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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » We dont want games - we want worlds.

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735 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17899

11/19/12 3:21:08 PM#221
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
 

I disagree. Player content normally is more complex to handle, challenging and random. AI content in mmos (comparatively with real single-player games) is dull, shallow, boring and repetitive. So, you will consider AI content funnier than player content only if you consider player content so hard to handle that it ceases to be funny to you.

 

 Funny? I have yet to play a game that telling joke is a core gameplay. AI is pretty effective (if the dev wants) in combat. In fact, Blizz has to tone down the difficulties of many games.

 

Do you really want to make guild (or corp or whatever) dramma (aka politics) as part of your gameplay?

Yes, please!

 Then we disagree. If you want drama to be your game, join a book club. I don't play games for guild (or any other) drama.

 

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17899

11/19/12 3:22:17 PM#222
Originally posted by lizardbones


This seems true to me. Sure, you can role play in any MMO, and you can create stories within the boundaries of the game, regardless of the game, but there is no MMORPG now that could be related to Legos, Lincoln Logs, Erector Sets or that other wooden toy with a name I can't remember right now.

Champions Online, Star Trek Online and the upcoming NeverWinter would be the closest to creating stories as game content that I can think of. That doesn't mean any of these games have more of a "World" versus a "Story" though. I'm reasonably sure that CO and STO both fall into the Game category, far more than the World category.

 

Exactly. You don't need a world to let people tell stories. Look back at text adventure and interactive fiction. Anyone can do it. A world has nothing to do with it.

Even the old Neverwinter allows users to make modules (and hence stories), and there is NO world.

  Trudge34

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 385

11/19/12 3:31:48 PM#223

I prefer a world that tells it's own story and the world is the focus. Not the individual player. If you need to feel like the special hero that saves everything there are plenty of other games and genres for that. I thought I read an article a while back that said that quite a few of the stories from EQ1 that the players passed around as lore were actually false. Kind of cool to have your own myths and legends in a game like that with so much more to do yet.

Think they could get back to that if they focused less on "storylines" and focused more on the lore and leave the rest to the playerbase. 

Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2

Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4309

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/19/12 3:45:53 PM#224
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Reklaw

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Regarding the whole players create their own story.  To me this is largely bs.  The stories that individuals tell in sandbox games including eve is, "I started at this time, I got these skills, I joined this clan and then repeated ad nauseum we attacked this outpost, we crafted this item, we attacked this outpost, we defended this outpost, we attacked this traveller..." That is not a story.  Or rather it may be the literal definition of story, "A statement of events" but there is nothing there that will entertain another person.  It is the weakest form of story there is. Now if the game let you create more of a backstory, and decide on a plot that can grow and change over time.  That may be interesting but as of today, no Sandboxes do not let you create a story.
Probebly people who experianced Lego/Playmobile/StarWars figurines/GIJoe's/Martel type of toy's understand how one may tell his/her own story as we did with our toy's back then. Now or atleast with the more virtual type of MMORPG we're back at our childhood again creating our own story's. Shame Themeparks don't allow for this freedom. And understandeble that those who grew up during mainstream internet might find it hard to graps players own created story in a MMORPG. So NO it's not BS, it's just that you might not have experianced playing with things where you needed to use your own imagination instead of being told what to do. Same with your view on EVE, I mean there are countless of story's told and experianced by players/corps. It's just that you might not get them. noting wrong with that really. But just don't say it's BS. I do agree with having the way a players play's or wants to tell a story would be awesome if it had real impact thru out the gameworld. But I stand that sandbox creates the oppertunity for a player to create his or her own story.
 I did play all those things.  But no you can't do that in MMO's.  With legos we could build anything we want.  With GIJoe we could use the action figures and use anythign eles in our room, backyard, forest, build to enhance that.  We could even alter the toys themselves, make them superheroes if we wanted.

 

We cannot do that in any MMO to date.  We have very very very limtied ability, if any to alter the world, rules, gameplay.  Everything we do is completely in our imagination and not in the world.  Lego's and action figures started in our imagination and we would translate that into the real world.  MMO's so far don't. 

What I stated about the player stories is exactly what goes on. Oh players might create their own backstory and roleplay something else but you do that in every game including WoW.  The only thing that goes in the gameworld is exactly what I stated, player craft, player attack, player defends.  That isn't a story.




This seems true to me. Sure, you can role play in any MMO, and you can create stories within the boundaries of the game, regardless of the game, but there is no MMORPG now that could be related to Legos, Lincoln Logs, Erector Sets or that other wooden toy with a name I can't remember right now.

