Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by aladinversuk
i'd rather play in a F2P server rather than a subscribtion based one. having monthly sub fee could make you feel obligated to play the game else your money will just be wasted. in a f2p server, vip or premium services are optional and you can pick it up whenever you feel like it.

 

'wasted'?

How little would you actually have to play in a week to feel like £2.50 (or thereabouts) was 'wasted'? An hour? Two?

My thought is that if you are playing less than an hour a week in a MMORPG often enough to feel the burn of the 'waste' then maybe this genre isn't for you.

My opinion is that the sub offers amazing value on an ongoing basis and promotes better core game design and a more stable community, with less focus on manipulating you into spending, and a more even play field for play to achieve gamers.

I used to have 5 level 80's all in raid gear in WoW, I have 2 max level toons in SWTOR, and 1 max level toon in Rift in raid gear, a few LoTRO toons I miss playing, a handful of toons in EQ1 and more toons w/ house in EQ2 that I would like to play.. SO... Are you saying I should shell out $80+ a month to play my games, and not feel like I'm wasting part of it, or most of it?  Have you ever tried raiding in 5 different games at the same time?  Think about it?

 

I actually think that the F2P model is pretty destructive to these games on a number of levels and, overall, represent worse value (under the often illusion of 'choice').

 

PS. edit.. I would like to try out STO as well, but I'm wanting to pay a sub  for that either.. now we are up to $100 a month, and ArcheAge, NWN  and ES are just around the corner.. Should I add those 3 games to my $15 a month list as well?  Not sure about you, but I don't have $150 a month to waste on subscriptions..

Originally posted by CalmOceans

having monthly sub fee could make you feel obligated to play the game else your money will just be wasted

Buying a $15 sword in a cash shop wouldn't make you feel obligated to play?

It isn't any different, if you're buying things from a cash shop and don't play afterwards you wasted it too.

That is a point I want to expand on. The industry has discovered that a cash shop makes more then a sub. It's still nice to throw the sub in their if you can to scoop up every dollar (the idea of some level of special attention is all that sells a sub these days in a game that also has a cash shop).

But, make no mistake this is a trend. And when a trend dies, and what it is replaced with is usually tottaly unpredictable.

There are probably 3 games that set this trend...

- The first game is...wait for it...World of Warcraft. It created a desprate situation by being wildly successful. To the extreem that other MMO's were loosing players to WoW by the 10's, then the 100's, then 1000's!

- The second game is Runescape. When other games only had a concept of subscription based play. Runescape started as a free game (paid for by ads) and later to expand it's content added an optional subscription for more features. And, it was the only big MMO that was not only not taking a hit from WoW but still growing at a healthy pace. It had this weird thing called a "free to play model"!

- The third game is  Dungeons & Dragons Online. They were an intitial buy in with continued subscription games. But, they were falling hard. The MMO makers of the time probably considered runescapes thriving in the ever growing shadow of WoW as a fluke soon to be undone . But, Turbine saw it as D&D's last desperate act. And following suit in an attempt to survive went free to play. And, it worked! Core Players who stayed through the mass exodus sure were not happy about it. But...they slowly saw a return in players that saved their game.

Since then it has been a struggle. The bulk of the industry is going with what works. And, others are trying to slide back into the subscription model (figuring if it can trend one way it can trend the other).

But, cashop free to play models work well for a few good reasons...

- People initially feel as if paying is completely optional. And to some extent it is. But often you will hit a low cealing, which is when they want small amount from you. Less then you would likely pay for a sub game. But, yeah...one purchase to make the entire game a lot easier. Just pay once and everything will be fine. Sounds like a great deal    . But, the amount of in game currency you can buy will almost always leave you with a little left over. Maybe not enough to make another great purchase from the cash shop but enough to get you more comfortable in making frequent small purchases.

- And that's when you get locked in to what I like to call, the open-subscription model. Pay what you want, when you want.  This is the most deviously clever thing in MMO's. When you pay them the amount you want from a range of in their own right seemingly fair choices you feel empowered to carve your own way. You feel, all the wiser when you make your carefully planed purchases. And then the cash shop updates ...And there is that one item...you can allllmmmost afford it. If only you had...yeah, just one more small purchase of cash shop money!

