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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » Main reason why SWTOR flopped?

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201 posts found
  Deewe

Novice Member

Joined: 5/02/08
Posts: 1976

11/12/12 10:38:22 AM#181
Originally posted by Ahnog
Originally posted by Adders

DariusZP, you got it right.

I beta tested SWTOR and decided never to pay anything for it.

My brief summary of why it sucked goes:

  • Outdated and very disappointing graphics
  • A combat system that was as dull and anti-immersion as they come
  • Otherwise same-old, same-old, just with 'Star Wars' and 'Bioware' tacked on
Mind you, various other MMOs which have been released since have also been very disappointing for simple reasons, mainly due to Korean-style grindfest questing and/or tab-select-and-push-the-same-button-combat.
 
I've been playing computer games since 1979 and sometimes it feels as if developers have stopped trying.
 
But, nothing against Koreans, of course (except for the government in the North), you guys make kimchi and dol sot bi bim bap!

Walk a mile in a developer's shoes and you might not critisize them so.

Been there, done that.

 

Well apart a handful of designers I worked with, that think they know better than everyone what the players need, most are great and skilled people.

In fact too often the issue lies in the clueless producers and execs.

 

SWTOR is the apogee of this: being a few key designers made really wrong choices in terms of designs and the execs failed to both manage properly the studio and understand it was going wrong.

 

If you remember when Wow went live all studios were astonished someone could make an MMO with so few bugs (compared to the others at the time). During a post mortem Blizzard explained their success lied mainly in the following points:

  1. Doing runs in the office after 5PM  to kick the devs out, even against their will: it improved the quality of the code a lot.
  2. Working in strike team using am agile methodology.
  3. Quality & polish (the Blizzard way).
  AG-Vuk

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/26/04
Posts: 804

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
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11/12/12 12:24:51 PM#182

Really, it's very simple.  They built KotOR III and made a multi-player , slapped a poorly designed PvP system in place and to add insult to injury then added space combat on rails.

Pretty simple when you break it down. I liked KotOR games, but they don't make good mmo's. Conceptually they have a basis for a good game . Bioware half ass'ed. Simple.

  Souldrainer

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/06
Posts: 1878

11/12/12 8:01:18 PM#183
Originally posted by AG-Vuk

Really, it's very simple.  They built KotOR III and made a multi-player , slapped a poorly designed PvP system in place and to add insult to injury then added space combat on rails.

Pretty simple when you break it down. I liked KotOR games, but they don't make good mmo's. Conceptually they have a basis for a good game . Bioware half ass'ed. Simple.

 

If you think the PVP system was poorly designed, then you haven't done enough PVP. The mechanics are far more diverse than say, WoW or Guild Wars, for example.

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  User Deleted
11/12/12 8:08:17 PM#184

General reason I avoided it was because it seemed like it was a single player game dumbed down to be able to call itself an MMO without all the things that make an MMO fun.

Had they just made another single player KoToR and stuck with the d20 ruleset, I probably would've looked into buying it.

  postpwn

Novice Member

Joined: 8/10/09
Posts: 87

11/13/12 10:08:11 AM#185

I stayed away from this game for one reason:

 

 

The EA logo

  Mors.Magne

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1416

11/13/12 10:15:09 AM#186

I bought the Collector's Edition.

I so wanted this game to be addictive.

The biggest problem was the predictable NPC waves (1 weak + 1 strong), then (4 weak), then (boss fight) - rince and repeat infinate number of times.

 

I blame myself though for letting myself get carried away by my friend's excitement and hype.

  Mors.Magne

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1416

11/13/12 10:20:56 AM#187
Originally posted by dariuszp
Originally posted by Clawzon

The game had an excellent gamedeveloper in BioWare, it had economic power in EA and an outstanding IP in Star Wars!

But along the way something went wrong, very wrong! What?

Many things

- game is linear like hell

- game have so many instances that yo hardly play with someone else and groups are for 4 people only

- because short level range for areas (1 planet have 4 areas, there is 1 lvl per area and 4 levels per planet) it's hard to find party for long time

- no grup activities 

- no activities outside fighting and quests 

- no reason to go back to low lvl areas

- no reason to play after lvl 50, only grind is there for yet another pair of pants

- you reach max lvl in few weeks plaing 2-3 hours a day

- no reason to trade since in few weeks you reach items you can't trade anyway

-no reason to craft since after lvl 50 everything is better than what you can do

- retarded controls and gameplay

- boring fights (awesome button)

- stupid developers (op healing for a long time, nerfing operatives to just some lame mele class)

- boring quests (go and kill 10,20,40 mobs)

- boring class story

- avarage graphic

- poor performance ( i play tera, planetside 2 and few other games on full with 60fps while TOR was around 40 nad he looked ugly as hell)

- empty world (no reason to explore it unless there is a quest where you going)

- wow clone (everything is like in this old school mmo but worst) unfit for 2011

- worst f2p system ever (even slots are blocked, seriously ? :|)

- i have no desire to play this game even after it went free and it would be last game I pick up since there is Planetside 2 and Guild Wars 2 with no monthly fee.

