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General Discussion  » New Talent system?

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39 posts found
  Shadoed

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/03/03
Posts: 1469

10/18/12 9:13:19 AM#21
Originally posted by tazarconan

The fact that the majority of players that played wow from vanilla times have quitted its answer itself.Ofc they didnt stop playing wow only because of the talent system changes.But its a main complain if u ask them.I speak with many guys and rl friends that quitted wow and all agree on that part.

Some ppl claim that there wasnt real choise in the old system with so many talents on the trees and the working builds were again few and specific, plus there were many talents that were kinda not usefull and u had to pick them to reach to x talent.Agreed but only for specific expansions.

Back in vanilla and im speaking about my toon which was a hunter,i experimented with loads of combo specs that were working just fine for various combat situations (its always fun to beat good geared warriors/rogues in melee mode with your hunter,something that u cant even try nowdays since they made hunter a pew pew class aka L2, and i aint talk about just duels,but in the old ranked vanilla bg's ,specs that no other hunter used or at least very few. Freedom in choise is something not to be taken out lightly in a game.And blizzard yes they also did this so they can have less work in balancing things.

You wont hear many complaints from current wow players cause the ones that play it actually prefer it that way.

If u ask me the right way should be the old vanilla trees with the addition of more intresting talents replacing those telents that were not so intriguing.Over the course of expansions blizzard choosed the way of dumbing them instead of enriching. More choises in character development is always a good thing when we speak about rpg's. Dumbing down is the way of the consolized  rpgs or fps excuse of rpg's.

Firstly, is it a fact or are you just making assumptions? I am a Vanilla player and i am still around as are several of my friends and guild members, but that is by the by.

Secondly, did the Vanilla trees give you more choice or again was it an illusion of choice because theoretically it was possible to get the top talent in one tree and go quite deeply into another, but at the cost of talent ranks and generally without the talent ranks maxed out the talents you chose weren't as effective as they could be, so you were back to the same problem. You are right that quite a few people found unique combinations that worked better than others, but that is how the whole cookie cutter culture started because once one person found that magic combination, everyone wanted the same build.

The other thing i don't think adds up is the argument about Blizzard making it easier to balance classes by making these changes because by making more of the previous talents automatic they have a bigger issue if something is out of whack as it affects all of that class and not just the ones that chose that particular talent as it would have previously. By bringing more of the talents out of the selection and into the permanant build of the class they have given themselves a harder task in essence when it comes to the balancing act.

Again, not everyone will like the changes, but I for one do think that it is a move in the right direction although i can also understand how much this has an effect on the RP aspects of the game by taking out the training.

It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  Pyuk

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/05
Posts: 650

10/18/12 9:21:19 AM#22
Originally posted by itgrowls
it's true, they dumbed it down. Now it's even more (you simply have to do it this way or else). From what i've seen it's not very impressive and it further communicates the notion to the players that the devs think 'you don't know how to play this game so we'll help you do it right' There are pleanty of other things i was disappointed with but this was one of the big ones.

I have to agree 100%. I liked making a hybred build before MOP, even if it wasn't the greatest build. Now I don't have a choice. And with Hunter pets it's even worse. All pet talent choice has been completly removed and all a Hunter has to do now is select one of three predetermined builds. It's on the scale of absurdity. I'm thinking the next expansion players won't even have to touch their keyboards to play WoW. Just login and the game will play itself. Gumbo for the drooling masses!

I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.

  User Deleted
10/18/12 9:33:37 AM#23

While I definitely agree that WoW needed to get away from cookie-cutter builds, I don't think the new talent system is the answer.

I still think Rift's talent system (Souls) is one of the best.  It offers a lot of flexibility and variation between builds and starts granting talent points at level 2 as opposed to having to wait 15 levels for a talent choice. 

Are there cookie-cutter builds in Rift?  Sure, but I find that Rift offers a level of class customization that few other MMO's can rival.

  Shadoed

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/03/03
Posts: 1469

10/18/12 10:18:20 AM#24
Originally posted by fat_taddler

While I definitely agree that WoW needed to get away from cookie-cutter builds, I don't think the new talent system is the answer.

