Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Vannor

 Raiding is the hardest content so it deserves the best rewards..

The highlighted orange part *is* your opinion.  My answer to him didn't go there, but I don't agree with you at all.  For one, raiding isn't really that hard other than the cat herding.  It's mostly disco dancing (jump, move, and dance around based on event conditions) and simon says (don't stand in the visual effect, only stay in the blue circle, don't let the lasers touch you, etc) with dps, hps, and mitigation checks.  Once you learn the pattern or system then you're golden.  They're only harder because there are more people that can cause failure.   Individual skill between master modes and raids really isn't any different.  Why should I lose out on a reward or drop because someone else made a  mistake.  Add in the idiotic politics and the few people who control what the rest of us get, and in no way do I think raiding deserves more or better.

It's a poor reward system in my opinion.  Multiiple golden paths to the same quality rewards is a much better design.  Not only that but participating in any of them should all add to that progression.  But like I said, he just wanted to know if everything but raid gear was second best and I answered him.  That's all.

     Perfectly said.. I don't think I could of said it any better..  I always said that raiding is like country line dancing.. It really isnt' hard, you just have to learn the moves as a group.. After that is done, it's a walk in the park you can do blindfolded.. I found raiding to be boring after the first chorus.. lol  However, in Rift which lead me to quit was the disparity of rewards when doing open world rifts.. I bought the game for that sole purpose as I wanted to avoid an instance grind game.. The rewards fro rift hunting was crap.. In addition at the time I quit all players that spent their time doing instancing outperformed in PvE rift events, which means I recieved 2nd place rewards.. Because I didnt' have raid gear I could never achieve the reward level of the better "stones"? or whatever you called them.. 

    If Trion would change their PvE rewards so that rift hunting is equally rewarded as raiders, I"d come back.. But if I have to contiue to play 2nd fiddle to a raider while doing a rift events.. I'll stay cancelled..

Seems I am not so alone in my desire to see different end game activitys rewarded on seperate paths after all :p

Go back a few posts Rydeson and read what I said above each sphere of end-game offering its own progression route !

     TY Demarco.. I did go back a few post and read what you said..  I agree completely.. I had offer similar suggestion back when I played, and was told to "get lost" by the raiders..  To me, Rift is comprised of 4 different paths or play style.. You can either 1) PvP, 2) Raid, 3) dungeon crawl or 4) Rift hunting..  I wish each had their own importance.. Most seem to accept and understand that PvP isn't good to use in a Raid, and Raid gear is not optimal in PvP... Well.. Why not use that same logic between Rifts and Raids?

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Originally posted by Rydeson
     TY Demarco.. I did go back a few post and read what you said..  I agree completely.. I had offer similar suggestion back when I played, and was told to "get lost" by the raiders..  To me, Rift is comprised of 4 different paths or play style.. You can either 1) PvP, 2) Raid, 3) dungeon crawl or 4) Rift hunting..  I wish each had their own importance.. Most seem to accept and understand that PvP isn't good to use in a Raid, and Raid gear is not optimal in PvP... Well.. Why not use that same logic between Rifts and Raids?

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You can now add dimensions to that list and rift hunting has become its own robust content and reward system.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Vannor

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by demarc01

Originally posted by Xhieron

/snip

^ He gets it.

Sorry if my OP was unclear to people, yes I am basically asking if non-raiders are second class. I had read about some of the Chronicles and such that Rift introduced, but had no clue as to the rewards etc.

Yes, non-raiders are second class.  It wouldn't have taken much research on your part to figure that out.  There are whole wikis devoted to gear tiers and what it takes to get them.  You can compare stats at Zam for example.

So adding IAs, Expert Dungeons, Master Dungeons, new types of Rifts, new world events, new zone events, new warfronts, upcoming new conquest maps, new tiers of planar gear, new tiers of PvP gear, new Chronicles.. and more, is catering to raiders?

Raiders are getting the smallest amount of content in the game. So far they have 1 new set of upgradable gear and a couple raids. Raiding is the hardest content so it deserves the best rewards.. that's the way of all things. But in terms of how much they have to actually do, content, they have far less than any other area.

