to acces ..80% of the game but keep a lot of stuff (usaly  costumes and alike)  in the shop for you to buy :P

Once everyone is use to F2P it wont be just cosmetic. It will end up like the Perfect World F2P games. DO you really think a company is going to dump a ton of cash into a game for a small return......not a chance in hell.

Sadly all the pro F2P people confuse the games that were a sub first and then went freemium with the real F2P games....the ones they don't play because you are forced to use the cash shop.

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Originally posted by CalmOceans

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Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Nope they were just as I stated.  They were at the log in screen but in game it was a tiny little button in the corner.  Thats it.  If you consider something off in the corner to be intrusive I guess it was.  To me it was a non-issue, no more intrusive than the date/time on my desktop.   edit screenshots on new bard alt: log in screen  in game screen EQ and EQ2 they are a button in the bottom left and even smaller.  Haven't played those in a few months so not going to redownload the game just to grab some screenshots.  CoH, Aion and CO I dont' even recall seeing a button, I"m sure they were there but dont' recall what it looked like or where it was only that I wasn't bothered by it. 

---

Half of Everquest's loot is prestige, every prestige item requires you to upgrade to a gold membership or you can't equip it. Every augment that is prestige reminds you to buy a gold membership. Your missing bag slots remind you to either go Gold or buy storage space from the cash shop. Mercenaries over J1 require you to buy them from the cash shop or buy Gold membership. Mercenary slots require you to buy them from the cash shop. AA abilities require  money if you're not Gold,  unlocking classes requires you to buy them from the cash shop or go Gold. Owning over a certain amount of platinum, costs real life money or you need to buy a Gold membership.

No kidding you're not reminded, you are continiously reminded in the game itself on every other turn that you have to pay for everything under the sun. The gameplay itself is locked behind paywalls, the more you progress, the more paywalls you run into, and then you have 2 options, either pay a lot of money in the cash shop or go P2P. EQ is not a F2P game, it's a F2P trial and if you want to get anywhere in the game you have to pay. Raid items are prestige, you either pay or you're never wearing a raid item. You would be useless as a character if you didn't eventually get good augments and unlocked more AA. You can't even progress beyond a certain point if you don't spend money to ulock enough AA.

Claiming it's just a simple button on the side is misinterpretation to the extreme, if you play EQ as a F2P game, you either buy unlocks for gear and AA, or you stop playing the game when you run into the paywalls, and you will run into them after you need more than a few hundred AA and actually want your character to progress instead of dying on every mob.

That never happened when games were simply P2P.

---

I love how everyone has ignored this post.
Guess it would be "/thread over" if people acknowledged it :/

Originally posted by Z3R01

I used to be a crazy ass hardcore gamer. I would put 8-10+ hours into a mmo a day.

For a person like that F2p is miserable. To be that dedicated to one game you would need to spend way more money in a shop than you would by subscribing. 

 

As i've gotten older i'm more of a casual guy now. I dont invest too much into one game. I hop around put 10-20 hours in a game move on. For me F2p is amazing.

+1. Only difference that I started mmo-hopping way before the f2p tidal wave to avoid the burning-out effect, so f2p only brought me the convenience that I don't have to cancel / resub / watching the dates, etc. And that I still investing time and money into my main mmo's. But I constantly trying out new ones on the side as they emerges :)

Originally posted by Icewhite

Are we really so damn cheap that we have to have the subs argument every week?

Buy one less can of Mt. Dew a day--your gaming bill is paid! Huzzah.

I think more of the argument is that people have been (on recent pages of this thread) talking about subbing to MULTIPLE games and how pricey that can get.  I personally can relate to this, but also would add that every sub in my house requires at least 2 subs or 3 if my son wants to play as well.  My partner and I play together regardless of what game we're playing, so we're talking a potential 45 dollars a month PER GAME in my house.  I'm telling you that gets a bit painful unless we limit ourselves to one game really.  This is hard to do when we LIKE several different games.  For instance, EQ2, WoW, and GW2.  There's no way, even with GW2 that that is a cheap hobby.  (We pay for EQ2 because the f2p is ridiculous, and in GW2 we have purchased a few things in the cash shop, so yes, it's our fault, but nonetheless.....not cheap.)

