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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Looking back at MMOExposed's spotlight thread regarding Lacking of tanking mechanics leads to zergfest, was he right?

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65 posts found
  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3461

11/15/12 4:35:07 AM#41
Originally posted by Lobotomist
 

They didnt say there will be dedicated. What they DID say that each class could spec into being dedicated.

Did this happen ? No

1. Every class can do hell lot of damage - but some can do hell lot more < - Everyone can be nuker FAIL

2. Every class can tank - Yet tanking dungeon boss with elementalist , even Necro is cute , but not as effective as Guardian < - Everyone can be dedicated Tank FAIL

3. Every class can heal others - Yet Elementalist and Engineer can do it whole lot better - And no class can heal enough to keep people effectively alive - Dedicated Healer FAIL

I think ANet did drop the ball on balancing but it is kinda understandable since the game hasn't been even out for more than a few months now.

At the moment, I wouldn't be surprized if a full guardian party is more effective than different classes combined.

<-- leveling a guardian atm. :P

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  xpiher

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/22/08
Posts: 3297

11/15/12 4:35:10 AM#42
You can tank in GW2 the same way you tanked in GW1. People just dont understand how you manage agro without a "taunt" skill. 


Games:
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  User Deleted
11/15/12 4:40:01 AM#43

No, players that treat it like a zerg tend to do lots of corpse runs to finish a dungeon.

If you actually know how to use combo fields and well timed defensive abilities, the dungeons run much smoother.

I find the combat in GW2 far more interesting due to the lack of tank and spank.  I find other games with tanks just put in cheap tactics like mem wipes and death touches to create an illusion of difficulty.

Also happy that GW2 doesnt require 3rd party programs to understand what is going on in combat, its all very visual and instinctive. Makes it feel more like a game than a math puzzle. My screen for raids in EQ2 / WoW with AE timers and such was a joke.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2548

11/15/12 4:43:23 AM#44
Originally posted by Lobotomist

They didnt say there will be dedicated. What they DID say that each class could spec into being dedicated.

Did this happen ? No

1. Every class can do hell lot of damage - but some can do hell lot more < - Everyone can be nuker FAIL

2. Every class can tank - Yet tanking dungeon boss with elementalist , even Necro is cute , but not as effective as Guardian < - Everyone can be dedicated Tank FAIL

3. Every class can heal others - Yet Elementalist and Engineer can do it whole lot better - And no class can heal enough to keep people effectively alive - Dedicated Healer FAIL

I think you misread or are confusing.

They said every class could spec to be more support, more defense or more offense.

That is true.

But during a dungeon or encounters you should be doing all the 3, some professions are just better than others at certain aspects.

For example a Guardian might start as (0/10)

Offense 5

Defense 6

Support 6

And if you spec in offense you raise offense to 7, spec in defense or support and you'll raise them to 8.

A Warrior starts as

Offense 6

Defense 6

Support 4

And you spec to bring offense to 8, defense to 7 and support to 5 or 6.

This is of course very different from holy trinity games where most chars start as

Offense 3

Defense 3

Healing  3

And you can spec to bring one single stat to 10 and if you spread at all the max you can get on a stat is 5, and the difference between 9 and 10 is bigger than the difference between 1 and 9.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4568

11/15/12 4:53:39 AM#45
Originally posted by Lobotomist
***snip**

They didnt say there will be dedicated. What they DID say that each class could spec into being dedicated.

Did this happen ? No

1. Every class can do hell lot of damage - but some can do hell lot more < - Everyone can be nuker FAIL

2. Every class can tank - Yet tanking dungeon boss with elementalist , even Necro is cute , but not as effective as Guardian < - Everyone can be dedicated Tank FAIL

3. Every class can heal others - Yet Elementalist and Engineer can do it whole lot better - And no class can heal enough to keep people effectively alive - Dedicated Healer FAIL

Where has Anet ever said that?

What they said was that there were no dedicated roles, that each class could spec for a variety of different roles, and that each player would be responsible for their own life. All three of these are still very much true.

There's a whole range of things each class brings to the table aside from straight tankiness, healing potential, and damage. You have different forms of all 3, as well as multiple forms of utility / support. You have some classes that excel at sustained damage, some that have better burst potential, some that have better condition builds, some that have better minion builds, boons, shouts, passive buffs, control, some that are better with soft CC, others with hard CC, some better with blocks / reflection, others better with absorption & life leech.

The one thing Anet has said in the past about classes, is that you could run their dungeons with any combination of classes and succeed. While I haven't tested every single class combo, I have run with most combinations, and succeeded with most combinations. Even questionable setups like 5 rangers, 5 thieves, or 5 elementalists I've completed dungeons with. People prefer the most direct / simplistic classes, because it cuts down on the amount of planning / coordination / thinking one has to do. However, that doesn't mean that other classes aren't also viable in the same role. It just means people don't want to figure out how to work with these other setups.

There's really only one class atm that doesn't fit into Anet's promises, and they already came out and admitted to it. That would be the ranger, which currently bring almost nothing of value to a group.

  IPolygon

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/11
Posts: 699

11/15/12 10:07:01 AM#46
Originally posted by Lobotomist
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by Lobotomist

I think he was both right and wrong.

You see here Anet dropped the ball entirely.

 

When Anet stated they are removing the trinity - it promised that any class could do any of trinity roles.

In other words - elementalist could be dedicated tank , warrior could be dedicated healer and necromancer could be nuker...

 

Which is not what actually happens.

Guardian is still by far most effective tank , elementalist is by far most effective nuker ... and healer yes that is guardian again.

