Originally posted by Odinthedark1
It all comes down to community, people just arent the same as they used to be in mmo's....just like in reality in the old days you could welcome complete strangers into your home (a myth? im not sure...) but for the sake of the example now you gotta watch your back cause the dude in the trench coat next to you may be packing an uzi, or constantly feeling your pocket to make sure your wallet is still there...same in mmo's you used to be able to walk up to a stranger without a care in the world and make new friends on the spot....now its just meh...a community whether people realize it or not makes the game no matter how much people try to play solo they will always jump from mmo to mmo...sometimes just playing with RL friends doesnt work out cause like everyone else they got RL shit to deal with...so along with RL friends its always imperative to make virtual ones as well...

Even in RL that seems to be true, when I lived in the south of France I would be welcome everywhere because I wasn't from there, I was constantly asked if I needed anything and was invited into houses all the time when tracking through there.

Now, back in Germany, if I ask someone in the city here something, people wouldn't even respond most of the time because they're not like that.

People might say that's because life is slower in Southern France, and while that's true in a way, it's other things, it's the way people are. I am a stranger in my own city, while I'm a welcomed guest in a place I wasn't born.

The term "grind" has been used to death as a negative. But the thing is, every game out there has grind built into it whether people want to believe it or not. It exists in different forms because that's the whole point of a game. In forms such as MMOs questing or raiding to online games that require simply killing the most to win or even simple single player games that just takes time to do.

Everything from Pac-Man to Legend of Zelda to even shooters like DOOM or Counter-Strike. Every game has grind, even if it takes your time. And if you don't have time for it, then you shouldn't have bought it. Or at least make time.

Get rid of the grind completely and what would you end up with? A bad movie.

Originally posted by Rydeson
     I actually liked EQ's leveling grind pace as it was in the beginning.. I remember looking at the spellbook each time you had to med, and I remember my first hell level in Highkeep basement..  I miss static camps.. I'm so tired of having to run around from quest spot to quest spot.. I loved the EQ group mechanics and gameplay..  It was great that everyone had a role to play, besides the watered down "holy trinity" we are force fead..

We can hope that EQNext will solve our problems .. /wink SOE ..

We can hope ...

Originally posted by TheBigDRC

The term "grind" has been used to death as a negative. But the thing is, every game out there has grind built into it whether people want to believe it or not. It exists in different forms because that's the whole point of a game. In forms such as MMOs questing or raiding to online games that require simply killing the most to win or even simple single player games that just takes time to do.

Everything from Pac-Man to Legend of Zelda to even shooters like DOOM or Counter-Strike. Every game has grind, even if it takes your time. And if you don't have time for it, then you shouldn't have bought it. Or at least make time.

Get rid of the grind completely and what would you end up with? A bad movie.

Grind is a negative term for excessive repetition and certainly not all games have it. Let's take Doom as an example, every new map is different and every new map increases in size, amount of keycards required rises, introduce new monsters, new weapons and new scenarios (its a tarp!). That is very common for games. There is no grind to get that weapon or anything. Players discover them by playing through the game.

Your definition of grind is very odd.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by TheBigDRC

The term "grind" has been used to death as a negative. But the thing is, every game out there has grind built into it whether people want to believe it or not. It exists in different forms because that's the whole point of a game. In forms such as MMOs questing or raiding to online games that require simply killing the most to win or even simple single player games that just takes time to do.

Everything from Pac-Man to Legend of Zelda to even shooters like DOOM or Counter-Strike. Every game has grind, even if it takes your time. And if you don't have time for it, then you shouldn't have bought it. Or at least make time.

Get rid of the grind completely and what would you end up with? A bad movie.

Grind is a negative term for excessive repetition and certainly not all games have it. Let's take Doom as an example, every new map is different and every new map increases in size, amount of keycards required rises, introduce new monsters, new weapons and new scenarios (its a tarp!). That is very common for games. There is no grind to get that weapon or anything. Players discover them by playing through the game.

Your definition of grind is very odd.

My definition of grind is somewhat broad. I think it goes together with the common complaints I've seen linked to it: time and effort.

Meh, I was going through different write-ups for my post. I just settled with the short one.

For me, it depends if the combat is fun.