I still think Rift's talent system (Souls) is one of the best.  It offers a lot of flexibility and variation between builds and starts granting talent points at level 2 as opposed to having to wait 15 levels for a talent choice. 

Are there cookie-cutter builds in Rift?  Sure, but I find that Rift offers a level of class customization that few other MMO's can rival.

Just had a look at those as i haven't played Rift (note to self: download that!), but they do remind me very much of the original talent trees on WoW, especially with filling one tree and using the oveflow in the other trees. I do like the idea of those roots as well, that would definately enrich the talent experience a little, but i suppose it is just a twist on reaching a particular level to get a talent, although a twist for the good so i can see why you like it. Then of course you do have the choice of soul mix which adds a lot of variation i would imagine, very nice system overall.

It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  Teala

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 7400

"Really officer, they're herbs."

10/18/12 1:09:16 PM#25
So some of you think the new talent system is not dumbed down.   Funny, I wonder if you play a Hunter in WoW.   They took out many glyphs that allowed us to really help change up the way our charater was played and gave us less choices.   They took our talents and mashed them up and gave us less choices forcing  us to be either DPS build, or crowd control build.    Even our pets talent trees were dumbed down and simplified to the point of silliness.   You can no longer pick and choose how you wish your pet to behave - they packaged up the talents into pre-determined sets and now you must play it their way.    So tell me again how they didn't dumb down the talent system in WoW.

  Betaguy

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/31/04
Posts: 2359

Some folks are like Slinkies, totally useless but great fun to watch when pushed down stairs

10/18/12 1:16:08 PM#26
Originally posted by david361107

I've been reading some reviews and in most of them I'm seeing that the talent system has been dumbed down again and leaving players with very little to pick as they level. Most of the builds are cookie cutter even worst so now with MoP than it got in CAT. How do most of the players feel about the new talent system? would like to hear from players that played WOW at Vanilla.

 

Peace,

Lascer

It basically saves me time from having to put silly points one by one into little percentages over time... much better imo.

  tazarconan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/03/07
Posts: 1021

10/18/12 7:55:24 PM#27
Originally posted by Shadoed
Originally posted by tazarconan

The fact that the majority of players that played wow from vanilla times have quitted its answer itself.Ofc they didnt stop playing wow only because of the talent system changes.But its a main complain if u ask them.I speak with many guys and rl friends that quitted wow and all agree on that part.

Some ppl claim that there wasnt real choise in the old system with so many talents on the trees and the working builds were again few and specific, plus there were many talents that were kinda not usefull and u had to pick them to reach to x talent.Agreed but only for specific expansions.

Back in vanilla and im speaking about my toon which was a hunter,i experimented with loads of combo specs that were working just fine for various combat situations (its always fun to beat good geared warriors/rogues in melee mode with your hunter,something that u cant even try nowdays since they made hunter a pew pew class aka L2, and i aint talk about just duels,but in the old ranked vanilla bg's ,specs that no other hunter used or at least very few. Freedom in choise is something not to be taken out lightly in a game.And blizzard yes they also did this so they can have less work in balancing things.

You wont hear many complaints from current wow players cause the ones that play it actually prefer it that way.

If u ask me the right way should be the old vanilla trees with the addition of more intresting talents replacing those telents that were not so intriguing.Over the course of expansions blizzard choosed the way of dumbing them instead of enriching. More choises in character development is always a good thing when we speak about rpg's. Dumbing down is the way of the consolized  rpgs or fps excuse of rpg's.

Firstly, is it a fact or are you just making assumptions? I am a Vanilla player and i am still around as are several of my friends and guild members, but that is by the by.

Secondly, did the Vanilla trees give you more choice or again was it an illusion of choice because theoretically it was possible to get the top talent in one tree and go quite deeply into another, but at the cost of talent ranks and generally without the talent ranks maxed out the talents you chose weren't as effective as they could be, so you were back to the same problem. You are right that quite a few people found unique combinations that worked better than others, but that is how the whole cookie cutter culture started because once one person found that magic combination, everyone wanted the same build.