Champions Online, Star Trek Online and the upcoming NeverWinter would be the closest to creating stories as game content that I can think of. That doesn't mean any of these games have more of a "World" versus a "Story" though. I'm reasonably sure that CO and STO both fall into the Game category, far more than the World category.

 

 I've been playing pretty extensively with Skyrims creation kit lately.  This is how we used to play with lego's.  They gave us the tools and we did whatever the heck we wanted.  When playing with transformers sometimes we would follow the Tv rules, other times we did things totally different and now the transformer changes into a space station instead of a truck.  MMO's don't let us do this.  So far they don't let us alter the world (most dont even have housing), they don't let significantly change our character, most don't let us create the quests or the enemy in the game world (some let us play an instanced quest we design).

In Skyrim I had an idea of how I wanted the character to look, his abilities, his house.  Then either I developed the mod for that or found another mod that let play that way.  Now I have created my own story and am playing it in the real world.

Skyrim lets me do all of that.  It would be nice if we could find a way to do that in MMO's, hard yes, and very difficult to stop abuse, and I doubt it is possible to the same extent Skyrim does it,  but it would still be nice.  That would then be a real sandbox, that would let me truely create my own story.

I would actually settle for a combination of types of games.  Real world housing (VG, Istaria, SWG) that can be built brick and board like EQ2, ATITD.  The inside could be instanced  I don't mind and then altered decorated (CoH, EQ2).  Have a skill system or a level system like Istaria where I can learn everything and change whenver I want.  Combine all this with abilities to have guild to guild war (not ffa pvp but a guild/faction/god system).  Then have a system where I can create some quests for people in the world to do, or that is needed for my house/city... and combine all this with a game with as many quests a EQ2 and Wow.  That would be game that literally lets me do almost anything I want.  I'd play it forever.

edit - combine other real world elements such as bridge building, finding a dungeon that has fallen apart and needs to be rebuilt...

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17899

11/19/12 4:14:48 PM#225
Originally posted by Trudge34

I prefer a world that tells it's own story and the world is the focus. Not the individual player. If you need to feel like the special hero that saves everything there are plenty of other games and genres for that. I thought I read an article a while back that said that quite a few of the stories from EQ1 that the players passed around as lore were actually false. Kind of cool to have your own myths and legends in a game like that with so much more to do yet.

Think they could get back to that if they focused less on "storylines" and focused more on the lore and leave the rest to the playerbase. 

Yeh. WOW has it. DDO has it. LOTRO has it. TOR has it. Plenty of MMORP"Games" have stories to make you the special hero.

 

  Pumuckl71

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/12
Posts: 127

11/19/12 4:18:39 PM#226

the story is as old as it gets

Sandboxers want them Parkdwellers to join their realm  to rape em  24/7. At least be so honest  and admit  it .

 

  CreepProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/10/09
Posts: 104

A figment of your imagination.

11/20/12 3:12:29 AM#227
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by CreepProphet
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Died? DCUO, LOTRO, DDO, and many not only are thriving, new content are released this year. How many sandbox MMOs release new content in 2012?

 

Sandbox games should not have to release new content as often as theme park games.

A sandbox game that has done it's job should give players the tools they need to enjoy gameplay and hopefully create their own content therefore becomming less and less reliant on developers to feed them new content endlessly.

Sandbox games with events similar to rifts, could keep the game interesting without introduction of a new zone or additional raiding content. Having player built defensible structures that could grow over time is another way to keep people logging in to invest in their own content, once again, not content designed by the developers. Letting people focus on trading or transporting goods, defending the transport from other players looking to loot the spoils. That creates constant game play that is not developer driven.

It's all a matter of how the game desingned. A good sandbox game shouldn't have to add another corner to the sandbox to keep people entertained, it should be giving them components with which they can build new swing sets, or the option to upgrade their shovels so they can build bigger sand castles. 

 

That is a cop-out. Look at Eve. How many expansion does it have?

Play a fantasy game without new monsters, items, and locale? And don't tell me let the users create those. 99.9% of user created content is crap. Nothing entertain better (for me) than professional produced stuff.

Users dont create AI characters, they create in-game politics, economics, military and social challenges.

So the devs still have to build locale, NPCs, skills, and a thousand things. Plus, user created politics, econ, mitiary & social challenges may not be fun & compeling.

Do you really want to make guild (or corp or whatever) dramma (aka politics) as part of your gameplay? I don't.