- This is too brilliant, it plays of the concept of putting someone at ease, presenting them with the devils deal, then waiting for them to come find you with their wallets open when they discover the catch and that they have no recourse but to repair it with more money. I have spoken to quite a few Players on various MMO's who claim some months upwards of $200.00 USD spent just to stay in the game.

While I am certain this will change form over the years it will never fully die. it's just to clever to kill. It preys on the worste kind of stupids, shopping addictions and gambling addictions (Play Aika online if you have a disposable income and would liek to see what I mean).

I can say one thing with 100% certainty, this will never be broken by a flat subscription model...and with relative certainty I can say the best way to halt this trend is with a better spin on it.

Originally posted by Helleri

But, the amount of in game currency you can buy will almost always leave you with a little left over. Maybe not enough to make another great purchase from the cash shop but enough to get you more comfortable in making frequent small purchases.

 

So you're saying they would let you buy 100 "coins" from the cash shop, and price items at 60 coins, which leaves you with 40, which would entice you to spend some more.

If that's true that's pretty clever.

Originally posted by Strycker

It really comes down to whether F2P buys total up to the revenue from a subscription model.

I don't know if that's a fair comparision. Since F2P is a la carte, they can offer far more for each playstyle. Comparing getting everything from the item store with a sub game is probably unrealistic. The pwoergamer is probably not interested in the line of cosmetic garb and the costumes fan probably couldn't care less about the plethora of 30-minute stat modifier. The sub game has to meter out what they can offer for each group. The F2P game can cater to each playstyle as far as revenue from that playstyle keeps making it profitable. The subscription expansion box is the best example of that. Aside from it completely negating the whole "I get everything for my 15 bucks" argument  that many use to support it, it is often a mandatory purchase, offering higher level content and new features that you will have no access to without the additional purchase.

If an expansion  for a sub game comes out that has one thing you want and 12 things you don't, you begrudgingly buy the expansion because without it you don't get that level cap increase or new dungeon or whatever it is that you wanted from it. In a F2P game, you'd only pay for that one item, which for most F2P systems would cost you far less than the cost of an expansion box.

Now figure in some of those other nasty facts that most people avoid like the initial box fee for most sub games and the fact that 80% or so of the F2P gamers never spend anything, and F2p is, for the majority of people, far less expensive than a subscription game.

 

In terms of feeling obligated to play because of the subscription model: Someone else put it perfectly; Wouldn't buying that $15 sword make you feel obligated as well?

As much as buying a hat at a ballgame makes me feel obligated to watch the whole game. I bought an armor skin for my GW2 character - doesn't make me feel have to play the game any longer than the game's ability to keep me entertained. That's the significant difference between F2P and subscription. In a sub, you pay 15 dollars for the month whether you use the product or not. You pay on the promise of future entertainment. For a lot of people, it creates a feeling of obligation because they already paid the money. In a F2P game the player does not spend money until they specifically want to purchase a certain item or service. More importantly, they do not spend money on things until they actually feel they want or need them. Now, whether marketing moves the dials anywhere in either of the two markets is a whole separate topic, but niether side is an innocent lamb in that regard. ;)  

 

On immersion: Either you haven't been immersed in an MMO yet (Understandably because MMO's are becoming less immersive/not worlds, blah blah - won't get into that argument) but Cash Shops certaintly aren't helping. Recently, TOR comes to mind, I logged in and couldn't even have access to a third hotbar without paying. Applies to all F2P MMO's I've played, perhaps you adapt to it eventually, but the lure is always lingering somewhere (And it has to be for revenue). By the way, not necessarily directly through your UI.

TOR's hotbars are an exception, not the rule. It's also an example where something players once had was taken from them in the switch. If TOR came out with the standard hotbar and allowed people to buy additional slots, it would have been a non-issue. perception is key and there are myriad examples throughout MMOs of that. 

