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  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

 
OP  11/20/12 3:52:21 AM#1

Now I feel I have played enough MMOs and played them for long enough; sat on the forums and really looked at the major threads of the pros and cons repeatedly raised, it has become clear that no one MMO really 'gets it' completely.

I think this is because of one major failing.

A lack of understanding of the MMO community as a whole and no significant realisation that a truly holistic approach might be something worth trying.

Ask any MMO fan 'the things that make a great MMO' and you will expect to get the 'themepark' fans and the 'sandbox' fans, with some treading between the two.

This has created a set of polarised desires and expectations made worse by, frankly, the collective laziness of forums posters when referring to these positions with these very labels.

Faced with this 'either/or' appearance to their prospective customer base, it isn't really surprising game developers go one way or the other and face criticism if they try to shoehorn in some of the 'other side' into their game to hopefully capture a few more players.

What no-one seems to have seriously considered is making an MMO which caters for each 'side' by integrating both elements fully into an MMO.

I think this has been a mistake.

I think the first MMO to do it will run off wth 10+ million players who happily subscribe each month and make the owners of the game an ungodly amount of profit.

I think this should happen - I mean why not!?

There are two big fat flies in the ointment here however.

1. The investment necessary to make a massive themepark/sandbox game would be breathtaking and risky.

2. The integration of the two main MMO themes would take a paradigm shift in MMO design.

Investors don't tend to like either....

.... more fool them really - Blizzard are laughing all the way to the bank and have been for years because no-one has stepped up to the plate, broken the mold and taken the crown from them..... a crown they earned by being the first big thing to come along after the first generation MMOs started running out of steam.

A crown they hold on to by default - not by deserving it through an ever-evolving innovative approach they had when they started.

What I would like to do with this thread is collect from each repsondent the top 6 things they would highly prioritise in 'THEIR PERFECT MMO', without using the words 'sandbox' or 'themepark' to describe them.

I think there are patterns here, and I think they can be collated and collectively catered for.

Let's see!

  Lobotomist

Elite Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 4839

I got so much trouble on my mind Refuse to lose.

11/20/12 4:05:23 AM#2

1. Simulated world - doesnt mater how complex - but with systems realistic to given simulation.

2. Content that comes from interaction with worlds factions.

3. Posiblity to change the world trough interaction.

4. Inter player and inter community dependency.

5. Suply and demand based economy and posession.

6. Player character development that lets you be unique , specialised and needed in other player and world interaction.

 

All rest is up to imagination of developer.

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

 
OP  11/20/12 4:10:59 AM#3

Thanks for kicking the response thread off Lobotomist - much appreciated.

I like your broad brush suggestions - and agree with all of them in fact!

  Helleri

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 773

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”- Henry Ford

11/20/12 4:34:42 AM#4

If the history of the MMORPG tells us anything, it is that designing a game to be as good as it can be from the get go is a mistake. Because one thing the industry can never do is accurately predict how it will be recieved.

 

Like in UO they had a fairly intricate ecosystem with the launch, all carefully planned out. Most players never new about it. Because the players killed EVERYTHING within the first week. So, fast that their ecosystem just collapsed, their was no longer a food chain or reproduction. Infact it didn't even have time to get on a good roll...then the players complained that there was nothign left to kill. so they tossed in a standard respawn baddy system instead.

 

Developers go with what is tried and true becuase everytime they think they are going to wow the community with a massive amount of content... we blow through it in a month. when they think their new game will slowly gain a fair amount of popularity, we crash servers in a few days with the in-flux of new players. they think their MMO will explode onto the scene, we buy half the copies they thought we would and abandon it. Another good for instance is that f2p's make more money then sub games...turns out players will spend 3x as much when you nickle and dime them at their pace.

 

What players will do with what they are given is completely unpredictable. stepping out of the box has to be done in small incriments, that gives time to see the long term effects. Because the industry has learned that one thing if nothing else.

 

  Lobotomist

Elite Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 4839

I got so much trouble on my mind Refuse to lose.