And all of this goes back to my original point:

Sandbox games should not have to release new content as often as theme park games.

Thank you for highlighting it.

Please note it says "should not have to". This does not mean that they shouldn't if they choose to. It just means that if a game has provided a sufficent framework for the players, constantly grinding out new content to keep players entertained should not be necessary.

Now let's get hypothetical. Let's say that a developer has designed a game where players can place their own defensive structures and create their own factions. 

  • The players have to go out into a hostile enviroment and find a place to set up a city for that faction.
  • The players have to obtain the necessary materials to build the city for the faction and provide structures necessary to make the city grow. 
  • The players CRAFT EVERYTHING, from the city walls to their hand guns.
  • The players have to defend that city from NPC incursions as well as PvP incursions.
  • The players have to recruit new talent, forge alliances, and perhapse even go to war to obtain more land and more resources.
  • The players have to repair their equipment
  • The players have to rebuild damage to their cities

All of this is "player driven" content. 

The Developers provided a game world, they provide the 3D assets and code in the abilty to place 3D assets. The Developers script Events that spawn incursions. The Developers set up harvesting systems that allow players to obtain required materials.

The rest is up to the players.

This requires only minimal updates, 

  • new events (incursions)
  • expanding the map if necessary to make more room for players to expand
  • new 3D assets players can use to expand their cities
  • adding new resources and craftable items that use the resources

This gives Developers MORE time to focus on generating new content. Content which will be powered through in a matter of hours leaving players thinking "well what do I do now?" Content also, which will most likely sit idle. 

Not a very savvy investment in time, money, or talent.

To me the sandbox method not only sounds fun, but it also sounds like a fairly cost effective method of providing a game to players.

Again I'll link William "Bill" Murphy's article on systems in games and how they add more depth to the game, hence making them more fun to play. It was posted on this website and is a very good read. 

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/6856/The-Problem-No-Ones-Talking-About.html/


Waiting on The Repopulation.

  CreepProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/10/09
Posts: 104

A figment of your imagination.

11/20/12 3:20:39 AM#228
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

 I did play all those things.  But no you can't do that in MMO's.  With legos we could build anything we want.  With GIJoe we could use the action figures and use anythign eles in our room, backyard, forest, build to enhance that.  We could even alter the toys themselves, make them superheroes if we wanted.

We cannot do that in any MMO to date.  We have very very very limtied ability, if any to alter the world, rules, gameplay.  Everything we do is completely in our imagination and not in the world.  Lego's and action figures started in our imagination and we would translate that into the real world.  MMO's so far don't. 

What I stated about the player stories is exactly what goes on. Oh players might create their own backstory and roleplay something else but you do that in every game including WoW.  The only thing that goes in the gameworld is exactly what I stated, player craft, player attack, player defends.  That isn't a story.

I think VengeSunsoar has it right.

With all the games that are on the market, it would be nice if a few more of them gave MMO gamers the ability to actually have an impact on the game world.

What is the point of battling the end boss when he respawns a few minutes later so the next group can have a go at him?

That has no impact on the game world. It just gives you an achievement. 

We want to be able to have an impact on the game world by essentially building up the game around us and feeling like we aren't just wandering heroes/grave robbers. But that we are part of an ever changing landscape.

Not just trapsing through everchanging content.


Waiting on The Repopulation.

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

11/20/12 4:07:48 AM#229
Originally posted by CreepProphet
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by CreepProphet
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Died? DCUO, LOTRO, DDO, and many not only are thriving, new content are released this year. How many sandbox MMOs release new content in 2012?

 

Sandbox games should not have to release new content as often as theme park games.

A sandbox game that has done it's job should give players the tools they need to enjoy gameplay and hopefully create their own content therefore becomming less and less reliant on developers to feed them new content endlessly.

Sandbox games with events similar to rifts, could keep the game interesting without introduction of a new zone or additional raiding content. Having player built defensible structures that could grow over time is another way to keep people logging in to invest in their own content, once again, not content designed by the developers. Letting people focus on trading or transporting goods, defending the transport from other players looking to loot the spoils. That creates constant game play that is not developer driven.

It's all a matter of how the game desingned. A good sandbox game shouldn't have to add another corner to the sandbox to keep people entertained, it should be giving them components with which they can build new swing sets, or the option to upgrade their shovels so they can build bigger sand castles. 

 

That is a cop-out. Look at Eve. How many expansion does it have?

Play a fantasy game without new monsters, items, and locale? And don't tell me let the users create those. 99.9% of user created content is crap. Nothing entertain better (for me) than professional produced stuff.