If this game catered to raiders the new expansion would be more than 50% raid content.. and it isn't. It's probably not even 5%.

I never said catering to anyone.  Don't put words in my mouth or play silly games.

You're right, you didn't. I apologise for that. But other people in the thread had said things along them lines, which is probably why I added it in my reply to you. I just shouldn't have directly quoted anyone.

If any of your gear is not top tier raid gear it is second best.  That's not an opinion and it was a direct answer to his question.

The highlighted orange part *is* your opinion.  My answer to him didn't go there, but I don't agree with you at all.  For one, raiding isn't really that hard other than the cat herding.  It's mostly disco dancing (jump, move, and dance around based on event conditions) and simon says (don't stand in the visual effect, only stay in the blue circle, don't let the lasers touch you, etc) with dps, hps, and mitigation checks.  Once you learn the pattern or system then you're golden.  They're only harder because there are more people that can cause failure.   Individual skill between master modes and raids really isn't any different.  Why should I lose out on a reward or drop because someone else made a  mistake.  Add in the idiotic politics and the few people who control what the rest of us get, and in no way do I think raiding deserves more or better.

Red bit: So they are harder? Thanks for sharing my 'opinion'. The bluey bit: isn't that what co-operative multiplayer is all about?

It's a poor reward system in my opinion.  Multiiple golden paths to the same quality rewards is a much better design.  Not only that but participating in any of them should all add to that progression.  But like I said, he just wanted to know if everything but raid gear was second best and I answered him.  That's all.

You should keep reading the posts after your quote before answering you know... I did say that raids are harder because they take more time and organisation, not player skill. But, that's the 'game' we are playing. The time it takes and organisation are a part of the game. That's like saying civilization could never be hard because all you have to do is organise things properly.

I also explain later why multiple golden paths won't change anything. The investment required to get the best gear has to be the same across all methods, if it wasn't then those who like raiding have a right to complain. Raiding would hardly be worth it if you could get it by doing easier stuff. If you remove raiding then something else becomes the thing you do to get the best gear and another group of players could complain about that if it's something they don't like to do.

You are not thinking about the bigger picture.

They can remove raiding altogether or make raids as easy as Dungeons and getting planar rewards.. that'd make me happy cos I don't raid.  But it would also make some other people unhappy and the game would get bashed for being even easier.

It's an even bigger raid game than WoW...

Sure you can do other things but you would be considered a second class citizen. 

I don't know about you but I dont like being looked down upon in a game. 

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Originally posted by Z3R01

Sure you can do other things but you would be considered a second class citizen. 

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thats in your head

Originally posted by Vannor

Originally posted by Torvaldr

I never said catering to anyone.  Don't put words in my mouth or play silly games.

You're right, you didn't. I apologise for that. But other people in the thread had said things along them lines, which is probably why I added it in my reply to you. I just shouldn't have directly quoted anyone.

If any of your gear is not top tier raid gear it is second best.  That's not an opinion and it was a direct answer to his question.

The highlighted orange part *is* your opinion.  My answer to him didn't go there, but I don't agree with you at all.  For one, raiding isn't really that hard other than the cat herding.  It's mostly disco dancing (jump, move, and dance around based on event conditions) and simon says (don't stand in the visual effect, only stay in the blue circle, don't let the lasers touch you, etc) with dps, hps, and mitigation checks.  Once you learn the pattern or system then you're golden.  They're only harder because there are more people that can cause failure.   Individual skill between master modes and raids really isn't any different.  Why should I lose out on a reward or drop because someone else made a  mistake.  Add in the idiotic politics and the few people who control what the rest of us get, and in no way do I think raiding deserves more or better.

Red bit: So they are harder? Thanks, I needed to twist your words around because I can't make my own argument stand on its own feet.

It's a poor reward system in my opinion.  Multiiple golden paths to the same quality rewards is a much better design.  Not only that but participating in any of them should all add to that progression.  But like I said, he just wanted to know if everything but raid gear was second best and I answered him.  That's all.

You should keep reading the posts after your quote before answering you know... I did say that raids are harder because they take more time and organisation, not player skill. But, that's the 'game' we are playing. The time it takes and organisation are a part of the game. That's like saying civilization could never be hard because all you have to do is organise things properly.