Originally posted by majinant

 

---

Originally posted by CalmOceans

---

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Nope they were just as I stated.  They were at the log in screen but in game it was a tiny little button in the corner.  Thats it.  If you consider something off in the corner to be intrusive I guess it was.  To me it was a non-issue, no more intrusive than the date/time on my desktop.   edit screenshots on new bard alt: log in screen  in game screen EQ and EQ2 they are a button in the bottom left and even smaller.  Haven't played those in a few months so not going to redownload the game just to grab some screenshots.  CoH, Aion and CO I dont' even recall seeing a button, I"m sure they were there but dont' recall what it looked like or where it was only that I wasn't bothered by it. 

---

Half of Everquest's loot is prestige, every prestige item requires you to upgrade to a gold membership or you can't equip it. Every augment that is prestige reminds you to buy a gold membership. Your missing bag slots remind you to either go Gold or buy storage space from the cash shop. Mercenaries over J1 require you to buy them from the cash shop or buy Gold membership. Mercenary slots require you to buy them from the cash shop. AA abilities require  money if you're not Gold,  unlocking classes requires you to buy them from the cash shop or go Gold. Owning over a certain amount of platinum, costs real life money or you need to buy a Gold membership.

 

No kidding you're not reminded, you are continiously reminded in the game itself on every other turn that you have to pay for everything under the sun. The gameplay itself is locked behind paywalls, the more you progress, the more paywalls you run into, and then you have 2 options, either pay a lot of money in the cash shop or go P2P. EQ is not a F2P game, it's a F2P trial and if you want to get anywhere in the game you have to pay. Raid items are prestige, you either pay or you're never wearing a raid item. You would be useless as a character if you didn't eventually get good augments and unlocked more AA. You can't even progress beyond a certain point if you don't spend money to ulock enough AA.

Claiming it's just a simple button on the side is misinterpretation to the extreme, if you play EQ as a F2P game, you either buy unlocks for gear and AA, or you stop playing the game when you run into the paywalls, and you will run into them after you need more than a few hundred AA and actually want your character to progress instead of dying on every mob.

That never happened when games were simply P2P.

 

---

 

I love how everyone has ignored this post.
Guess it would be "/thread over" if people acknowledged it :/

Everyone has "ignored" it because it's only about ONE game.  EQ doesn't apply to every other game.  Some of the problems persist throughout the f2p, sub and freemium models and others are specific to just one payment model.  I think most of the posts have been speaking more broadly than the post you quoted.  People probably read it and posted their OWN thoughts on the topic.  No reason for this post to /thread......seriously.

The problem is: 

F2P, B2P or freemium isn't cheaper. They're making more money that's why so many are converting. 

Simple and spot on example:

--> When I started playing LotRO in 2007 it was hard as nails P2P. No cash shop, no freemium ,nothing. Back then, I farmed rep for cloaks I liked. Farmed deeds for titles I liked. Cost me 8,99/month with a 6-month plan. I paid exactly 107,88€ per year.

--> Now, I'm on VIP because buying all the questhubs up until Moria would cost me around 5000 cash shop points, I need GM support now and then, I wanna start auctions now and then. You know, to keep the stuff running I took for granted when everything was P2P. BUT: Now they give me 500 cash shop points every month for my still 8,99/month subscription and put every vanity item, from mount to cloak to cosmetic armor, in the cash shop. They put the sixth bag in the cash shop, deeds in the cash shop, quick travel in the cash shop.

And charge a lot more than 500 points for it... 

Now you could argue, and commonly people DO argue that "well if you need cosmetic crap it's your own fault, just don't buy it", but frankly, part of my motivation back in 2008/09 was grinding rep for rep-based vanity items, mounts, cloaks, housing stuff...

So after soing the math (basic game experience from P2P + vanity items I used to get with P2P) I usually pay around 20 bucks a month for the game for the exact same game experience I had for 8,99/month three years ago.