Users dont create AI characters, they create in-game politics, economics, military and social challenges.

So the devs still have to build locale, NPCs, skills, and a thousand things. Plus, user created politics, econ, mitiary & social challenges may not be fun & compeling.

Do you really want to make guild (or corp or whatever) dramma (aka politics) as part of your gameplay? I don't.

And all of this goes back to my original point:

Sandbox games should not have to release new content as often as theme park games.

Thank you for highlighting it.

Please note it says "should not have to". This does not mean that they shouldn't if they choose to. It just means that if a game has provided a sufficent framework for the players, constantly grinding out new content to keep players entertained should not be necessary.

Now let's get hypothetical. Let's say that a developer has designed a game where players can place their own defensive structures and create their own factions. 

  • The players have to go out into a hostile enviroment and find a place to set up a city for that faction.
  • The players have to obtain the necessary materials to build the city for the faction and provide structures necessary to make the city grow. 
  • The players CRAFT EVERYTHING, from the city walls to their hand guns.
  • The players have to defend that city from NPC incursions as well as PvP incursions.
  • The players have to recruit new talent, forge alliances, and perhapse even go to war to obtain more land and more resources.
  • The players have to repair their equipment
  • The players have to rebuild damage to their cities

All of this is "player driven" content. 

The Developers provided a game world, they provide the 3D assets and code in the abilty to place 3D assets. The Developers script Events that spawn incursions. The Developers set up harvesting systems that allow players to obtain required materials.

The rest is up to the players.

This requires only minimal updates, 

  • new events (incursions)
  • expanding the map if necessary to make more room for players to expand
  • new 3D assets players can use to expand their cities
  • adding new resources and craftable items that use the resources

This gives Developers MORE time to focus on generating new content. Content which will be powered through in a matter of hours leaving players thinking "well what do I do now?" Content also, which will most likely sit idle. 

Not a very savvy investment in time, money, or talent.

To me the sandbox method not only sounds fun, but it also sounds like a fairly cost effective method of providing a game to players.

Again I'll link William "Bill" Murphy's article on systems in games and how they add more depth to the game, hence making them more fun to play. It was posted on this website and is a very good read. 

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/6856/The-Problem-No-Ones-Talking-About.html/

There is absolutely no reason ALL of this (and I like it btw....) cannot sit right smack bang in the middle of a themepark world.

The long-held belief that you cannot have your cake and eat it is crapola.

Sandbox and Themepark can and should exist as an integrated whole - it just requires a developer with balls and a truly creative approach.

See my thread on;

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/369912/The-Ultimate-MMO.html

 

  CreepProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/10/09
Posts: 104

A figment of your imagination.

11/20/12 4:28:36 AM#230
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Originally posted by CreepProphet
...

There is absolutely no reason ALL of this (and I like it btw....) cannot sit right smack bang in the middle of a themepark world.

The long-held belief that you cannot have your cake and eat it is crapola.

Sandbox and Themepark can and should exist as an integrated whole - it just requires a developer with balls and a truly creative approach.

See my thread on;

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/369912/The-Ultimate-MMO.html

 

I agree. It is nice to have something else to do once you've ridden all the rides right?


Waiting on The Repopulation.

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1240

11/20/12 5:02:04 AM#231
Originally posted by Caliburn101

There is absolutely no reason ALL of this (and I like it btw....) cannot sit right smack bang in the middle of a themepark world.

The long-held belief that you cannot have your cake and eat it is crapola.

Sandbox and Themepark can and should exist as an integrated whole - it just requires a developer with balls and a truly creative approach.

See my thread on;

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/369912/The-Ultimate-MMO.html

 

First of all.. i could have posted this response in your thread, but i didnt want to derail it.

Theoretically you are right, you can mix a lot of ideas and approaches from both worlds into one game. But a few systems are contradicting.

Raid/Gear Loot/Gear progression vs. working ingame community/crafting gear

You cant have both. Either the best gear comes from Raids and you give your Game gear progression or the best/top class gear comes from crafting with no or limited gear progression comes from crafting, and withit supply and demand and a virtual economy arise.

A compromise may be, that you cut out the gear progression and give something else for Raids or that the gear from Raids will have a limit to it.. but i dont know if a lot of Raiders/themepark player would like it that way.