Also "I have less slots than before. It breaks the immersion" is a leap in logic I have trouble following, but I do not now nor ever had any affinity for TOR so maybe it's just a TOR thing I don't get. 

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Helleri

But, the amount of in game currency you can buy will almost always leave you with a little left over. Maybe not enough to make another great purchase from the cash shop but enough to get you more comfortable in making frequent small purchases.

So you're saying they would let you buy 100 "coins" from the cash shop, and price items at 60 coins, which leaves you with 40, which would entice you to spend some more.

If that's true that's pretty clever.

It'slike that for any form of gift certificate or pre-paid currency. MMOs, retail stores, phone cards, electronic/hobby stores. The value of the cards are always slightly higher than average purchase tiers.

Originally posted by Helleri
[lots of speculation and misinformation stated as fact]

What's disenchanting is you have a few good points in there, but it's lost in the sea of made up nonsense to support it.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Strycker

This will be a short, little post/rant.

Something that has been bugging me the last year or two in the industry is the freemium and B2P model taking off. This is my personal opinion: I think their downright awful (Freemium more than B2P). Yet this isn't the part that really makes me boil, but this huge populatiuon of people popping up stating that it's a A) Barrier of entry and B) Any "sub game" (mentioned almost as a blasphemous term these days) will result in failure in an adjusting market.

I'm not going to sit here and make a pros and cons list of each BUT;

When I pay my $15 a month I:

- Don't have to actively be reminded I'm spending money on a game regularly (And certaintly not in seperate installments every week).

- KNOW that I'll have access to ALL the current  and upcoming content without having to do a damn thing.

- My immersion stays intact without seeing: "You have to spend X to unlock Hotbar 2 or Bagslot 6".

- In terms of barrier to entry: There's trials for just about every MMO, even free clients to level X. Hell, in RIft's example, buying the game is cheaper for the first month than paying the sub would be!

- It's FIFTEEN dollars a month; I know people are from different incomes, areas, etc , but comeon here. When I was 14 I could put aside fifteen dollars a month for an MMO, and now that I'm a broke college student fending for myself - I'm still capable and happily willing to put aside fifteen dollars for a vice that offers hundreds of more hours and more variety than most.

That last point just leads me to believe that stereotypes revolving around gamers, specifically MMOers, is true:

We're fat, lazy, and broke kids who sit around all day jobless.

Hardy har har, Netflix should be freemium and you buy movies individually instead of being charged 7.99-14.99 a month!

You don't quite understand 'barrier to entry'.

Every step in the funnel toward getting a person into the game is a barrier to entry. One of the reasons many subscription games moved the credit card info off the free trial was because that, too, was a barrier to entry.  It was another step in the process of getting into the game. For most remaining subscription MMOs, the entire trial signup process has even been reduced to one single page (ex: WOW, EVE) to reduce the steps along the way to get people into the game. The barrier isn't the amount of money, rather the extra step and extra decision in that process (for either box fee or subscription fee) when trying the game. It does not refer to monthly cost or financial ability to handle ongoing payments.

For the other points, it's rather clear you don't have any interest in an answer other than RAWR UR RIGHT RAWR, so I won't suffer you through any counterpoints on them.

 

Well, in truth, you don't have any other counterpoints since most of what he wrote is his personal preference which of course isn't universally shared with others. In his own mind, he is generally right.

I'll go with the theory that F2P/B2P is generally  favored more by people who want to play a broader spectrum of MMOs/games (and more intermitently )while subs are more acceptable to MMORPG "purists" such as myself who rarely plays more than one title at a time. (and is willing to stick to that one title for months if not years)

Neither approach is wrong, and a smart  publisher would offer both options and cater to all types of buyers.

The way i see things is very simple... i'm paying for entertainment, let me explain. For example, when i go to the cinema in my country i usually spend around 10 euros f(movie, popcorn, etc), in one night. When i pay a monthly fee for MMO's i have entertainment for 30 days, if you do the math it will be a very small amount per day. This example could be applied to other things just use our imagination.

And yes i prefer to pay a monthly fee because i've had terrible experience with F2P & B2P games. Normaly you have better CS, you aren't constantly reminded that you have to unlock or buy  X or Y feature in order to continue playing or improving your experience.