So my imo valid argument is that, while freemium and F2P aren't inherently evil, they're just making games more expensive. You're getting nickle and dimed, no matter what they try to tell you.

M

Originally posted by Z3R01

Originally posted by madazz

Originally posted by Z3R01

Originally posted by Consequence

 

Sorry, but the price of a movie and some popcorn is hardly too much for a months worth of playtime

 

Dude i live in NYC a movie and popcorn/soda is like 35 bucks...

I'm here wondering if subscriptions raised in price lol!

That is an outright lie. A ticket costs $13.00 for an adult at a typical theatre in NYC. So unless you found a place that serves gourmet pop and popcorn that costs $22.00 on top of that, you are lieing.

well tbh with you its been over 20 years since ive gone to the movies alone...

I know with me ,the wife and 4 kids seeing a 3D flick and buying everyone popcorn, candy and soda ive spend well into 150 bucks lol.

for one person 13 bucks is kind of low. Where are you going to the movies? near the brooklyn projects? 

 

 

Nope, just this summer I went to two movies with friends in the heart of NYC. For a 3D movie we spent $15.75, for a regular 2D movie we spent $13.00. My pop was over priced but refillable at $5.00, and popcorn actually wasn't too bad. All in all, for the 2D movie I spent around $20.00 and for the 3D around $24.00. I didn't get popcorn, I opted for the more expensive candy :)

Also, I did a quick google and found links to current prices of theatres in the centre and surrounding areas of new york. The average price is indeed $13.00 for a ticket, and with many combo prices below $20.00.

So where are you going to see the movies? Near the brooklyn projects in some guys basement who threatens to break your legs if you don't pay $35.00?

Originally posted by just1opinion

Originally posted by majinant

 

---

Originally posted by CalmOceans

---

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Nope they were just as I stated.  They were at the log in screen but in game it was a tiny little button in the corner.  Thats it.  If you consider something off in the corner to be intrusive I guess it was.  To me it was a non-issue, no more intrusive than the date/time on my desktop.   edit screenshots on new bard alt: log in screen  in game screen EQ and EQ2 they are a button in the bottom left and even smaller.  Haven't played those in a few months so not going to redownload the game just to grab some screenshots.  CoH, Aion and CO I dont' even recall seeing a button, I"m sure they were there but dont' recall what it looked like or where it was only that I wasn't bothered by it. 

---

Half of Everquest's loot is prestige, every prestige item requires you to upgrade to a gold membership or you can't equip it. Every augment that is prestige reminds you to buy a gold membership. Your missing bag slots remind you to either go Gold or buy storage space from the cash shop. Mercenaries over J1 require you to buy them from the cash shop or buy Gold membership. Mercenary slots require you to buy them from the cash shop. AA abilities require  money if you're not Gold,  unlocking classes requires you to buy them from the cash shop or go Gold. Owning over a certain amount of platinum, costs real life money or you need to buy a Gold membership.

 

No kidding you're not reminded, you are continiously reminded in the game itself on every other turn that you have to pay for everything under the sun. The gameplay itself is locked behind paywalls, the more you progress, the more paywalls you run into, and then you have 2 options, either pay a lot of money in the cash shop or go P2P. EQ is not a F2P game, it's a F2P trial and if you want to get anywhere in the game you have to pay. Raid items are prestige, you either pay or you're never wearing a raid item. You would be useless as a character if you didn't eventually get good augments and unlocked more AA. You can't even progress beyond a certain point if you don't spend money to ulock enough AA.

Claiming it's just a simple button on the side is misinterpretation to the extreme, if you play EQ as a F2P game, you either buy unlocks for gear and AA, or you stop playing the game when you run into the paywalls, and you will run into them after you need more than a few hundred AA and actually want your character to progress instead of dying on every mob.

That never happened when games were simply P2P.

 

---

 

I love how everyone has ignored this post.
Guess it would be "/thread over" if people acknowledged it :/

 

Everyone has "ignored" it because it's only about ONE game.  EQ doesn't apply to every other game.  Some of the problems persist throughout the f2p, sub and freemium models and others are specific to just one payment model.  I think most of the posts have been speaking more broadly than the post you quoted.  People probably read it and posted their OWN thoughts on the topic.  No reason for this post to /thread......seriously.