Vertical Progression/Gated content vs. more horizontal progression and flat content(flat vertical progression)

Progression is one key stone of rpg playing. But how you progress, and how you build up your world is vastly different. There are some good reasons for themeparks to have a huge vertical progression and gated content, and there are different reasons for it:

a) Your content is limited reusable anyway, not a lot lost if your gate your content on rails

b) gated content separated players, separated with it player density. Less server load/graphic load, or at least more controlled server/graphic load. (including zoning and/or phasing for more or less the same reasons, and the not so huge trade off in a theme park game

For further points i will quote Raph Koster: http://www.raphkoster.com/2005/12/22/do-levels-suck-part-ii/

 

Originally posted by Raph Koster, http://www.raphkoster.com/2005/12/22/do-levels-suck-part-ii/

Whether it’s intentional or not, there’s a host of powerful psychology effects that levels as currently implemented give, and it’s not all about Skinner Boxes:
  • The aforementioned random reinforcement: you don’t know exactly when you’ll skill up, so you keep doing whatever gave you a little bit of reward
  • What Robert Cialdini might call “the commitment fallacy” — once you have a few, you figure you’re in for the ride and may as well finish off the ladder. People don’t tend to like leaving things half-done.
  • Another powerful tool of influence: social validation. Levels are publicly displayed, and serve as a significant social marker of status. And humans are hardwired to seek status and validation.
  • The “gated community” effect. It’s been observed many many times that people want what they haven’t got. Just as clubs will intentionally create lines outside a door to drive traffic, and just as it’s a time-honored technique of retail and carnies to hire a claque of folks to make the business seem popular, exclusivity in online games is a powerful motivator. Levels effectively put content behind a velvet rope, which just makes us want to get inside.
  • Finally, one of the most compelling aspects of levels is the lure of power. Levels promise increments to a player’s health, their damage per second, and so on. People like feeling more powerful — it’s not social validation, it’s the game system itself giving them validation.

In a sandbox environment you will have problems with deep vertical progression and gated content. Because

a) Your world/content is thought to reuse, to change, to interact. It is not one time used content in comparsion to themepark games, with it you would lose a lot, if you would gate your content and separate your community.

b) Sandbox games live because of the "one world" feeling, if you separate your world through gated content/huge vertical progression you would lose this

Problem: Technical problem of a seamless world, and the technical problem of crowded hot spots. Both zoning and even more phasing/instancing will hurt your game a lot.(which would be one technical solution often used in themeparks)

Of course, you could make a compromise here, too. But in one way or the other you will hurt the one or the other part of your community.

Resume:

And there would be a few more points, which dont fit well together from themepark and sandbox gaming. So you have to sacrify one or the other thing. You can of course include a lot of the advantages of themeparks in sandboxes or the other way around, but in both cases you will lose something from the other spectrum.

But, ultimatly, there is no reason not to do it and let all boundaries behind you and just create something completely new, with the advantages of both worlds, which might be actually good. But you cant merge them and satify both to 100%.

Edit: missed the not in my Resume. And as reply to the post below, i agree with you. But as i said both will have to suffer some, you cant have everything from both without sacrifice something.

  CreepProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/10/09
Posts: 104

A figment of your imagination.

11/20/12 5:54:12 AM#232

I'm not sure if it is impossible to combine the two or not.

When it comes to gear, if players looted only craftable components required for better gear, they still killed the boss, but the crafting economy is still required to produce something with the components. This would be handy since the created item could be customized based on the desired skills of the player (instead of only one item dropping that only one person in the party can use).
 
Gated communities are still possible when you consider player created factions. Players have to choose where they wish to go, who they want to allign with, and make sure that their skills are in line with what the faction desires. You may have elite factions, you may have rogue factions. 
 
The technical limitations can also be overcome. If developers are creative enough to create in game streaming hot spots around the game world, you can still see what is going on in a major hot spot without having to be there and suffer the lag.
Also, giving players incentive to spread out over the map helps as well.
 
That is one of the main problems with Themepark games. There are only so many places TO go. Therefore there instancing, phasing, and other technologies are necessary to balance the technological demands.
 
If there were incentives for players to migrate out into the map and spread out the population, the technological demands would not be quite as heavy.

It's not so much a matter of whether the two types of games couldn't play well together, it's just a matter of finding a way to do it that works best with the technology, game design, and the player base.

Even Ralph points out that while levels do bring something to the game, there may well be ways to play a game without them. 

In this instance it would be a matter of players being willing to step outside their comfort zone and try something that isn't what they are used to. And a game with these aspects would be a big change from the standard MMO as the market currently sits.


Waiting on The Repopulation.

  CreepProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/10/09
Posts: 104

A figment of your imagination.