11/20/12 5:41:11 AM#5

You forget that UO was pioneer in MMO space. And they trully didnt know what to expect or how to deal with things.

11 years later we do have a good idea.

  cosy

Newshound

Joined: 9/15/04
Posts: 3306

EvE Rules #491 you should never, ever attack Russians on winter months

11/20/12 5:47:22 AM#6

 


Originally posted by Lobotomist You forget that UO was pioneer in MMO space. And they trully didnt know what to expect or how to deal with things. 11 years later we do have a good idea.
 

 

after 11 yr later we get rules and guidelines for developing a mmo and that kills innovation

PD:EvEisNot4WoWkids
BestSigEver :P

  CreepProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/10/09
Posts: 104

A figment of your imagination.

11/20/12 6:20:35 AM#7

You may want to reword the post and highlight the bit about the 6 things people would want in their perfect MMO.  That might get the ball rolling.

  1. No levels - skill based - you do something, you get better at it. 
  2. No Gear requirements - you can change out elements of the gear to change stats, but the gear is just a shell
  3. No Classes - let me play based on whatever skills I want to lump together, if I nerf myself, that's my bad
  4. Crafting Economy - No more helmets on snakes, no buying guns from vendors. If I need it, I make it or I get the mats to someone who can. Also, multiple avenues for obtaining crafting materials.
  5. Player Driven Content - We raid if/when we want to, we choose to go to war or go explore. 
  6. Wide Open Spaces - Lots of roam to wander.

I hope this helps.


Waiting on The Repopulation.

  Torgrim

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 2171

11/20/12 7:40:33 AM#8
Originally posted by CreepProphet

You may want to reword the post and highlight the bit about the 6 things people would want in their perfect MMO.  That might get the ball rolling.

  1. No Classes - let me play based on whatever skills I want to lump together, if I nerf myself, that's my bad

 

This has to be done right from the start or someone will come up with the perfect build so most of the gamers are forced to use the same build to be able to compete which turns the game into a single "class" game.

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  Bunnyking

Novice Member

Joined: 6/28/10
Posts: 110

11/20/12 8:06:16 AM#9

1) EVERYTHING you do has to be a choice, not mandatory. i.e. play the way YOU want to. If you don't want to quest, you shouldn't have to. If you don't even want to do ANY combat, you should be able to. The world needs all sorts.

2) Exploration. Exploration. Exploration. A vast world without a real world map, so you only have a broad idea of the lay of the land. The world itself should be a gating mechanic of sorts.

3) No PvP forced upon me. That means no PKing out in the world (except for certain areas designated solely for pvp activities).

4) A crisp new setting. Sick of the same fantasy rehashing. Sick of lame/generic science fiction. Kinda sick of post-apocalyptic (extinction level events, disease, zombies, vampires) stuff, even though that's mainly due to television and movies and not gaming.

5) Awesome character creation. Doesn't matter whether this means different races with a plethora of breathtaking options or just 1 human race, but able to basically make any human you could imagine. But just make it good.

6) An everchanging world semi-permantly impacted by events/player actions. I say semi-permanent, because said changed should be reversable if realistically possible (i.e. replanting a whole forest that was chopped down, which would take some work and time, of course, but still, IS reversable).

 

Basically I imagine a perfect mash-up mmo something like this;

A huge world. At its center lie the inhabited areas. These are mapped out, known to explorers and the like and these areas will have quests, instances/dungeons and such. Towards one edge (east or west for instance, would be uncharted lands. These new unexplored areas are ripe for the taking and so there's many options there; pvp for control of certain key points/interesting places within these areas. Space to create player-run towns/keeps etc. Basically the new frontier, run solely by the players.

There could be another border of the known world where some great power lies or some ancient evil lurks or whatever and those borders would be in a constant state of war with big pvp battle, but also impacted by some mysterious npc faction.

Not really fleshed out, but something like that. 

  CreepProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/10/09
Posts: 104

A figment of your imagination.