The other thing i don't think adds up is the argument about Blizzard making it easier to balance classes by making these changes because by making more of the previous talents automatic they have a bigger issue if something is out of whack as it affects all of that class and not just the ones that chose that particular talent as it would have previously. By bringing more of the talents out of the selection and into the permanant build of the class they have given themselves a harder task in essence when it comes to the balancing act.

Again, not everyone will like the changes, but I for one do think that it is a move in the right direction although i can also understand how much this has an effect on the RP aspects of the game by taking out the training.

Yes it is a fact no assumptions.Exceptions ofc there are around but are very few. 12 guys in the hood played wow at launch only 1 keeps playing. And last time i went back to the server i was playing for a whole month out of 200+ guys ex-guildies i knew well,only around a dozen were still around and not that active ofc.

Yes vanilla trees were giving more no illusions or dellusions there. I had several combo trees that got tested in bg's and i aint even talking about 21-20 combos , i discovered some nice combos without even caping 1 tree 15--14-12 and were working fine for the purposes i needed them for.

Here we ll disagree. When we talk about rpg's and wow is an rpg, anything that envolves character evolvment and development it goes like this. The more the better. Imagine an rpg where for example you can pick talents in talent trees,feats,skills and traits. Character system needs to be deep and addictive.And those 2 things are sitting next to each other tied.

now dont missunderstand something.I m sure there are ppl even from the old times and new players that actually enjoy simplicity and not very complex things concerning their toon.Maybe they want to just sit relax and enjoy and it ofc fine.There are thoguh alot more hardcore players that like alot mindblowing if possible possibiities about how to eveolve their toon.

  Shadoed

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/03/03
Posts: 1469

10/19/12 5:28:26 AM#28
Originally posted by tazarconan
now dont missunderstand something.I m sure there are ppl even from the old times and new players that actually enjoy simplicity and not very complex things concerning their toon.Maybe they want to just sit relax and enjoy and it ofc fine.There are thoguh alot more hardcore players that like alot mindblowing if possible possibiities about how to eveolve their toon.

I guess we will agree to disagree on the changes and like yourself i did enjoy playing around wth different possible builds, but you were never going to use more than one once you found the one that did the job for you and lets lay it out that it was never really rocket science at any point in time.

I respect your stand and I have always preferred PvE to PvP shown by the fact that my PvP chars only carried the 'Private' & 'Sergeant' (both rogues) title of old and maybe that is why we see this differently i don't know, but i still maintain that for the majority of players builds were pretty much set using the older tree systems and the new system does give a wider choice without having to worry about all of the trash. A simplification, yes, dumbing down, no.

It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  tazarconan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/03/07
Posts: 1021

10/19/12 8:04:18 AM#29
Originally posted by Shadoed
Originally posted by tazarconan
now dont missunderstand something.I m sure there are ppl even from the old times and new players that actually enjoy simplicity and not very complex things concerning their toon.Maybe they want to just sit relax and enjoy and it ofc fine.There are thoguh alot more hardcore players that like alot mindblowing if possible possibiities about how to eveolve their toon.

I guess we will agree to disagree on the changes and like yourself i did enjoy playing around wth different possible builds, but you were never going to use more than one once you found the one that did the job for you and lets lay it out that it was never really rocket science at any point in time.

I respect your stand and I have always preferred PvE to PvP shown by the fact that my PvP chars only carried the 'Private' & 'Sergeant' (both rogues) title of old and maybe that is why we see this differently i don't know, but i still maintain that for the majority of players builds were pretty much set using the older tree systems and the new system does give a wider choice without having to worry about all of the trash. A simplification, yes, dumbing down, no.

Something i didnt clarify,is that the possible builds thingie i was referring to pvp matters. Concerning pve the really possible usefull specs were fewer and in most classes quite obvius what to pick sadly in order to max dps or dmg overall output.Here i shall agree.For pve specs were few and specific on what to pick.After 3 years of playing out hunter ,i rolled warrior and rogue.For another 3 years i played  all these 3 chars. Warrior and rogue i must say had less possible hmm smarts builds to make than the hunter. But thats something bliz should take care to offe rto players more choises.