I remember EQ is very grindy and boring. You wait for static spawn, and kill them exactly the same way as before. Often the game is nothing but a chat-room because of the long wait. I am glad those days are over.

On the opposite spectrum, Diabo (1, 2 & 3) is also grindy (i mean, you do nothing but kill, kill and kill more) but very fun because you fight a lot of mobs, they can have different (random) abilties, and come at you in different ways.

Originally posted by cybertrucker

We are plaqued by more and more threads claiming this game is full Grind, or that game is a grind, or this game just introduced a Gear grind treadmill...

Seriously?  I mean SERIOUSLY??? These games from start to finish are all about you making a character, in a fantasy world, and ADVENTURING into those worlds. Adventuring in hopes of leveling up and finding gear to IMPROVE your characters. Yes we run some areas or dungeons mulitple times in hopes of getting that new shiney treasure. However if you find it so annoying that its just become a "GRIND" why do you bother to play?

Ohhhh to think back to the nights of adventure and FUN I had back in the days of Everquest 1. Pulling for my group in Lower GUK... Every night For MONTHS!!! You know what? I never thought of it as a "GRIND" I was having fun with friends i had made in a fantasy world, hoping maybe an item I might want like that fabled FBSS might drop. Or just hoping I wouldnt make that bad pull and wipe the group, or running to help another group in need that made that bad pull. Through it all though. I was there every night to have fun... Fun is what made the game NOT GRINDY

I guess after reading thread after thread after thread, of people whining and crying like little spoiled brats it makes me wonder why half the people on these forums or many others even play these games. Does no one play the games for fun these days? They seem to self absorbed with what they have to do to get their next piece of gear and how long it takes instead of just enjoying what they are doing along the way.

Rant off.

Amen brother.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by TheBigDRC

The term "grind" has been used to death as a negative. But the thing is, every game out there has grind built into it whether people want to believe it or not. It exists in different forms because that's the whole point of a game. In forms such as MMOs questing or raiding to online games that require simply killing the most to win or even simple single player games that just takes time to do.

Everything from Pac-Man to Legend of Zelda to even shooters like DOOM or Counter-Strike. Every game has grind, even if it takes your time. And if you don't have time for it, then you shouldn't have bought it. Or at least make time.

Get rid of the grind completely and what would you end up with? A bad movie.

Grind is a negative term for excessive repetition and certainly not all games have it. Let's take Doom as an example, every new map is different and every new map increases in size, amount of keycards required rises, introduce new monsters, new weapons and new scenarios (its a tarp!). That is very common for games. There is no grind to get that weapon or anything. Players discover them by playing through the game.

Your definition of grind is very odd.

Sigh...nearly everytime you present an example...it ISN'T an MMORPG.

I will agree that there could be a way to not make having to go to the same dungeon over and over and over and over just to get one or two items.

Real example with relevance...currently playing Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. I have a lvl 36 Sorcerer attempting to get gear in a dungeon known as VT to players. It involves acquiring runes, candles, and tomes...along with the ancient gear that drops there to create pretty nice gear. Started going there at level 32. I'm growing pretty sick of the place after going there so much, I know the whole dungeons layout, what named are where, what thier place holders are when not there....getting old.

Hell some dungeons you out level the gear before even acquiring it.

Wondering why can't the worlds be more varied? Drops be randomized and not localized to make it more unpredictable and exciting when something does drop? Make the dungeons more explorable with hidden passage ways, puzzles and boobytraps...

Sure, it may still allow for you to have to or want to repeat that dungeon...but for the fun of possibly discovering something new and not simply for a predetermined piece of gear you know is at that particular spot, or finding a new secret room with some new mobs, etc. Yes...eventually the secret rooms won't be secret anymore. But who's to say with weekly/bi-weekly patches these couldn't be changed up. IDK how difficult that may or may not be...but would be nice.

Grind is something subjective most of the times.  

What is grind for one person will be fun for other.  Same with other things like time-sink. For one person certain thing will be time-sink and for other will be fun or something that add to atmosphere.

There is very few things that can be objectively say it is a grind.

I can differentiate grind from gameplay.

One way is that grind is related to the random number generator.

Another way is that grind requires more than one of something.

The final way is that grinding is something that takes time whether that's because players have to split rewards or another factor. Grind asks for your time.