I understand the people who don't want to pay for a monthly fee, i truly do, but please stick to your ideals. I know some guys which are truly annoying, they are constantly saying things like  "paying monthly fees is dumb" yet they've played several monthly fee games and some even bought games at launch and never installed them. Hilarious i know.

I am not oppsed to any of the models as such. It all comes down to fairness. If I am given a fair deal, I am happy.

EVE gives me a good deal.

 * The P2P model works in the favor of the game. In a shared competitive world limiting players from content is balance and emersion breaking.

 * Expansions are included

 * Good intial purchase price

Dungeons & Dragons Online give me a good deal.

  * The F2P model fits nicely to its heavily instanced model. This is mostly comparable to normal multiplayer games, with an advanced lobby and item trading system. Another comparison is DLC for a single player game.

  * Pricing on most options & items are fair

  * I can play when i want to. It does not matter if I burn out on the game, as I own the content, and can return to it when I like without additional cost.

Other game of notice:

RIFT: + Good initial purchase price, - Payed expansions

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by aladinversuk
i'd rather play in a F2P server rather than a subscribtion based one. having monthly sub fee could make you feel obligated to play the game else your money will just be wasted. in a f2p server, vip or premium services are optional and you can pick it up whenever you feel like it.

 

'wasted'?

How little would you actually have to play in a week to feel like £2.50 (or thereabouts) was 'wasted'? An hour? Two?

My thought is that if you are playing less than an hour a week in a MMORPG often enough to feel the burn of the 'waste' then maybe this genre isn't for you.

My opinion is that the sub offers amazing value on an ongoing basis and promotes better core game design and a more stable community, with less focus on manipulating you into spending, and a more even play field for play to achieve gamers.

I used to have 5 level 80's all in raid gear in WoW, I have 2 max level toons in SWTOR, and 1 max level toon in Rift in raid gear, a few LoTRO toons I miss playing, a handful of toons in EQ1 and more toons w/ house in EQ2 that I would like to play.. SO... Are you saying I should shell out $80+ a month to play my games, and not feel like I'm wasting part of it, or most of it?  Have you ever tried raiding in 5 different games at the same time?  Think about it?

I actually think that the F2P model is pretty destructive to these games on a number of levels and, overall, represent worse value (under the often illusion of 'choice').

PS. edit.. I would like to try out STO as well, but I'm wanting to pay a sub  for that either.. now we are up to $100 a month, and ArcheAge, NWN  and ES are just around the corner.. Should I add those 3 games to my $15 a month list as well?  Not sure about you, but I don't have $150 a month to waste on subscriptions..

Questions before I answer...

Are you saying, honestly, that you really need to play all these games concurrently? Really? How many do you play at once right now and which ones are they?

Why did you choose these sub games to play rather then the tons of F2P ones out there, taking your play needs into account and all?

How long do you spend in each title? Also, how much do you think that it would cost you to unlock the ability to fully access high level/ raid play in these games under a cash shop?

Please be honest rather then fib to support a point. I am just trying to get a clear picture of your true play habits rather then a lot of 'used to's and 'want to's.

Are you saying that the main benefit to F2P is that it allows a handful of players to play 5+ MMORPGs for maybe 3 hours a week each?

May free to play die a horrible death.

PS. To the person who said Eve had laid off 20% of it's staff as an indicator of it doing badly. Please learn to research your facts properly. CCP laid of 20% of its staff because it was dealing with the development of three different MMO's at once - all paid for by their SUBSCRIPTION based game Eve Online. They were finding it just a little bit expensive and laid off a large portion of their World of Darkness development team, they back burnered it, scaled it down some, and are focusing on getting their second MMO out the gate.

I one respect though I do think the P2P model haven a potential inherent problem.

Personally at least I am the type that only actively play one p2p MMO at the time. (I might have multiple subs to that game, but that is another story.) So in short for a new P2P title to make money on me another have to suffer. And I hardly think I am alone here.