I also explain later why multiple golden paths won't change anything. The investment required to get the best gear has to be the same across all methods, if it wasn't then those who like raiding have a right to complain. Raiding would hardly be worth it if you could get it by doing easier stuff. If you remove raiding then something else becomes the thing you do to get the best gear and another group of players could complain about that if it's something they don't like to do.

You are not thinking about the bigger picture.

They can remove raiding altogether or make raids as easy as Dungeons and getting planar rewards.. that'd make me happy cos I don't raid.  But it would also make some other people unhappy and the game would get bashed for being even easier.

Please don't twist my words. I really hate that.  It's the second time I've asked this.

No, raids are not harder and I explained why with regards to master modes.  Can you say that master mode CR is easier than any raid?  It uses the exact same mechanics.  They are only considered harder (I hightlighted in red so it would be clear to you) because of the group size.  The whole time it takes to organize people doesn't deserve a special place on a pedestal.  It's bad game design and one of the mistakes Trion has made with rift.  Hartsman had a chance for a do-over after EQ2 and he blew it with raiding.

I also disagree about your assessment of golden paths.  If a content method can't survive on its own merits it doesn't deserve artificial life support (locking nice rewards behind it) to prop it up.  Survival of the fitest.

I am thinking exactly about the bigger picture, it's just that our visions are different.  Raiding panders to a much smaller cross section than any other play style.  Many of the raiders in my group preferred master modes because you could play with competent players and not waste 3 hours with scrubs.  Not only that but you could escape the hideous power plays and control freaks who like to control large groups of people for ego reasons.

You equate easy mode with raid removal.  Have you ever done master modes?  If you have then you're not being honest about ezmode dungeon rewards.

Originally posted by Foomerang

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Originally posted by Z3R01

Sure you can do other things but you would be considered a second class citizen. 

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thats in your head

Well, to be fair that is the question the OP asked.  It is in the heads of us who like to game for nice items.  The op wanted to know if the nicest items are all behind raid locks and that answer is yes.  From the perspective of "is this gear good enough for me to enjoy myself" then source stone and overland gear is great.  From the perspective of "where can I find the ultimate progression gear" then it's about raids and other gear doesn't measure up.

The wow comparison he made makes no sense to me though.  They seem about the same with their end game gear focus.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Vannor

/snip

Please don't twist my words. I really hate that.  It's the second time I've asked this.

No, raids are not harder and I explained why with regards to master modes.  Can you say that master mode CR is easier than any raid?  It uses the exact same mechanics.  They are only considered harder (I hightlighted in red so it would be clear to you) because of the group size.  The whole time it takes to organize people doesn't deserve a special place on a pedestal.  It's bad game design and one of the mistakes Trion has made with rift.  Hartsman had a chance for a do-over after EQ2 and he blew it with raiding.

I also disagree about your assessment of golden paths.  If a content method can't survive on its own merits it doesn't deserve artificial life support (locking nice rewards behind it) to prop it up.  Survival of the fitest.

I am thinking exactly about the bigger picture, it's just that our visions are different.  Raiding panders to a much smaller cross section than any other play style.  Many of the raiders in my group preferred master modes because you could play with competent players and not waste 3 hours with scrubs.  Not only that but you could escape the hideous power plays and control freaks who like to control large groups of people for ego reasons.

You equate easy mode with raid removal.  Have you ever done master modes?  If you have then you're not being honest about ezmode dungeon rewards.

lol I'm not twisting your words, you're really cynical. You clearly said they are harder. Doesn't matter why they are harder. If you can't say exactly what you mean, don't blame me. If you think by harder I meant the game difficulty, I didn't. Which is probably where we have our wires crossed. I could say that elite mode in CoD is only considered harder because the enemies have better AI and more hit points, yet they do the same thing to you. Doesn't matter what the only is.. the 'only' is the thing that makes it harder. Adding considered doesn't change anything.. if something isn't hard it is not considered hard. But for the sake of avoiding confusion.. lets change the word from hard to demanding (or something like that). You might not think the raids are harder than other content.. but they are more demanding. More demanding on your time and your patience. That is what I mean by it being harder.

