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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Star Wars’ Stumble Points to Free, Open Future for Online Worlds

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23 posts found
  DeaconX

Novice Member

Joined: 2/08/05
Posts: 3072

Stand up for what you believe; Even if you stand alone.
-==X==-
SHH, my COMMON SENSE is tingling!

 
OP  11/19/12 8:14:20 AM#1

If there's one thing BioWare Austin/EA did to it's credit, it's exposing something that I and MANY others have been saying for a long time... and thankfully the big names are finally getting it:

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/11/future-of-mmo-games/

 

[mod edit - please do not copy articles in their entirety. excerpts are OK!]


Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.

BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.

  theblurch

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/01/10
Posts: 61

11/19/12 8:38:32 AM#2
I think it's only natural that payment plans change over time.  Does anyone remember when MMOs charged by the hour?

  DeaconX

Novice Member

Joined: 2/08/05
Posts: 3072

Stand up for what you believe; Even if you stand alone.
-==X==-
SHH, my COMMON SENSE is tingling!

 
OP  11/19/12 8:50:33 AM#3
Originally posted by theblurch
I think it's only natural that payment plans change over time.  Does anyone remember when MMOs charged by the hour?

Well I think this article isn't so much about the payment plans, but rather the design direction of MMO's and how it no longer pays to create a themepark MMO, try to keep up the content and expect to hold paying subsribers for a long time. :)


Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.

BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.

  SBE1

Novice Member

Joined: 6/05/06
Posts: 339

11/19/12 9:02:26 AM#4

I doubt we will see another $200-400 million MMO investment any time soon given the financial disaster of SWTOR.  I think themepark MMOs are going to have to change their financial strategy because once you run through the content, it's effectively over.  SWTOR failed on open world PvP (Ilum, anyone?), which is one of the best ways to maintain long-term subs in a themepark MMO.  The only other option is to hope and pray that the themepark MMO re-creates the subs that WoW had at its peak, a long-shot at best (which is what SWTOR's management hoped for). Funcom's multiple MMO themepark failures as well as the failure of DCUO with its arcade style combat system suggests that themeparks are just not working outside of WoW.

Sandbox MMOs have the potential to keep players subscribed for a very long time and thus the financial model works. The biggest downside to sandbox MMOs is that most require substantial number of players online (a chicken/egg problem) and usually involve a lot of PvP activity like Eve, which also turns off a lot of players.  

If you think about the optimistic point of view, we could see better sandbox MMOs in the future and fewer themeparks.  No one has really created a AAA-sandbox MMO in the last 5 years.

  Edeus

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/10
Posts: 513

11/19/12 10:00:33 AM#5

The Article: Thempark bad.  Sandbox goooooddd

 

They are only 8-10 months behind the curve of these forums...

Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent

  DeaconX

Novice Member

Joined: 2/08/05
Posts: 3072

Stand up for what you believe; Even if you stand alone.
-==X==-
SHH, my COMMON SENSE is tingling!

 
OP  11/19/12 10:03:17 AM#6
Originally posted by SBE1

 

If you think about the optimistic point of view, we could see better sandbox MMOs in the future and fewer themeparks.  No one has really created a AAA-sandbox MMO in the last 5 years.

Agreed, I think a lot of people are watching new titles like ArcheAge and Black Desert and there's a space one I forget the name of at the moment.  Let's hope they do a great job and sell well.

Personally, I'm still waiting for a truly great hybrid sandbox/themepark MMORPG with a strong toolset allowing the community to create content with a great system to ensure only the cream of the crop actually makes it into playable content of the game, essentially allowing the creative and talented members in the community to make sure players never run out of stuff to enjoy.


Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.

BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/19/12 10:05:02 AM#7
Nah it points to - ea never making another mmo.

They just can't make a mmo anymore.
Uo was good
E & b got scrapped
Daoc they didn't make they bought in
War had some promise but was badly mis managed and hampered by some bad "add more wow" design decisions.
Swtor is the worst big studio mmo ever built and also the most expensive.
  DeaconX

Novice Member

Joined: 2/08/05
Posts: 3072

Stand up for what you believe; Even if you stand alone.
-==X==-
SHH, my COMMON SENSE is tingling!

 
OP  11/19/12 10:06:40 AM#8
Originally posted by ShakyMo

E & b got scrapped
 

Still sad about that one... SO much potential... I almost wish they'd throw up a kickstarter for an E&B2


Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.

BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/19/12 10:07:35 AM#9
Whether people will fund big investment mmos again depends I think on how much of a success TESO is. And to a lesser degree gw2 & planetside 2 though they are more fairly big budget and less sub reliant.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19086

11/19/12 10:41:55 AM#10
Originally posted by theblurch
I think it's only natural that payment plans change over time.  Does anyone remember when MMOs charged by the hour?

Yes. I was playing Kingdom of Drakkar long time ago. It was $2 per hour. I have to limit myself to like 2 hours a day just not to break the bank.

  Thane

Elite Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1765

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

11/19/12 10:44:56 AM#11
Originally posted by theblurch
I think it's only natural that payment plans change over time.  Does anyone remember when MMOs charged by the hour?

i dont live in asia, sorry, i dont remember that happening to me  :)

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/19/12 10:48:16 AM#12
They still charge for in game time in Asia.

I wouldn't mind such a policy on western mmos, providing the price was fair. E.g you pay hourly, but if you say 3 hours per day it works out cheaper than sub. Seems a fairer model to me, the sub model casual and average players are subsidizing the hardcore / unemployed / content locusts, everyone pays the same money but the 12 hour a day guy gets way more dev attention with endgame development and what have you.
  Dahkot72

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 274

11/19/12 10:50:52 AM#13

Nice to see it , and this is one of the reason after seeing just how shallow a game SWTOR was , specifically the linearity of planet flowchart gameplay to the fact they couldn't even make Illum work at all , that I hoped as did many others SWTOR would fail.

And it has failed in EA's eyes , investors and financials etc. Now I'm hoping it fails in its FTP attempt after the initial rush and holidays are over.

The harder SWTOR fails the more it makes sure no publisher will spend 200-300 million on a mmorpg and pay more attention to voice acting cut scenes than making a virtual world for actual gameplay.

Whether it broke even or made a bit of money , EA expected , and Bioware SAID it would compete with WoW for sub numbers.

So yes , it has failed for the amount of money it was predicted to make them.

Good.

Maybe the next wave of mmorpg's will have day/night cycles , weather , etc. Living breathing worlds that can be pseduo amusement park/sandbox style with much more openness. I don't mind a hybrid.

SWTOR was going to an amusement park and being told which rides in which order you had to ride.

Again , EQ had day/night cycles and could make it rain and snow in 98.

SWTOR had voices for its $$$.

Good to see any press pointing out why EA/Bioware didn't get it.

 

 

  Ryukan

Novice Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 710

11/19/12 10:54:02 AM#14

Pay by the hour? Ouch...

On another note, anyone following The Repopulation? It sounds like it could be really good, but could end up being another Earthrise as well.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3700

11/19/12 2:13:08 PM#15
Originally posted by Ryukan

Pay by the hour? Ouch...

On another note, anyone following The Repopulation? It sounds like it could be really good, but could end up being another Earthrise as well.

 REPOP is the one I'm most interested in.

 

To me the question has never been "guided tour themepark" OR "world simulator." I rather see the good parts from both that work and people want to do incorporated into a game.

 

REPOP is a sandbox game with developers who are confident enough to try to be inclusive of different playstyles. From themeparks they have taken quests (called missions here) and kicked them up a notch by customizing them to the individual depending on what he/she has done before. And this isn't just a token, they seem to be spending a lot of time creating these "guided stories" so that youy can have fun following them if that's how you like to play.

 

They also have 2 established factions with room for players to create a third one that will be more like a coalition of many mini factions--complete with player-created cities, etc.

 

But back to SWTOR...

SWTOR didn't fail as a sub model MMO because they couldn't pump-out the content fast enough to sate the content locust as the article implies (nor is the sub model necessarily dead for that matter.) It just embraced the dated "leashed" WOW-like model with just some badly implemented token areas for player-created fun--namely Ilum. It was obvious to all of us who were there that they just tried to stem the flow by desperately creating more leashed content like flashpoints and daily quests, while totally ignoring the one area that could have generated some permanence and player-generated fun. They even publicly threw in the towel on Ilum and mumbled something about needing to redesign it...much later on.

 

They blew it because they presumed to tell us what we should like and didn't really pay attention to what we actually want to do. The only thing we can take from the failure of SWTOR is that  EA/Bioware blew it by choosing the "WOW in space" model. It turns out we're bored with that type of MMO...who knew? ... Oh wait, we did.

  mikecackle

Novice Member

Joined: 4/05/12
Posts: 157

I'm a player not a gamer.