So I can see why the publishers want to move to a model taht is more B2P like, be course history shows we are more likely to pay larger sums for that type of game when viewed on a per month basis.

Generally speaking MMORPGs were designed to be an immersive experience that you just sat down and felt obligated to sub because of the intriguing content and social structure of the game. The problem people are having (exaggerated by the guy above me who mentioned $150 sub fees) is that people have no attention span, they want to try everything at once all the time rather than sit down with a group of friends and commit to something (I think people value their spare time far more than it's worth). That's why F2P will reign for quite a while, people can just easily digest content in a deriative experience that isn't meant to last a long time and then hop to the next game, dropping $20 for some classes/bagslots ect to get themselves comfortable and then jump to the next bandwagon with no feeling of commitment.

I don't think it has to do with a barrier of entry, it has to do with the fact that the market is just fully saturated. If there was like 10 MMOs I think every gamer could find one that appealed to them and have no problem subbing to it, but there are hundreds, and more being advertised and released every week. People can't commit to a game when there's 10 more that appeal to them right around the corner, you want to try those as well and feel obligated to stick with the one you paid for and have a subscription to.

I agree with the OP, I vastly prefer sub based games. I like the feeling that I get all of the content, don't get advertisements all over my UI, and can focus on the world I'm involved in and the interactions with players moreso than opening up a browser to unlock more bag slots ect. I also tend to think that a F2P game has to have additional development attention shifted to it's cash-shop systems and balance, the games always feel more focused on what they can annoy you with to convince you to buy stuff moreso than focused on making an engaging title. They always feel cheap, nickle-and-dime style, it feels like greasy development to me. I'm an indie developer myself and I would prefer to charge a low sub-fee like Runescape did, than spend my time developing systems to convince people to buy mechanics off the store.

If you feel the need to game-hop every week, and can't find yourself commiting to an MMO world, then why is this genre for you?

Originally posted by Enerzeal

May free to play die a horrible death.

PS. To the person who said Eve had laid off 20% of it's staff as an indicator of it doing badly. Please learn to research your facts properly. CCP laid of 20% of its staff because it was dealing with the development of three different MMO's at once - all paid for by their SUBSCRIPTION based game Eve Online. They were finding it just a little bit expensive and laid off a large portion of their World of Darkness development team, they back burnered it, scaled it down some, and are focusing on getting their second MMO out the gate.

And just to refresh my memory, what is they monetization model on that second MMO?

:-p

Just kidding. I get your point.

Are we really so damn cheap that we have to have the subs argument every week?

Buy one less can of Mt. Dew a day--your gaming bill is paid! Huzzah.

any game with monthly fee has a cash shop now

so yeah go ahead pay your monthly plus some stuff you wanted but couldnt have in game because its in cash shop only

Originally posted by Tonin109

any game with monthly fee has a cash shop now

so yeah go ahead pay your monthly plus some stuff you wanted but couldnt have in game because its in cash shop only

There is one way this setup can make sense.  If the people that create items for the cash shop (cosmetic only, such as mounts, vanity pets, housing items, appearance items, etc) only have a job because of the cash shop.  What I mean is that the income brought in by the cash shop pays for thier dev time spent on creating cash shop items and that those developers and artists would not have a job with the company otherwise.  If this is legitimately the case, they are only adding to the game and if they did not provide cash shop items to purchase, the rest of the game would not receive any additional benefit (such as having more developers and artists to work on 'core game' features).

$0.30 a day is just too much!

/folds arms

Originally posted by Enerzeal

May free to play die a horrible death.

 

PS. To the person who said Eve had laid off 20% of it's staff as an indicator of it doing badly. Please learn to research your facts properly. CCP laid of 20% of its staff because it was dealing with the development of three different MMO's at once - all paid for by their SUBSCRIPTION based game Eve Online. They were finding it just a little bit expensive and laid off a large portion of their World of Darkness development team, they back burnered it, scaled it down some, and are focusing on getting their second MMO out the gate.

I didn't state why it laid off it's staff.  I simply stated it laid off 20% of it's staff.  Thats it.  Obviously it didn't have enough funds to conver the development of all three games.