11/20/12 8:10:23 AM#10
Originally posted by Torgrim
Originally posted by CreepProphet

You may want to reword the post and highlight the bit about the 6 things people would want in their perfect MMO.  That might get the ball rolling.

  1. No Classes - let me play based on whatever skills I want to lump together, if I nerf myself, that's my bad

 

This has to be done right from the start or someone will come up with the perfect build so most of the gamers are forced to use the same build to be able to compete which turns the game into a single "class" game.

I agree. 

Min/maxing always happens. Then comes the question of just how to accomplish it having skills used in a game without worrying about people being forced to use specific skills to set up the best build.

PS  +1 for BunnyKing


Waiting on The Repopulation.

  Sephastus

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/15/09
Posts: 409

11/20/12 8:42:03 AM#11

Misconception: All players are alike.

You can't make an MMO that all players will like. Unfortunately, this is what game companies want to do, because in the end, the ones who are funding it are interested in getting a return on their investment.

In a perfect world, game companies will dig their own niche, and stick to it, without trying to get more players from other types of games. That would mean, a focused PvP game that doesn't try to bring in elements of PvE, just to attact people. A long, hard and challenging MMO that doesn't have to water down its gameplay due to wanting to attact the pre-teens with 2 minute attention spans. Or a full story driven MMO where your decitions really do shape your progress and you can't take em back.

But this is an economy driven system... which means we will just get watered down garbage, that has to appeal to the greatest amount of people possible, just to make a buck.

... guess I am jaded >_>

  cosy

Newshound

Joined: 9/15/04
Posts: 3306

EvE Rules #491 you should never, ever attack Russians on winter months

11/20/12 9:14:33 AM#12


Originally posted by CreepProphet

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by CreepProphet You may want to reword the post and highlight the bit about the 6 things people would want in their perfect MMO.  That might get the ball rolling. [*] No Classes - let me play based on whatever skills I want to lump together, if I nerf myself, that's my bad

  This has to be done right from the start or someone will come up with the perfect build so most of the gamers are forced to use the same build to be able to compete which turns the game into a single "class" game.
I agree. 

Min/maxing always happens. Then comes the question of just how to accomplish it having skills used in a game without worrying about people being forced to use specific skills to set up the best build.

PS  +1 for BunnyKing



that did happen in darkfall mostly because the game resources was spread on the game map so there was no economic incentive to use other build that "best" build

PD:EvEisNot4WoWkids
BestSigEver :P

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/20/12 9:59:45 AM#13

Don't people tell us every day that "catering to the majority" is a mistake?

While simultaneously discussing a dozen or so threads about some really deeply different games?

A market that's too broad and varied to be covered this way (as corporations keep rediscovering).

Sorry Cali; gotta go with 'trying to be a jack of all trades means only that you master none of them."

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Venger

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/04
Posts: 1322

Help Fight Global Warming
Shut Your Mouth :D

11/20/12 11:10:40 AM#14
Originally posted by Caliburn101

A lack of understanding of the MMO community as a whole and no significant realisation that a truly holistic approach might be something worth trying.

 

We would need to agree on a understanding of ourselves before anyone else could begin to understand us.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20129

11/20/12 11:23:04 AM#15

There is no "ultimate" MMO. Players have different taste .. and even teh same player can have differnet taste at different times.

You can have good games .. and enjoy for it while. The good ones .. you play longer but ultimate all entertainment will get old and boring at some point.

 

  Timzilla

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 439

11/20/12 11:48:00 AM#16

I don't think a one size fits all is possible, even if it could be attractive. Which it can't be. I wouldn't touch a sand box game with a ten foot litter scooper. It's bad enough that I have to suffer crafting in my theme parks as it is. Keep the rest of the sims junk out of them. Sand boxes should be here, and theme parks over there the way god intended them to be.

  nethervoid

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/05
Posts: 531

11/20/12 11:58:40 AM#17

1. No classes / 1 Char per game - Skill based system - Skill cap so people cant be masters of everything - Can reset skills if you want to try something new

