Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Your right I first heard the terms themepark and sandbox way park in 2000 when I started EQ, so I assume they were around before 2000.

@ Yamota this list is not a debate as to what features make or not make a sandbox, or more specifically what you personally feel makes a sandbox, there is another thread for that.  I don't agree with all of Larsa's points about what is or is not a sandbox but that is besides the point.

This list is about the games that she feels match the requirements she posted on page 1.  Thats it.  And if all crafting materials are drops, then it is loot driven and doesn't make the list. 

Go to the other thread if you want to debate on what points make a sandbox.

In that case she should make it more clear that this is his personal list of games and not state that this is some sandbox list and then exclude one of the greatest sandboxes ever made. I mean wtf has combat oriented got to do with sandbox or not. Nothing.

 I think she has made it clear several times that it needs to satisfy the list up front. 

Consdering there is no universal definition of sandbox, and we all have our own opinion of what sandbox means, it should be pretty obvious this was her list. 

edit - and it was features/gameplay outside of combat.  IMO having other things besides combat and other things support activites besides combat is a defining feature of sandbox.

I played AC for 6 yrs.  If what you say (having other things besides combat) let me tell you, I had a 2 characters (1 on each of my accounts) who NEVER killed a single monster on their ways to max level.  1 was a maxed out (the first on Harvestgain) Full Tinker, the other was a maxed out Cook, Fletcher, Appraiser, Locksmith, Alchemist.  They didnt even have a combat skill other then the racial they began with

by definition AC is not only a full sandbox, but one of the best.  I could take a level 1 Character to Valley of Death (a popular level 100+ hunting area) and with my knowledge and skills of my friends get kills and XP.  I could also go on BOBO quest (which was a 150+ Tusker Island Quest) with my Level 1 char and tag along.  I could also just wander in any direction whatsoever I wanted and didnt even have to do a single quest to level (which I did with most of my Chars)

Relpying to say two things: 1) interesting topic and 2) thank you for the list of games.

Business slows down from November to early February, so I am looking to game a bit in addition to using my golf simulator.

I will check the games out.

Originally posted by Myrdynn

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Your right I first heard the terms themepark and sandbox way park in 2000 when I started EQ, so I assume they were around before 2000.

@ Yamota this list is not a debate as to what features make or not make a sandbox, or more specifically what you personally feel makes a sandbox, there is another thread for that.  I don't agree with all of Larsa's points about what is or is not a sandbox but that is besides the point.

This list is about the games that she feels match the requirements she posted on page 1.  Thats it.  And if all crafting materials are drops, then it is loot driven and doesn't make the list. 

Go to the other thread if you want to debate on what points make a sandbox.

In that case she should make it more clear that this is his personal list of games and not state that this is some sandbox list and then exclude one of the greatest sandboxes ever made. I mean wtf has combat oriented got to do with sandbox or not. Nothing.

 I think she has made it clear several times that it needs to satisfy the list up front. 

Consdering there is no universal definition of sandbox, and we all have our own opinion of what sandbox means, it should be pretty obvious this was her list. 

edit - and it was features/gameplay outside of combat.  IMO having other things besides combat and other things support activites besides combat is a defining feature of sandbox.

I played AC for 6 yrs.  If what you say (having other things besides combat) let me tell you, I had a 2 characters (1 on each of my accounts) who NEVER killed a single monster on their ways to max level.  1 was a maxed out (the first on Harvestgain) Full Tinker, the other was a maxed out Cook, Fletcher, Appraiser, Locksmith, Alchemist.  They didnt even have a combat skill other then the racial they began with

by definition AC is not only a full sandbox, but one of the best.  I could take a level 1 Character to Valley of Death (a popular level 100+ hunting area) and with my knowledge and skills of my friends get kills and XP.  I could also go on BOBO quest (which was a 150+ Tusker Island Quest) with my Level 1 char and tag along.  I could also just wander in any direction whatsoever I wanted and didnt even have to do a single quest to level (which I did with most of my Chars)

Yep. Someone who gets it. But I have realised it is not possible to convince people who haven't played the game that it is a sandbox. They look at the features and list of quests and then think it is a ThemePark. What a joke...