  Random_mage

Novice Member

Joined: 8/15/08
Posts: 1156

10/19/12 3:57:13 PM#30
I am a current wow player for the next week. I am complaining. Blizzard decided what the best choices were, and made that descision. There is going to be a best choice for the 6 point system you have now. 6 point system vs 71 point system. I will concide that the cata system gave an illusion, but you still had more glyph choices, and finishing a tree still gave you more offensive or defensive choices. Now, you pick a role and a few more tweaks. Thats less folks, too bad you are so brain washed...

Currently playing Real Life..

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  garbonzo

Novice Member

Joined: 3/29/07
Posts: 240

10/19/12 5:02:24 PM#31
I'll admit this is premature because I haven't gotten into the new system yet - starting tonight. But, I remember having some very particular builds for very unusual situations, that you would never use for general pvp or pve, like a hunter+turtle spec I had for soloing instances. I also recall in BC a weird spec designed precisely for going after OP locks (but that also involved shadow resist gear if I remember correctly). Anyway, I had fun designing unorthodox specs that worked in unusual situations, and it would seem eliminating choices reduces some of that creativity. But, I see the points that for "mainstream" pvp or pve there was usually 1-2 viable specs at any given time.
  mbd1968

Elite Member

Joined: 2/21/07
Posts: 1803

11/03/12 2:47:45 PM#32

I just bought MoP and resubbed for a month unaware of Talent Tree changes. I thought it was dumbed down in Cataclysm but now it's much worse, I really see no point in having Talent Trees at all. Also the combat now seems lacking, for me the game is no longer fun to play and I doubt I will see out my moths sub, $55 wasted.

If Wiley published a book called "MMOs for Dummies" page one would be the only one with writing on it and the rest would be blank, it wouls say "Play World of Warcraft". Someone once said that the only people who would kill WoW would be Blizzard, congratulations on your NGE. It killed SWG, now it will kill WoW.

  skeezixs

Novice Member

Joined: 11/13/04
Posts: 65

11/11/12 10:42:46 AM#33

I get what people are saying with the new talent tree, but there is still no real identity in wow. A pally is a pally. There is one top set of gear that you will want to get. there will be a little variance in the character but you still are your class. There are many games out there that let you build your character how you want. Examples are like Rift or EQ1 was one of the best. You had 1000's of options on how to make your character your character. You could increase, dps, defense, heals, ultility, and other facets of your character. You pick 2 pallies same level same aa points and you would have 2 very different  play styles. I miss that in games. Eq has made a lot of changes I hate and have not played much since HoT. Rift was fun but hit end game on 3 characters and the leveling thru basically the same stuff over and over is boring. The end game is minimal to me. Have tried other games. Just finding that all of them since wow's launch are all to easy and fast. I should not be able to hit max level in a month or 2. Everything progresses to fast and feels like it is handed to you. Wow is pretty, my sons like it and i play with them every so often. since Mop was released they has both lost interest and it seems that it has gotten fairly stale. So much so I think we have tried close to 15 new mmo's in the past few months and nothing out there is really that good. GW2, SWotR, TSW, WarZ, Sevencore, DCUO, Wizardry and many others are either buggy, to fast like TSW great game fun quests max level in 2 weeks really? Lame. 

  Axxar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 1754

"See how I reward those who fail me!"

11/12/12 10:58:10 AM#34
I don't think the new system is very interesting. I can see how the old system was flawed, but I find the new one pretty boring.

Currently playing: FTL, Hearthstone and Reaper of Souls.
Eagerly anticipating: Divinity: Original Sin, Elite: Dangerous, Legend of Grimrock 2 and Star Citizen.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3070

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

11/12/12 10:59:38 AM#35


Originally posted by david361107
I've been reading some reviews and in most of them I'm seeing that the talent system has been dumbed down again and leaving players with very little to pick as they level. Most of the builds are cookie cutter even worst so now with MoP than it got in CAT. How do most of the players feel about the new talent system? would like to hear from players that played WOW at Vanilla.

 

Peace,

Lascer


Could not come back even if i wanted to now.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  MurlockDance

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1065

11/17/12 7:15:57 AM#36
Originally posted by Axxar
I don't think the new system is very interesting. I can see how the old system was flawed, but I find the new one pretty boring.