Master dungeons are shorter and smaller than raids, they are less demanding. That makes them easier to approach, easier to organise, easier to get into and easier to finish if you only want to play for a set amount of time. Doing them may be about the same difficulty. Being 'able' to do them is easier. That aspect of raiding definately deserves strong consideration because that's the prime reason we don't to do them in the first place. To us it's the most important factor. If the time it takes to organise raids, the way they are organised and the time it takes to do them doesn't deserve a place on pedestal and should just be ignored, what is it about raids that makes you not want to do them?

I agree with what you said in blue, I think raids are rubbish and that they wouldn't survive on their own merits. I would always pick a dungeon run over a raid if the rewards were the same. That's me though. I don't know a game that has ever removed their raids or made their rewards worth less so we'd just be speculating about what would happen.

Originally posted by Vannor

lol I'm not twisting your words, you're really cynical. You clearly said they are harder. Doesn't matter why they are harder. If you can't say exactly what you mean, don't blame me. If you think by harder I meant the game difficulty, I didn't. Which is probably where we have our wires crossed. I could say that elite mode in CoD is only considered harder because the enemies have better AI and more hit points, yet they do the same thing to you. Doesn't matter what the only is.. the 'only' is the thing that makes it harder. Adding considered doesn't change anything.. if something isn't hard it is not considered hard. But for the sake of avoiding confusion.. lets change the word from hard to demanding (or something like that). You might not think the raids are harder than other content.. but they are more demanding. More demanding on your time and your patience. That is what I mean by it being harder.

Master dungeons are shorter and smaller than raids, they are less demanding. That makes them easier to approach, easier to organise, easier to get into and easier to finish if you only want to play for a set amount of time. Doing them may be about the same difficulty. Being 'able' to do them is easier. That aspect of raiding definately deserves strong consideration because that's the prime reason we don't to do them in the first place. To us it's the most important factor. If the time it takes to organise raids, the way they are organised and the time it takes to do them doesn't deserve a place on pedestal and should just be ignored, what is it about raids that makes you not want to do them?

I agree with what you said in blue, I think raids are rubbish and that they wouldn't survive on their own merits. I would always pick a dungeon run over a raid if the rewards were the same. That's me though. I don't know a game that has ever removed their raids or made their rewards worth less so we'd just be speculating about what would happen.

Ok, I corrected myself by adding that they are considered harder due to the number of people.  It's not something I consider a valid factor for difficulty and reward calculations.  I'll try and be much more explicit in the future.

Master mode CR is not shorter than either GSB, DH, or GP, especially with the challenges.  They can be more demanding and more difficult because you have only 5 people to cover it all and if any one person goes down it's much easier to wipe.

While larger raids can be difficult if more people don't know what they're doing they are actually easier if everyone does know the dance.  MM dungeons can just be brutal.  Maybe I should change my wording and say raids are easier only because more competent people give you more flex room.

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Originally posted by Torvaldr

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Originally posted by Foomerang

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Originally posted by Z3R01 Sure you can do other things but you would be considered a second class citizen. 

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thats in your head

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Well, to be fair that is the question the OP asked.  It is in the heads of us who like to game for nice items.  The op wanted to know if the nicest items are all behind raid locks and that answer is yes.  From the perspective of "is this gear good enough for me to enjoy myself" then source stone and overland gear is great.  From the perspective of "where can I find the ultimate progression gear" then it's about raids and other gear doesn't measure up.

The wow comparison he made makes no sense to me though.  They seem about the same with their end game gear focus.

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Theres a difference between wanting the nicest gear and being treated like a second class citizen. Thats what I was responding to.

Originally posted by Foomerang

 

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Originally posted by Torvaldr

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Originally posted by Foomerang

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Originally posted by Z3R01 Sure you can do other things but you would be considered a second class citizen. 

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thats in your head

---

Well, to be fair that is the question the OP asked.  It is in the heads of us who like to game for nice items.  The op wanted to know if the nicest items are all behind raid locks and that answer is yes.  From the perspective of "is this gear good enough for me to enjoy myself" then source stone and overland gear is great.  From the perspective of "where can I find the ultimate progression gear" then it's about raids and other gear doesn't measure up.