Agreed, EQ2 is a shining example of how NOT to do F2P IMO. Not all of them are THAT bad.

I truly hope that the F2P / B2P model is short lived for the MMO genre.   I understand all of the talking points from F2P / B2P advocates but the reality is that these types of games are in many cases ruining the genre by lowering the standards of quality, content, and support.

Out of all the F2P / B2P games that have been released or converted over the past few years, only LOTRO has proven to be somewhat successful.  Many would argue that GW2 is successful but it really hasn't been out long enough to determine what kind of longevity it will have or how the CS will evolve.

Bottom line is that gaming is not a right, it's a priviledge that not everyone can take part in or afford.  By attempting to make games, MMO's in particular, available to anyone with a computer we've significantly compromised the most critical component to long term playability which is our communities. 

Originally posted by madazz

Originally posted by Z3R01

Originally posted by madazz

Originally posted by Z3R01

Originally posted by Consequence

 

Sorry, but the price of a movie and some popcorn is hardly too much for a months worth of playtime

 

Dude i live in NYC a movie and popcorn/soda is like 35 bucks...

I'm here wondering if subscriptions raised in price lol!

That is an outright lie. A ticket costs $13.00 for an adult at a typical theatre in NYC. So unless you found a place that serves gourmet pop and popcorn that costs $22.00 on top of that, you are lieing.

well tbh with you its been over 20 years since ive gone to the movies alone...

I know with me ,the wife and 4 kids seeing a 3D flick and buying everyone popcorn, candy and soda ive spend well into 150 bucks lol.

for one person 13 bucks is kind of low. Where are you going to the movies? near the brooklyn projects? 

 

 

Nope, just this summer I went to two movies with friends in the heart of NYC. For a 3D movie we spent $15.75, for a regular 2D movie we spent $13.00. My pop was over priced but refillable at $5.00, and popcorn actually wasn't too bad. All in all, for the 2D movie I spent around $20.00 and for the 3D around $24.00. I didn't get popcorn, I opted for the more expensive candy :)

Also, I did a quick google and found links to current prices of theatres in the centre and surrounding areas of new york. The average price is indeed $13.00 for a ticket, and with many combo prices below $20.00.

So where are you going to see the movies? Near the brooklyn projects in some guys basement who threatens to break your legs if you don't pay $35.00?

Are you seriously forum warrioring movie prices? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't believe you wasted your time googling ticket prices!!!!!

LOL

Originally posted by fat_taddler

Bottom line is that gaming is not a right, it's a priviledge that not everyone can take part in or afford.  By attempting to make games, MMO's in particular, available to anyone with a computer we've significantly compromised the most critical component to long term playability which is our communities. 

 

Gamign is not a right, but a competitive business. If devs want a large player base, F2P is the way to go.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by aladinversuk
i'd rather play in a F2P server rather than a subscribtion based one. having monthly sub fee could make you feel obligated to play the game else your money will just be wasted. in a f2p server, vip or premium services are optional and you can pick it up whenever you feel like it.

 

'wasted'?

How little would you actually have to play in a week to feel like £2.50 (or thereabouts) was 'wasted'? An hour? Two?

My thought is that if you are playing less than an hour a week in a MMORPG often enough to feel the burn of the 'waste' then maybe this genre isn't for you.

My opinion is that the sub offers amazing value on an ongoing basis and promotes better core game design and a more stable community, with less focus on manipulating you into spending, and a more even play field for play to achieve gamers.

 

I actually think that the F2P model is pretty destructive to these games on a number of levels and, overall, represent worse value (under the often illusion of 'choice').

 

Exactly.  Thank you.

I am so tired of this new argument against P2P.    I never feel I have "wasted" $15, even if I only login 1 or 2 days in a month.  It's a ridiculous argument that needs to go away sooner rather than later.  