 

Whole game is just bad. They were afraid of risk of doing some innovative and they failed.

 

Luckily I left before I experienced all of these things!

  FromHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1338

11/13/12 3:39:48 PM#188
Originally posted by postpwn

I stayed away from this game for one reason:

 

 

The EA logo

EA didn´t write the game design document, mate. /rolleyes

 

EA is a publisher. Bioware was supposed to have a clue how to make a successful game.

 

Doesn´t matter that Bioware is "owned" by EA. They are the ones who designed and programmed the game the way it is.

 

I entirely blame the leaders of Bioware: CEOs, game director, lead developers, executive producer, no one else.

Secrets of Dragon´s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
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  User Deleted
11/14/12 3:17:51 AM#189
Originally posted by FromHell
Originally posted by postpwn

I stayed away from this game for one reason:

 

 

The EA logo

EA didn´t write the game design document, mate. /rolleyes

 

EA is a publisher. Bioware was supposed to have a clue how to make a successful game.

 

Doesn´t matter that Bioware is "owned" by EA. They are the ones who designed and programmed the game the way it is.

 

I entirely blame the leaders of Bioware: CEOs, game director, lead developers, executive producer, no one else.

You cant really be certain. The shift in BW towards WoW with SW skin happned as EA was tightening the grip.

Its quite possible EA and LA demanded from BW to scrap most of their design document and just copy WoW.

It would be idealistic if devs had freedom to make whatever they want, but in most cases one with the money calls the shots even if they dont make too much sense. To devs or public.

I work in design business and often crap has to be made on account of various...other parties that hold power even if you cant possibly grasp they disband perfectly good solutions for bad ones.

  wowfan1996

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/09
Posts: 741

11/14/12 3:38:47 AM#190
Main reason - EA. Not the only reason though.

MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  wowfan1996

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/09
Posts: 741

11/14/12 3:43:25 AM#191
Originally posted by FromHell
EA didn´t write the game design document, mate. /rolleyes
EA is a publisher. Bioware was supposed to have a clue how to make a successful game.

Strangely, BW had a clue... until EA took over. Must be a pure coincidence. /rolleyes

MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3132

11/14/12 4:29:50 AM#192
SWTOR was coded and designed by Bioware..  EA had little to do with it..  SWTOR is exactly how Bioware wanted it >> KoTOR III with multi-play ability.. It appears that most that bought the game didn't want that..  Just that simple..  When a building falls down, you don't blame the bank for financing it, you blame the architechs..
  User Deleted
11/14/12 5:05:57 AM#193
Originally posted by Rydeson
SWTOR was coded and designed by Bioware..  EA had little to do with it..  SWTOR is exactly how Bioware wanted it >> KoTOR III with multi-play ability.. It appears that most that bought the game didn't want that..  Just that simple..  When a building falls down, you don't blame the bank for financing it, you blame the architechs..

SWTOR if in a far-far-far away galaxy from KOTOR.

Cant really figure out how does uninspired WoW clone (or generic MMO if you prefer) got to be called KOTOR. Maybe pre-release when nobody really knew, but now...its just misguided.

As is your building example. If the bank owns architects and its either "do it my way or the high-way" lot of crap hits the fan.

Why do you wonder lots of structure collapse? Because investor demanded lowering the cost of structure so cuts go way into areas they shouldnt really go.

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3132

11/14/12 5:54:56 AM#194
Originally posted by mikahr
Originally posted by Rydeson
SWTOR was coded and designed by Bioware..  EA had little to do with it..  SWTOR is exactly how Bioware wanted it >> KoTOR III with multi-play ability.. It appears that most that bought the game didn't want that..  Just that simple..  When a building falls down, you don't blame the bank for financing it, you blame the architechs..

SWTOR if in a far-far-far away galaxy from KOTOR.

Cant really figure out how does uninspired WoW clone (or generic MMO if you prefer) got to be called KOTOR. Maybe pre-release when nobody really knew, but now...its just misguided.

As is your building example. If the bank owns architects and its either "do it my way or the high-way" lot of crap hits the fan.

Why do you wonder lots of structure collapse? Because investor demanded lowering the cost of structure so cuts go way into areas they shouldnt really go.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree..  From where I'm sitting.. SWTOR plays too much like KoTOR and Dragon Age.. All 3 are linear storyline rpg's.. SWTOR has much more in common with KoTOR then it does with WoW..   Anyways..  Bioware made their bed, now they can sleep in it.. 