 

The wow comparison he made makes no sense to me though.  They seem about the same with their end game gear focus.

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Theres a difference between wanting the nicest gear and being treated like a second class citizen. Thats what I was responding to.

Rift is all about raiding, everything else is secondary. 

If you don't have the best items, if you arent in the high tier raid guilds you are nothing. 

Its not in my head, it's how progression based raid games have worked since EQ.

OP don't let these guys spin the BS. Rift = Raiding. If you dont want to raid find another game.

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Originally posted by Z3R01

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by Torvaldr

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Originally posted by Foomerang

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Originally posted by Z3R01 Sure you can do other things but you would be considered a second class citizen. 

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thats in your head

---

Well, to be fair that is the question the OP asked.  It is in the heads of us who like to game for nice items.  The op wanted to know if the nicest items are all behind raid locks and that answer is yes.  From the perspective of "is this gear good enough for me to enjoy myself" then source stone and overland gear is great.  From the perspective of "where can I find the ultimate progression gear" then it's about raids and other gear doesn't measure up.   The wow comparison he made makes no sense to me though.  They seem about the same with their end game gear focus.

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  Theres a difference between wanting the nicest gear and being treated like a second class citizen. Thats what I was responding to.

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Rift is all about raiding, everything else is secondary. 

If you don't have the best items, if you arent in the high tier raid guilds you are nothing. 

Its not in my head, it's how progression based raid games have worked since EQ.

 

OP don't let these guys spin the BS. Rift = Raiding. If you dont want to raid find another game.

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Not sure what the agenda is, but thats simply not true. I dont raid. I dont even do dungeons anymore. I have more things to do in rift than most other current themeparks. Game isnt raid or die. That is a fact.

Originally posted by Foomerang

 

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Originally posted by Z3R01

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by Torvaldr

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Originally posted by Foomerang

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Originally posted by Z3R01 Sure you can do other things but you would be considered a second class citizen. 

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thats in your head

---

Well, to be fair that is the question the OP asked.  It is in the heads of us who like to game for nice items.  The op wanted to know if the nicest items are all behind raid locks and that answer is yes.  From the perspective of "is this gear good enough for me to enjoy myself" then source stone and overland gear is great.  From the perspective of "where can I find the ultimate progression gear" then it's about raids and other gear doesn't measure up.   The wow comparison he made makes no sense to me though.  They seem about the same with their end game gear focus.

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  Theres a difference between wanting the nicest gear and being treated like a second class citizen. Thats what I was responding to.

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Rift is all about raiding, everything else is secondary. 

 

If you don't have the best items, if you arent in the high tier raid guilds you are nothing. 

Its not in my head, it's how progression based raid games have worked since EQ.

 

OP don't let these guys spin the BS. Rift = Raiding. If you dont want to raid find another game.

---

 

Not sure what the agenda is, but thats simply not true. I dont raid. I dont even do dungeons anymore. I have more things to do in rift than most other current themeparks. Game isnt raid or die. That is a fact.

It's not an agenda...

Its a fact that once you add a progression raid system in your game it becomes the focus.

You say you don't raid, fine but im pretty sure you have an underpowered character that many would consider worthless.

Maybe the OP could play like you? Who knows. Maybe he could play in a bubble and ignore the entire community around him. Maybe he would be happy doing half the DPs a raid tank does, maybe he's cool with getting booted out of groups because all you have is garbage dungeon gear on? 

We should ask him.

i would call the endgame of rift the most "diverse" endgame of today's theme-parks.

raids are a chunk of it but not the whole thing.  especially now that there's already afairly competitive community of dimension builders (at least on my server!)   there are also crafting. expert 5 person dungeons, world events, IA grinding and faction grinding.

personally i like to raid but only in small amounts... most 2 a week, and rift fits that bill nicely.

now if i could only level all the way from 52 to 60 >_<

Originally posted by Z3R01

Originally posted by Foomerang

 

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Originally posted by Z3R01

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by Torvaldr

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Originally posted by Foomerang

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Originally posted by Z3R01 Sure you can do other things but you would be considered a second class citizen. 