If $15 seems like a lot of money for a month of entertainment to you, you really have no business having an interest in MMOs.  That's my opinion.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by fat_taddler

Bottom line is that gaming is not a right, it's a priviledge that not everyone can take part in or afford.  By attempting to make games, MMO's in particular, available to anyone with a computer we've significantly compromised the most critical component to long term playability which is our communities. 

 

Gamign is not a right, but a competitive business. If devs want a large player base, F2P is the way to go.

The problem with large player bases is that in most cases, they only last a month or two.   I'm pretty sure that most devs and publishers would prefer a smaller yet extremely loyal player base that provides consistent, predictable revenue over several years. 

Originally posted by fat_taddler

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by fat_taddler

Bottom line is that gaming is not a right, it's a priviledge that not everyone can take part in or afford.  By attempting to make games, MMO's in particular, available to anyone with a computer we've significantly compromised the most critical component to long term playability which is our communities. 

 

Gamign is not a right, but a competitive business. If devs want a large player base, F2P is the way to go.

The problem with large player bases is that in most cases, they only last a month or two.   I'm pretty sure that most devs and publishers would prefer a smaller yet extremely loyal player base that provides consistent, predictable revenue over several years. 

LOL has a growing playerbase for more than a month or two. DDO, LOTOR all have much bigger ongoing player base after going F2P.

I am sure the reveneue math must have worked out for some many games going F2P. And P2P does not ensure loyalty. Where do you get that idea?

There is simply little loyalty and devs should plan as such.

I'm pretty much done with subscriptions.  I don't really care about the philosophy of it.  There are several F2P or B2P games that I enjoy and that is all that matters to me.

When and if there is ever a decent game worth a recurring fee then I'll consider it, but as of now there isn't a game out there I think is worth a subscription.

Originally posted by Strycker

This will be a short, little post/rant.

 

Something that has been bugging me the last year or two in the industry is the freemium and B2P model taking off. This is my personal opinion: I think their downright awful (Freemium more than B2P). Yet this isn't the part that really makes me boil, but this huge populatiuon of people popping up stating that it's a A) Barrier of entry and B) Any "sub game" (mentioned almost as a blasphemous term these days) will result in failure in an adjusting market.

 

I'm not going to sit here and make a pros and cons list of each BUT;

When I pay my $15 a month I:

 

- Don't have to actively be reminded I'm spending money on a game regularly (And certaintly not in seperate installments every week).

 

- KNOW that I'll have access to ALL the current  and upcoming content without having to do a damn thing.

 

- My immersion stays intact without seeing: "You have to spend X to unlock Hotbar 2 or Bagslot 6".

 

- In terms of barrier to entry: There's trials for just about every MMO, even free clients to level X. Hell, in RIft's example, buying the game is cheaper for the first month than paying the sub would be!

 

- It's FIFTEEN dollars a month; I know people are from different incomes, areas, etc , but comeon here. When I was 14 I could put aside fifteen dollars a month for an MMO, and now that I'm a broke college student fending for myself - I'm still capable and happily willing to put aside fifteen dollars for a vice that offers hundreds of more hours and more variety than most.

 

That last point just leads me to believe that stereotypes revolving around gamers, specifically MMOers, is true:

We're fat, lazy, and broke kids who sit around all day jobless.

 

Hardy har har, Netflix should be freemium and you buy movies individually instead of being charged 7.99-14.99 a month!

I started playing the MMO world at the age of 11 , and I had to pay a sub fee of 10$ for Nexus the kingdom of the winds , so what did I do? I started working as a paperboy , delivered around 20 newspaper , which took 15-20 minutes , and voila my sub fee was paid with some extra left over!!  Yes people complain about P2P because their lazy bastards who just cry all day instead of doing something out of their lives. Anyways I enjoy my EVE-Online for almost 7 years now and will keep on going at it until I pass away! F2P is garbage , and will continue on bashing F2P until I pass away!  Ya'll have a good day now!  :)

Originally posted by SuprGamerX

Originally posted by Strycker

This will be a short, little post/rant.