2. All items crafted by players - Monsters can amass loot by pillaging cities and ambushing merchants

3. A pretty harsh death penalty - Makes it more exciting

4. Player built / destroyed world - Allow players to build castles, cities, houses, dungeons to protect their loot - Allow players to pillage people's stashes, houses, castles, cities, dungeons - Bank in newb city only holds a very limited amount of stuff

5. Player driven NPCs - Players can hire guards, hire monsters, create monsters, etc that will do their bidding like guarding their castle / dungeon or raiding someone else's castle or city

6. Mostly slow travel world - Only dedicated mages should be able to fast travel - This helps create economy and territory control

nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|SWTOR]
13k subs YouTube Gaming channel

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20129

11/20/12 1:20:49 PM#18
Originally posted by nethervoid

1. No classes / 1 Char per game - Skill based system - Skill cap so people cant be masters of everything - Can reset skills if you want to try something new

2. All items crafted by players - Monsters can amass loot by pillaging cities and ambushing merchants

3. A pretty harsh death penalty - Makes it more exciting

4. Player built / destroyed world - Allow players to build castles, cities, houses, dungeons to protect their loot - Allow players to pillage people's stashes, houses, castles, cities, dungeons - Bank in newb city only holds a very limited amount of stuff

5. Player driven NPCs - Players can hire guards, hire monsters, create monsters, etc that will do their bidding like guarding their castle / dungeon or raiding someone else's castle or city

6. Mostly slow travel world - Only dedicated mages should be able to fast travel - This helps create economy and territory control

1) hard to balance. Impossible to not have cookie cutter builds after min-maxing post them online

2) How about those players who don't like crafting? Few want to play a carpenter, you know.

4) too much freedom to grief others. People are more likely to build stuff to block others, than to do it in a fantasy context.

5) That is not a bad idea .. and lots of games already have companions, pets, ....

6) No. Slow travel create boredom.

  Thorbrand

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 1217

11/20/12 1:23:42 PM#19
Originally posted by CreepProphet
Originally posted by Torgrim
Originally posted by CreepProphet

You may want to reword the post and highlight the bit about the 6 things people would want in their perfect MMO.  That might get the ball rolling.

  1. No Classes - let me play based on whatever skills I want to lump together, if I nerf myself, that's my bad

 

This has to be done right from the start or someone will come up with the perfect build so most of the gamers are forced to use the same build to be able to compete which turns the game into a single "class" game.

I agree. 

Min/maxing always happens. Then comes the question of just how to accomplish it having skills used in a game without worrying about people being forced to use specific skills to set up the best build.

PS  +1 for BunnyKing

If there is only one prefect build the game design is a fail. Just saying plenty have games before had many builds to go with and the true gamers never even came close to using a cookie cutter because they are usually the easiest not the best to play.

  nethervoid

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/05
Posts: 531

11/20/12 1:26:14 PM#20
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by nethervoid

1. No classes / 1 Char per game - Skill based system - Skill cap so people cant be masters of everything - Can reset skills if you want to try something new

2. All items crafted by players - Monsters can amass loot by pillaging cities and ambushing merchants

3. A pretty harsh death penalty - Makes it more exciting

4. Player built / destroyed world - Allow players to build castles, cities, houses, dungeons to protect their loot - Allow players to pillage people's stashes, houses, castles, cities, dungeons - Bank in newb city only holds a very limited amount of stuff

5. Player driven NPCs - Players can hire guards, hire monsters, create monsters, etc that will do their bidding like guarding their castle / dungeon or raiding someone else's castle or city

6. Mostly slow travel world - Only dedicated mages should be able to fast travel - This helps create economy and territory control

1) hard to balance. Impossible to not have cookie cutter builds after min-maxing post them online

2) How about those players who don't like crafting? Few want to play a carpenter, you know.

4) too much freedom to grief others. People are more likely to build stuff to block others, than to do it in a fantasy context.

5) That is not a bad idea .. and lots of games already have companions, pets, ....

6) No. Slow travel create boredom.

Not everyone would like this game. This is the game I would like to play.

nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|SWTOR]
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