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thats in your head

---

Well, to be fair that is the question the OP asked.  It is in the heads of us who like to game for nice items.  The op wanted to know if the nicest items are all behind raid locks and that answer is yes.  From the perspective of "is this gear good enough for me to enjoy myself" then source stone and overland gear is great.  From the perspective of "where can I find the ultimate progression gear" then it's about raids and other gear doesn't measure up.   The wow comparison he made makes no sense to me though.  They seem about the same with their end game gear focus.

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  Theres a difference between wanting the nicest gear and being treated like a second class citizen. Thats what I was responding to.

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Rift is all about raiding, everything else is secondary. 

 

If you don't have the best items, if you arent in the high tier raid guilds you are nothing. 

Its not in my head, it's how progression based raid games have worked since EQ.

 

OP don't let these guys spin the BS. Rift = Raiding. If you dont want to raid find another game.

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Not sure what the agenda is, but thats simply not true. I dont raid. I dont even do dungeons anymore. I have more things to do in rift than most other current themeparks. Game isnt raid or die. That is a fact.

It's not an agenda...

Its a fact that once you add a progression raid system in your game it becomes the focus.

You say you don't raid, fine but im pretty sure you have an underpowered character that many would consider worthless.

Maybe the OP could play like you? Who knows. Maybe he could play in a bubble and ignore the entire community around him. Maybe he would be happy doing half the DPs a raid tank does, maybe he's cool with getting booted out of groups because all you have is garbage dungeon gear on? 

We should ask him.

unless things are very very different on your server z3ro1 you will not get kicked out of anything but a raid, for not having raid gear..  IE raid gear is progression to other raids.  i've never ever been kicked out of a 5 person group for not having raid gear.  once i had a smattering of raid gear and non raid i still never got kicked out of any groups (i never acquired full level 50 raid gear).

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Originally posted by Z3R01

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by Z3R01

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by Torvaldr

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Originally posted by Foomerang

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Originally posted by Z3R01 Sure you can do other things but you would be considered a second class citizen. 

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thats in your head

---

Well, to be fair that is the question the OP asked.  It is in the heads of us who like to game for nice items.  The op wanted to know if the nicest items are all behind raid locks and that answer is yes.  From the perspective of "is this gear good enough for me to enjoy myself" then source stone and overland gear is great.  From the perspective of "where can I find the ultimate progression gear" then it's about raids and other gear doesn't measure up.   The wow comparison he made makes no sense to me though.  They seem about the same with their end game gear focus.

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  Theres a difference between wanting the nicest gear and being treated like a second class citizen. Thats what I was responding to.

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Rift is all about raiding, everything else is secondary.    If you don't have the best items, if you arent in the high tier raid guilds you are nothing.  Its not in my head, it's how progression based raid games have worked since EQ.   OP don't let these guys spin the BS. Rift = Raiding. If you dont want to raid find another game.

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  Not sure what the agenda is, but thats simply not true. I dont raid. I dont even do dungeons anymore. I have more things to do in rift than most other current themeparks. Game isnt raid or die. That is a fact.

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It's not an agenda...

Its a fact that once you add a progression raid system in your game it becomes the focus.

You say you don't raid, fine but im pretty sure you have an underpowered character that many would consider worthless.

Maybe the OP could play like you? Who knows. Maybe he could play in a bubble and ignore the entire community around him. Maybe he would be happy doing half the DPs a raid tank does, maybe he's cool with getting booted out of groups because all you have is garbage dungeon gear on? 

We should ask him.

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You are wrong to assume people treat you like crap from not having best in slot. Especially since most raid gear is useless in pvp and if you stack 400+ hit rating going into a dungeon you are gimping ypuself

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Hartsman had a chance for a do-over after EQ2 and he blew it with raiding.

 

This statement is ridiculous on two levels.

First off, few who played EQ2 at the time Hartsman left (right after Kunark) would say he needed a 'do over'.  EoF/RoK era EQ2 is as good as MMORPGs get, and he may never get a game to that level again.

Second, raiding blows nothing.  They reallly dont spend as much dev time on it as people like to say, and its optional, if you dont like it dont do it.  If you are upset because you cant get the gear (which completely trivializes any non raid content anyway), well thats just being silly.  Its not a competition, and you have plenty of ways to improve your gear as it is.