  Acvivm

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/10
Posts: 311

11/14/12 7:00:40 AM#195
Originally posted by Rydeson
SWTOR was coded and designed by Bioware..  EA had little to do with it..  SWTOR is exactly how Bioware wanted it >> KoTOR III with multi-play ability.. It appears that most that bought the game didn't want that..  Just that simple..  When a building falls down, you don't blame the bank for financing it, you blame the architechs..

Pretty much, people knew what to expect from this game and yet they continue going on about how terrible it is and how unlike SWG it is when they were the idiots who bought it knowing full well it wasn't. I knew exactly what the game was before I bought it, played the beta beforehand and overall I still think its a good game.

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  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/14/12 7:27:50 AM#196
I suspect ea went "add more wow"
That was certainly the case during warhammer beta, wasn't in swtor beta though.
  Whitebeards

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 750

11/14/12 7:33:22 AM#197
Originally posted by FromHell
Originally posted by postpwn

I stayed away from this game for one reason:

 

 

The EA logo

EA didn´t write the game design document, mate. /rolleyes

 

EA is a publisher. Bioware was supposed to have a clue how to make a successful game.

 

Doesn´t matter that Bioware is "owned" by EA. They are the ones who designed and programmed the game the way it is.

 

I entirely blame the leaders of Bioware: CEOs, game director, lead developers, executive producer, no one else.

Assuming that EA actually gives that much freedom to its devs. Which i am sure they do not.

  User Deleted
11/14/12 7:44:47 AM#198
Originally posted by ShakyMo
I suspect ea went "add more wow"
That was certainly the case during warhammer beta, wasn't in swtor beta though.

Of course, theres no way to be certain but im leaning towards this.

Probably when they bought BW they saw: MMO in development, SW IP and BW TM.

So they went:SW IP+BW TM+WoW clone=auto win. Probably talked Lucas in joining in that PoV.

And it went from original idea to WoW clone with odd class quest (remains of "old" stuff) here and there.

  Lugors

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/06/12
Posts: 168

11/17/12 9:14:19 AM#199
Originally posted by FromHell
Originally posted by postpwn

I stayed away from this game for one reason:

 

 

The EA logo

EA didn´t write the game design document, mate. /rolleyes

 

EA is a publisher. Bioware was supposed to have a clue how to make a successful game.

 

Doesn´t matter that Bioware is "owned" by EA. They are the ones who designed and programmed the game the way it is.

 

I entirely blame the leaders of Bioware: CEOs, game director, lead developers, executive producer, no one else.

You have the wrong site picture here.  Bioware is just a label that EA has purchased.  It's like saying you have a problem with a Dasani water bottle, but Coke is blameless.  A better example is saying that the new Madden game sucks, but it's EA Sports fault, not really EA at large.

This was not a merger like Activision/Blizzard where Blizzard maintains a level of autonomy.  Bioware is one of many studios that EA bought for the brand name, IPs and personnel.    

  Deewe

Novice Member

Joined: 5/02/08
Posts: 1976

11/17/12 10:25:18 AM#200
Originally posted by Lugors
Originally posted by FromHell
Originally posted by postpwn

I stayed away from this game for one reason:

 

 

The EA logo

EA didn´t write the game design document, mate. /rolleyes

 

EA is a publisher. Bioware was supposed to have a clue how to make a successful game.

 

Doesn´t matter that Bioware is "owned" by EA. They are the ones who designed and programmed the game the way it is.

 

I entirely blame the leaders of Bioware: CEOs, game director, lead developers, executive producer, no one else.

You have the wrong site picture here.  Bioware is just a label that EA has purchased.  It's like saying you have a problem with a Dasani water bottle, but Coke is blameless.  A better example is saying that the new Madden game sucks, but it's EA Sports fault, not really EA at large.

This was not a merger like Activision/Blizzard where Blizzard maintains a level of autonomy.  Bioware is one of many studios that EA bought for the brand name, IPs and personnel.    

Sorry but FromHell is right here.

For the record it was part of the deal when EA bought BioWare. The latter requested to have free reign over the development of TOR.

At a point EA was worried the game development wasn't going as fast as needed.  BioWare sold to EA they needed more time. They also had EA agree into having money spend into the Voiced Over Players Characters.

EA signed the check and at some point when they realised BioWare was nowhere close to have finished the game and would take eons to finish it they set a hard date. Btw, initially the game was scheduled to launch more than 1 year before it did.

The below articles will give you a glimpse of what actually happened. Even the producers acknowledged they where clueless at managing such a big project.

 

 

 

You can blame EA for having set a hard date, but you can't for having hindered its development nor its design choices nor even build such a poor engine.

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