11/20/12 6:14:34 AM#233
Originally posted by Apraxis
 

Edit: missed the not in my Resume. And as reply to the post below, i agree with you. But as i said both will have to suffer some, you cant have everything from both without sacrifice something.

The creative part is taking out the parts that no one will miss. 


Waiting on The Repopulation.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17899

11/20/12 10:33:22 AM#234
Originally posted by CreepProphet

With all the games that are on the market, it would be nice if a few more of them gave MMO gamers the ability to actually have an impact on the game world.

What is the point of battling the end boss when he respawns a few minutes later so the next group can have a go at him?

That is very dangerous and open up for all sort of exploit, and griefing. What if some player build stuff just to block others' passage? There are million way of how this can go wrong. If you think bad behavior is bad now, wait till you give players more power to cause grief.

The point of killing end boss again and again? Fun in combat? Challenge? Progression?

You don't have to change the game world to have fun. Otherwise, WOW won't be so popular.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3423

11/20/12 1:59:13 PM#235
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by CreepProphet

With all the games that are on the market, it would be nice if a few more of them gave MMO gamers the ability to actually have an impact on the game world.

What is the point of battling the end boss when he respawns a few minutes later so the next group can have a go at him?

That is very dangerous and open up for all sort of exploit, and griefing. What if some player build stuff just to block others' passage? There are million way of how this can go wrong. If you think bad behavior is bad now, wait till you give players more power to cause grief.

The point of killing end boss again and again? Fun in combat? Challenge? Progression?

You don't have to change the game world to have fun. Otherwise, WOW won't be so popular.

I'm going to take a page out of the grouper's playbook and suggest that if you want to change the world, you should go play single-player games where you can change the world, at least on your own particular copy of the game.  The problem with MMOs is you have hundreds of thousands of people who are playing the same game at the same time as you in a common playspace.  It's not possible to allow hundreds of thousands of people to change the world in noticeable ways or to produce individual content so that every one of those hundreds of thousands of people kill different bosses or perform different tasks.  It's just not reasonable to expect.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7649

Logic be damned!

11/20/12 2:04:42 PM#236

Problem is that some people want to build worlds and some people want to destroy what others create.

MMORPG form of Minecraft would end up with 50% players building castles and monuments and exploring etc. and 50% players removing blocks in said castles and monuments to form penis shapes - and then burying your mine shaft entrance in gravel.

Just like what makes my Skyrim world so cool and great?

Because YOU'RE not in it!

*insert whomever as "YOU'RE"*

Now Playing: D3:RoS
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3195

Poacher killer.

11/20/12 2:18:58 PM#237
Originally posted by BadSpock

Problem is that some people want to build worlds and some people want to destroy what others create...

Hundreds of thousands of people have been doing just that In EVE for many years. It works very, very well, allowing PVE and PVP players to form the perfect symbiotic relationship. I played on both sides of the coin during my 6 years with that gem of game, so it's likely easier for me to comprehend how incredibly well CCP's vision delivers.

Understandbly, the game is not for everyone. However, there is no problem with such a system, assuming it is logically thought out and implemented properly. 

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

11/20/12 2:36:36 PM#238

I agree to the idea I want MMOs to be worlds, not theatre stages or mere theme parks. I dont mind MMOs being theme parks with quests, I mind they are ONLY games, ONLY theme parks and nothing more.

Yes, MMOs need a big dose of Ultima Online again!

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9938

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/20/12 2:39:57 PM#239


Originally posted by Cecropia

Originally posted by BadSpock Problem is that some people want to build worlds and some people want to destroy what others create...
Hundreds of thousands of people have been doing just that In EVE for many years. It works very, very well, allowing PVE and PVP players to form the perfect symbiotic relationship. I played on both sides of the coin during my 6 years with that gem of game, so it's likely easier for me to comprehend how incredibly well CCP's vision delivers.

Understandbly, the game is not for everyone. However, there is no problem with such a system, assuming it is logically thought out and implemented properly. 




There are some Minecraft servers that work in a similar manner. For Minecraft, the key is having devs who are involved and rules that make sense. You still have people who really just want to kill everyone or burn everything to the ground, but the rules make it part of the game's challenge, not part of the game's descent into chaos.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  karat76

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/22/06
Posts: 998

Greatest threat to society is letting casualties of puberty reproduce.

11/20/12 2:57:48 PM#240
Worlds would be great but unfortunately the best part of gaming worlds is also the worst the other players. A world game would definately need different server types to help spread the douche bags out.
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