The problem with grinding is that it's used as a way to keep you logged in in the hopes that being logged in you will get bored enough to strike up conversations and they want you to then login to continue those conversations. That's when grind goes bad, you can tell when your conversations with other players is about the grind itself, then it's time to exit.

I think too that I see a lot of people who romanticize their favorite games by the grind they endured and the social aspect that helped them through it. They connect those other players as someone sharing their punishment as prisoners become friends with each other while together all the time.

I think we have all seen them stating something like this "Back in my day we worked hard for things, and we HAD to group to do them, those were the good old days of mmos. Oh, I remember when I finally got that drop I had wanted for so long and the whole group cheered for me".

Dig? They feed from each other.

Originally posted by greenreen

The problem with grinding is that it's used as a way to keep you logged in

 

 

WRONG!!! Grinding  does not keep me logged in to a game. I log on a game to have fun. There are things that take time to achieve

that may take time to complete. Especially in older games, as newer games tend to just drop stuff in your lap. However achieving thse things were a challenge not a grind! Already even in this thread people argue about to much GRIND. I just keep wondering  if people on these forums dislike the MMO gameplay style so much that all they do is whine a cry about it. Why bother playing?

I like some grinds and dislike others. In general I dislike forced grinds and love optional grinds because then I can choose if I want to do it rather then stop playing because of it.

Things like the Wintersaber Tiger grind for WoW or the Sword of Lost Light quest in Asheron's Call are awesome. Grinding for side crafting jobs is lots of fun to me.

But when the main path of progression becomes a grind, that is when the game gets boring.

Grind use to be:

Do all the avalible quests to get 10% a level.  Then stand there and kill mobs for hours or days gaining fractional XP gains and no worthwhile drops just so you can level up and get another few quests that will get you 10%.  You had nothing in game to do but level up so your time was spent on the same mob group per level trying to level up for really no reason...since there wasnt a real endgame.

Grind then became having to do something in order to get the stuff you want.  Doing stuff to get things in return, be it items or progression is the bases for all RPG game.  So these days the cries to remove grind are cries to remove RPG from mmorpgs.

This is why games are so shallow, boring, and easy.  Appealing to this crowd results in removing the genere from the genere if that makes sense.

The burning question for me is:  why do you guys even bother playing a mmoRPG to begin with if you hate the bases for the game mechanics?

I certainly do go playing FIFA and then complain how i cant grab the ball and run with it.  I feel that a lot of mmorpg gamers do exactly this.  Beg for the RPG to remove all its RPG aspects and mechanics so they can basically get a fantasy third person shooter thats open world.

The concept of grind changes based on your perspective.

I thought EQ1 was of the most grind heavy games I have ever played. I didn't think Asheron's Call was though.. yet I would circle the same dungeon for days killing Olthoi.

When we are enjoying the surroundings and the setting, the grind is easily ignored. That is the only way to not be grinding, to not be aware you are grinding.

All games are grinds. Everything is grind. Learning to cook? You're grinding. Eating a burger? It's a grind until you finish it. The only time it isn't grind, is when you arn't thinking about it being a grind. When you are thinking it's a grind, you really need to start thinking about why are doing it in the place. With a job the grind is worthwhile because of the payday. With a game though...?

Originally posted by Crunchy222

Do all the avalible quests to get 10% a level.  Then stand there and kill mobs for hours or days gaining fractional XP gains and no worthwhile drops just so you can level up and get another few quests that will get you 10%.  You had nothing in game to do but level up so your time was spent on the same mob group per level trying to level up for really no reason...since there wasnt a real endgame.

  

Well, you probably didnt mean it this way, but there is you problem right there.

This is essentailly "new age mmo design" in a nutshell, just put in "outdated" terms, the whole idea that there should be a overreaching activity that (or doing it) is the reward iself and that there should not be and is NOT ALLOWED to be any way bypass it.

A design for players that are able to repeat something for ages while being scared of thinking about it.

What we forget that older mmos often if not alwas featured other activities, that could speed up , bypass,  make the leveling process more profitable or just distract from it, sometimes even designed as a timesink that would ironically take more time to complete than the leveling itself.

And we would judge the game by those features.

But i agree, yo, we need more genre in the genre, dawg. :)

Flame on!

:)