I think the only quests that I actually did for the first 3 yrs was the Focus Stone (which was a must as a crafter) and the Hollow Dagger (insert own weapon of choice here) which was a must for PVP

The rest of the time all I did was hunt, hunt, loot, hunt, explore, hunt, kill, explore.  There were no online maps back then either

I remember the run to Ayan at level 35 the first time.  It was our guilds safe zone, and we had multiple alliances protecting it from other alliances.  It usually entitled about 30 deaths on the run

Sorry, I didn't yet answer some posts from the last days and week. My apologies. I appreciate the input.

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Originally posted by Reklaw

 

... But I have one question: Why is FreeRealm on that list? perhaps the game has changed allot, but wasn't it mostly mini games that places you sort of out of the gameworld? And also more a lobby game? Do you now perhaps influence the ingame world with all the mini games the game has or had?

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Personally I didn't play FreeRealms, I can't play all the games on the list, just too many. The game has been suggested a few times by members here, and I'm convinced that the posters described the features correctly.

But you're right. on reading Loktofeit's post (#154) again I'm thinking the game doesn't tick enough of the boxes. Too many key features from the requirements list in the original post are missing:

- A non-instanced game world, no private instances for story mode or private dungeons (zones are okay if technically needed)
- Player-driven in-game economy, not a loot-driven economy, no bind-on-equip or bind-on acquire items
- In-depth resource system. A resource system is considered in-depth if items can be made from raw resources that influence the resulting item (either it's stats or it's appearance is okay)
- Player's ability to change aspects of the game world, either by being able to modify the physical game world or by being able to take ownership of structures in the game world

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Originally posted by RefMinor

 

Outer Empires
www.outer-empires.com is a 2D browser based Sci Fi sandbox. You are thrown in a galaxy with 20000 systems and you make your own way. You can research and make parts and sell to other players, create and destroy colonies, build stations, shoot people, create factions and alliances. It's a simplified version of EvE to describe it easily, definitely sandbox. The below is from their website: ...

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Thanks for the suggestion, RefMinor, I didn't know the game. A very impressive feature list, no doubt it's a sandbox. I will have a look at the game. Thanks again.

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Originally posted by khameleon

 

War Z is out monday (alpha and beta 31st).
Sandbox survival horror FPS MMO

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Thanks for the suggestion. I will consider War Z for the list once it's in open beta. I don't list games in closed testing.

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Originally posted by f0dell54

 

Ultima Online does have a cash shop. ...

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Thanks for the correction, You are right, I will modify the original post accordingly.

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Originally posted by grimgryphon

 

I didn't see Second Life on the list. That seems about as "sandboxy" as you can get.

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You are correct, no doubt it's sandboxy. But this list is about Sandbox MMORPGs and Second Life isn't a RPG, there is no character development, there are no character skills whatsoever. Linden Labs (the developers) don't call it an RPG too. That's why it's not on the list.

If I would list all things sandboxy and online this list would get 5 times as long as it is and maintaining it would become a full-time job, sorry. :)

[Edit: updated the OP. Removed Free Realms from the list, added cash-shop to Ultima Online.]

Originally posted by khameleon

War Z is out monday (alpha and beta 31st).

 

Sandbox survival horror FPS MMO

Sorry, I don't see how The War Z could be on a list of sandbox MMORPGs.

I have read-up on the game and didn't see any sandboxy features, it's not an MMO (population cap of 250 people on a server?) and it has few RPG elements.

amazing topic, thanks for updating it..that's exaxtly what I was looking for to find UO alternatives..still, nothing on the list good enough at the moment *grins*

I hope EQN or AE will be good enough to fit in this list when out.. ;)

Time for an update

Congratulations on your thread.

I agree with your criteries.

I think you are one of the remnants of the true MMORPGs.