 

Something that has been bugging me the last year or two in the industry is the freemium and B2P model taking off. This is my personal opinion: I think their downright awful (Freemium more than B2P). Yet this isn't the part that really makes me boil, but this huge populatiuon of people popping up stating that it's a A) Barrier of entry and B) Any "sub game" (mentioned almost as a blasphemous term these days) will result in failure in an adjusting market.

 

I'm not going to sit here and make a pros and cons list of each BUT;

When I pay my $15 a month I:

 

- Don't have to actively be reminded I'm spending money on a game regularly (And certaintly not in seperate installments every week).

 

- KNOW that I'll have access to ALL the current  and upcoming content without having to do a damn thing.

 

- My immersion stays intact without seeing: "You have to spend X to unlock Hotbar 2 or Bagslot 6".

 

- In terms of barrier to entry: There's trials for just about every MMO, even free clients to level X. Hell, in RIft's example, buying the game is cheaper for the first month than paying the sub would be!

 

- It's FIFTEEN dollars a month; I know people are from different incomes, areas, etc , but comeon here. When I was 14 I could put aside fifteen dollars a month for an MMO, and now that I'm a broke college student fending for myself - I'm still capable and happily willing to put aside fifteen dollars for a vice that offers hundreds of more hours and more variety than most.

 

That last point just leads me to believe that stereotypes revolving around gamers, specifically MMOers, is true:

We're fat, lazy, and broke kids who sit around all day jobless.

 

Hardy har har, Netflix should be freemium and you buy movies individually instead of being charged 7.99-14.99 a month!

I started playing the MMO world at the age of 11 , and I had to pay a sub fee of 10$ for Nexus the kingdom of the winds , so what did I do? I started working as a paperboy , delivered around 20 newspaper , which took 15-20 minutes , and voila my sub fee was paid with some extra left over!!  Yes people complain about P2P because their lazy bastards who just cry all day instead of doing something out of their lives. Anyways I enjoy my EVE-Online for almost 7 years now and will keep on going at it until I pass away! F2P is garbage , and will continue on bashing F2P until I pass away!  Ya'll have a good day now!  :)

Throw your money away all you want.  A lot of people have jobs and throw their money away.

The reason I have money is because I work and don't throw it away like a derp.  I'll spend my money how I like since I earned it.  And I don't want to spend it on p2p content churn games.

I spend less money per year on F2P than P2P and still get a better gaming experience for what I want.

I get a real laugh from the people who think I should spend my money like they want.  Too bad.  Eat it.  I'm not paying subs anymore.

Everyone is missing the point! A F2P MMO is more likely to be shutdown than a B2P/P2P MMO. Am I right? Besides, time is what matters. How would you feel you spent a week grinding something and then the server was shutdown? You could have had a job instead and played the sub based one, which! You still will be able to play since the sub already supports the server. It is all relative and a matter of prefference, but time is a variable that can drastically change any circumstance.

Whether you like it or not, its how it is . 

Originally posted by axtranti

Everyone is missing the point! A F2P MMO is more likely to be shutdown than a B2P/P2P MMO. Am I right? Besides, time is what matters. How would you feel you spent a week grinding something and then the server was shutdown? You could have had a job instead and played the sub based one, which! You still will be able to play since the sub already supports the server. It is all relative and a matter of prefference, but time is a variable that can drastically change any circumstance.

 

Whether you like it or not, its how it is . 

No your not right.  There have been many f2p mmo's going on for years, just like P2P.  There have been several that have closed down.  Just like P2P.

Originally posted by axtranti

Everyone is missing the point! A F2P MMO is more likely to be shutdown than a B2P/P2P MMO. Am I right? Besides, time is what matters. How would you feel you spent a week grinding something and then the server was shutdown? You could have had a job instead and played the sub based one, which! You still will be able to play since the sub already supports the server. It is all relative and a matter of prefference, but time is a variable that can drastically change any circumstance.

 

Whether you like it or not, its how it is . 

Not a popular one like LOTRO, STO, DDO or DCUO.

And what if it is shut down 3 month from now. I have fun now. I thought it is about the journey, not the destination. If a game i play shuts down, i move on to the next one. In fact, it is more than likely that i will move on WAY BEFORE it shuts down.