Agreed. I was playing during the entire year-long pass thing, but man, MoP really did in my desire to play. I am an old Vanilla player too, and I think a lot of people are forgetting that there were many ways to play your class, though if you wanted to raid the choices of talent spec were far more limited.

Now, you don't even have a choice, the choice is made for you, and you are basically given your abilities as if you were going to go out and raid. Not everyone is a min maxer, but everyone now has maxed out specs. With the new talents, there are a few that I believe are absolutely essential to certain builds, such as the demo Warlock and the upgraded pet talent. I think the other talents at that level are totally unattractive for a demo lock. Or take the glyphs as someone mentioned: in my opinion there are only really a few interesting choices for a demo lock.

Compare that to the many different specs I tried for my lock in Vanilla and TBC: I had a shadow mastery spec on an affliction lock that was really fun to play back in the day. I also tried out a demo build that maximized sacrificing my voidwalker, recasting him, self healing and doing nasty DoTs to elite mobs. I also had a destro/aff shadowbolt lock that I played in world PvP. Now that to me was choice. And that is not taking into consideration the tons of builds my Shaman friend had for PvP.

Compare that to MoP, where every demo lock performs the same way outside of one or two abilities.

Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

  trash656

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/05
Posts: 364

It is easier to Fight for Principles then it is to Live up to them.

11/17/12 8:39:27 AM#37
Originally posted by david361107

I've been reading some reviews and in most of them I'm seeing that the talent system has been dumbed down again and leaving players with very little to pick as they level. Most of the builds are cookie cutter even worst so now with MoP than it got in CAT. How do most of the players feel about the new talent system? would like to hear from players that played WOW at Vanilla.

 

Peace,

Lascer

IMO The New talent system is complete garbage, but I think the entire game has just gone to complete garbage since when WoTLK was released. As soon as I saw them slowly dumbing the entire game down over time thats when I realized they were taking the game into a differn't direction. The original people who made WoW are not even working on it anymore, most of the new devs are new.

Oh well who cares. WoW is an old game, and it sucks now. But thats just me. You might like it if your new to WoW.

  Tutu2

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/11/06
Posts: 543

11/20/12 6:40:22 AM#38
Originally posted by mbd1968

I just bought MoP and resubbed for a month unaware of Talent Tree changes. I thought it was dumbed down in Cataclysm but now it's much worse, I really see no point in having Talent Trees at all. Also the combat now seems lacking, for me the game is no longer fun to play and I doubt I will see out my moths sub, $55 wasted.

If Wiley published a book called "MMOs for Dummies" page one would be the only one with writing on it and the rest would be blank, it wouls say "Play World of Warcraft". Someone once said that the only people who would kill WoW would be Blizzard, congratulations on your NGE. It killed SWG, now it will kill WoW.

Something is not dumbed down if the illusion of choice is stripped away and you are given a more straight-forward design that removes alot of redundancies. Everyone and their dog used the exact same cookie-cutter builds for each class, the trees just looked prettier and it looked like you had more choice then you really did. Anyways, I still have to agree while I get why they did what they did, the new talent system is still pretty dull. The new talents are underwhelming and don't feel very exciting.

  MurlockDance

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1065

11/21/12 4:05:30 AM#39
Originally posted by Tutu2

Something is not dumbed down if the illusion of choice is stripped away and you are given a more straight-forward design that removes alot of redundancies. Everyone and their dog used the exact same cookie-cutter builds for each class, the trees just looked prettier and it looked like you had more choice then you really did. Anyways, I still have to agree while I get why they did what they did, the new talent system is still pretty dull. The new talents are underwhelming and don't feel very exciting.

Hmm... I think some of the talents are rather dull, but some are actually very useful and powerful. The Warlock pet upgrades one comes to mind.

However, the talent trees prior to MoP shouldn't be lumped all together and judged without taking into consideration that they have been revamped many times. The talent trees of Vanilla were not as cookie cutter and allowed for a heck of a lot of choice. TBC started removing some of that choice towards the release of WotLK when Blizzard began to limit how people could choose their talents. In Cata, they were very drab and there were basically only a few ways at best to put points in any given trees (most only had one viable iteration).

That is why I find Blizzard's claim a bit disingeneous.

Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

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