The UO design philosophy school.

I however, cannot agree with

Fallen Earth

Critery it fails to satisfy: No effect on other players or on the world. 

Reason: It suffers from 2 diseases I call

World is Static

Players in a Bubble.

It features some "binary" towers/areas that groups can switch possession on and off. They are static. One group has it, or another one has it. That does not fullfill "cause effects on the world" by any stretch of the imagination.

It features Factions that hate each other, are in war, yet, the choice of being part of a Faction has no effect on whether or not players can start causing effect on other players of opposing Factions.

These flaws are so dramatic that I quit this game as soon as I realized their current design prevented me from drinking of the expected Sandbox Experience tm.

With that said, keep up the good work.

There will be deceivers trying to bury your thread. Trying to hide the truth about the only true MMORPGs. There is a strong lobby trying to dumb people down and forcing them these other "MMOs", even this very website is a core part of the problem. There are also paid people to push forward their "entertainment" as the standard. 90% of the player base never touched a true sandbox and never ever had the opportunity to experience it.

I'm glad this thread exists because there was a thread a couple of weeks ago where the poster claimed that there were 0 mmos for sandbox players to play, and implied that intelligent people played and discussed sandbox games.  Now we have a list of games that the intelligent poster doesn't know exist.

I'm enjoying Eve at the moment as my son got me hooked on it and I love the economic aspect of it.

I also think that sandbox

Economy design

Travel, Exploration design

Socialization design

Should be considered as criteries.

Just to mention some (of many sub designs of the above areas): Auction Houses, Fast Travel, Instantaneous Grouping are "inovations" that cause many side effects wich are antagonic in nature to the "Sandbox Experience" tm.

Each and many design "inovation" intended to fix particular issues, ended up destroying major aspects of what made the MMORPGs what they were and the experiences they provided.

Its like they added "globalization", "homogeneization" into design of MMORPGs. They also removed any political, administrative, juridic aspects as if attempting to literally dumb down people in real life through their game designs.

So players dont ultimatelly interact with games in any way that could enhance and make them perceive the main spheres of action a human being can take in its life:  CREATE, CONTROL, CHANGE, UNDERSTAND.  

We are mainly left with Obbey and Destroy aspects.

If someone made a MMORPG news/website/forum with the focus on the Sandbox games (old, current, upcomming) according to the OP criteria, gatekeeping it from all the garbage, I would be interested to lend my strenght.

Originally posted by Interesting

If someone made a MMORPG news/website/forum with the focus on the Sandbox games (old, current, upcomming) according to the OP criteria, gatekeeping it from all the garbage, I would be interested to lend my strenght.

http://www.sandboxer.org

Originally posted by Thorbrand
Well I believe there has been only two true MMORPG sandbox games AC and Xsyon the rest are missing to much in the game to be a sandbox with limits to development and your freedom. Not saying the others don't qualify but if you use what the OP says EQ would be the 3rd sandbox game, it had far more sandbox features than the rest listed. But EQ was not a themepark or a sandbox those terms where not used back than.

What features is EvE missing to not make it a sandbox?

Originally posted by niceguy3978

Originally posted by Thorbrand
Well I believe there has been only two true MMORPG sandbox games AC and Xsyon the rest are missing to much in the game to be a sandbox with limits to development and your freedom. Not saying the others don't qualify but if you use what the OP says EQ would be the 3rd sandbox game, it had far more sandbox features than the rest listed. But EQ was not a themepark or a sandbox those terms where not used back than.

What features is EvE missing to not make it a sandbox?

And EQ only made a few features on that list.  Open world, persistent, crafting.  Pretty much it and I wouldn't even consider crafting because every single item was crafted from loot drops. No real player customization (yes it had the skills that you put points into but max level increased with level), was a level based game, loot driven game, class driven game so all members of that class were identical, no way to alter the gameworld, no way to own the gameworld...

Btw the terms were used back then.

Originally posted by cybersrs
Xsyon have trial

Thanks for the correction, original post edited.