11/19/12 5:34:13 PM#16
Originally posted by DeaconX

If there's one thing BioWare Austin/EA did to it's credit, it's exposing something that I and MANY others have been saying for a long time... and thankfully the big names are finally getting it:

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/11/future-of-mmo-games/

 

[mod edit - please do not copy articles in their entirety. excerpts are OK!]

Lol could hardly make it through this article.. Tells you the wrong people control and operate this industry and they have destroyed it...

The reason these games are declining so fast... is not because of lack of content.. its because OF THE CONTENT and how it is portrayed and with all due respect.. its complete crap....

So yeah... people arent bored, they are SICK OF CRAP...

The more Smedley shit i read, starts giving me bowel movements... this guy is truley clueless.. Good luck on PS2 tomorrow Smedley... about a week later everyone will be dumping that crap too

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16405

11/19/12 5:43:03 PM#17
Originally posted by theblurch
I think it's only natural that payment plans change over time.  Does anyone remember when MMOs charged by the hour?

Wow still does in China.

In fact I played ;eridian 59 in 1996 and it had monthly fees. I do remember something about UO charging it for a while though (but I might be wrong, never played it and it was a long time ago).

Hourly payment was never really standard anywhere and it still exist.

I really dont mind B2P and F2P games, but in this case EA saw the game doing a lot worse than expected and they decided it must be the payment model. It really isnt, the game needs a complete revamp but that will cost a lot of money that EA wont want to pay.

Really, payment model is not the important thing about MMOs, with good gameplay it is no problem with any model as long as people dont have to fork out more than 25 bucks a month. TOR just dont have enough multiplayer content and what it have isnt massive enough. And few people want their sidequests in cutscenes. Heck, I rather not have sidequests at all myself, but if I must I dont want to listen to another reason for me to kill 10 more rats.

  mikecackle

Novice Member

Joined: 4/05/12
Posts: 157

I'm a player not a gamer.

11/19/12 6:34:31 PM#18
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by theblurch
I think it's only natural that payment plans change over time.  Does anyone remember when MMOs charged by the hour?

Really, payment model is not the important thing about MMOs, with good gameplay it is no problem with any model as long as people dont have to fork out more than 25 bucks a month. TOR just dont have enough multiplayer content and what it have isnt massive enough. And few people want their sidequests in cutscenes. Heck, I rather not have sidequests at all myself, but if I must I dont want to listen to another reason for me to kill 10 more rats.

 Excellent quote, i don't want to listen to a reason of why to kill 10 rats.. .Exactly the problem in games.. The reason TO kill 10 rats should be portrayed, not a reason for..

If you had to kill 10 rats to GET a worthwhile thing you'd have fun killing 10 rats all day.. If you give meaningless gold and exp and rinse and repeat.. you have created boredom, not fun..

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

11/19/12 6:38:21 PM#19
The main reason why SWTOR belly flopped was because it had nothing new in it. Old game in new wrapping. Hardly makes it any better by copying another old game. Seriously. Make a new game!

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Searias

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/23/08
Posts: 663

11/19/12 7:22:17 PM#20
Originally posted by SBE1

I doubt we will see another $200-400 million MMO investment any time soon given the financial disaster of SWTOR.  I think themepark MMOs are going to have to change their financial strategy because once you run through the content, it's effectively over.  SWTOR failed on open world PvP (Ilum, anyone?), which is one of the best ways to maintain long-term subs in a themepark MMO.  The only other option is to hope and pray that the themepark MMO re-creates the subs that WoW had at its peak, a long-shot at best (which is what SWTOR's management hoped for). Funcom's multiple MMO themepark failures as well as the failure of DCUO with its arcade style combat system suggests that themeparks are just not working outside of WoW.

Sandbox MMOs have the potential to keep players subscribed for a very long time and thus the financial model works. The biggest downside to sandbox MMOs is that most require substantial number of players online (a chicken/egg problem) and usually involve a lot of PvP activity like Eve, which also turns off a lot of players.  

If you think about the optimistic point of view, we could see better sandbox MMOs in the future and fewer themeparks.  No one has really created a AAA-sandbox MMO in the last 5 years.

Doesn't elder scroll online have a big budget also?

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