 

What anet did is not remove trinity , they broke trinity.

Now you dont really have effective tank (no way to hold agrro) , there is no real healer ( everyone can heal , some better than other - but no one is really good at healing ) - basically what everyone can do is nuking. This is what everyone can do effectively.

So if you can not tank, or heal ... you have no choice but to nuke and hope you will come on top - or run fast enough back , before the whole party wipe.

 

Except Warrior and Assassin are crazy damage dealers and Necro is a beefy tank.

And Earth elementalist have no problem surviving damage and elementalists are awesome condition removal support.

And rangers with a single skill are one of the best healers and even warrior shouter can do a nice amount healing.

Anet didn't say there would be dedicated tankers, healers or nukers.

They didnt say there will be dedicated. What they DID say that each class could spec into being dedicated.

Did this happen ? No

1. Every class can do hell lot of damage - but some can do hell lot more < - Everyone can be nuker FAIL

2. Every class can tank - Yet tanking dungeon boss with elementalist , even Necro is cute , but not as effective as Guardian < - Everyone can be dedicated Tank FAIL

3. Every class can heal others - Yet Elementalist and Engineer can do it whole lot better - And no class can heal enough to keep people effectively alive - Dedicated Healer FAIL

 

No, they didn't say that. You can be a healer, tank, dps, but never be dedicated (meaning sole purpose).
  FlawSGI

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/10
Posts: 1387

All of history is a lie. The truth depends on who does the listening, and who does the telling...

11/15/12 10:22:52 AM#47
At first glance it seems that way. But when you run with a good group then you realize that no it isn't a zergfest at all. If anyone has ran even the storymode dungeon with a pug and zerged it they will know it can be painful especially if they have a good group who uses coordination. it's a night and day difference. Also wtf is the OP talking in third person. I know a majority of the crap I read by OP I don't agree with but starting a thread to try to play the "I told you so" game while approaching it in the third person is childish. NO OP the game is not a zergfest due to the traditional lack of tanking and the only thing spotlighted is that even with you on the ignore list I still am forced to see crappy threads you creat and  peoples quotes of you.

RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11822

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

11/15/12 11:16:24 AM#48
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Do you think the person that gave spotlight to MMOExposed should bash their heads against the wall and wipe their behinds with a cactus every morning?

 

I'm not entirely convinced that he isn't the person that gave him the spotlight, but then that's my personal tinfoilhattery showing through.

  Siphaed

Elite Member

Joined: 1/17/08
Posts: 743

11/15/12 11:20:36 AM#49
Originally posted by MMOExposed

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/286958/page/1

well that's the thread that got him Spotlight Poster.

now looking back on it, was He right about GW2?

 

not trying to stir emotions by the way. Serious question about his spotlight post in the past.

No, he wasn't right.   There's some major mechanics and tactics needed for certain boss fights in PvE.  As for WvWvW....that's debateable.  Right now it's nothing but thieves running around stabbing everyone in 1-3 hit kills.   Then we've got this thing call "turtles", in which massive groups ball up as several Guardians heal everyone there and/or bubble them; mesmers portal the group around to avoid getting damage.

  Kaerigan

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/06
Posts: 713

11/15/12 11:24:08 AM#50

[mod edit]

Then Kaerigan went for a stroll with his dog, Oliver.

<childish, provocative and highly speculative banner about your favorite game goes here>

  Whitebeards

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 750

11/15/12 11:25:05 AM#51
Yes to an extent. Lack of any death penalities is also the reason why zerging is so common.
  Maephisto

Novice Member

Joined: 2/15/12
Posts: 653

11/15/12 1:47:59 PM#52

I am a part of a zerg busting group of my guild on SBI.  We usually have around 12 - 15 people on at a time.  Our job is to go around and send zergs back to thier spawn point so they spend most of thier time running across the map and regrouping. 

The lack of tanks has made the mechanics different, but at the end of the day, coordination (using combo fields and knowing your individual class/build) and team work trump zergs everytime.   Even when the zerg has a commander with them, they panic and run, making it a killing field.

Im sorry, the people who honestly believe WvW is some zergfest and nothing more; are the same people who mindlessly follow a group and put little thought or effort into thier gameplay.   Guild up and/or become an active member of the community and you will see a different side of the game.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

11/15/12 1:56:22 PM#53
Originally posted by Lobotomist

They didnt say there will be dedicated. What they DID say that each class could spec into being dedicated.

Did this happen ? No

1. Every class can do hell lot of damage - but some can do hell lot more < - Everyone can be nuker FAIL

2. Every class can tank - Yet tanking dungeon boss with elementalist , even Necro is cute , but not as effective as Guardian < - Everyone can be dedicated Tank FAIL

3. Every class can heal others - Yet Elementalist and Engineer can do it whole lot better - And no class can heal enough to keep people effectively alive - Dedicated Healer FAIL

 

No, you're wrong. They never said that. They said instead of the roles of dedicated tanks, healers and DPS you'd instead have combat broken down into damage, control and support. Every profession is fully capable of doing any/all of these functions, and it's practically impossible to build your character to where you only do one thing. We all do damage, help control the enemy and help support our allies. There's no, as promised, direct healing. There's no aggro-holding tanks. There's no pure dps. 

 

They delivered on this and did so brilliantly.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Whitebeards

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 750

11/15/12 1:56:25 PM#54
Originally posted by Maephisto

I am a part of a zerg busting group of my guild on SBI.  We usually have around 12 - 15 people on at a time.  Our job is to go around and send zergs back to thier spawn point so they spend most of thier time running across the map and regrouping. 

The lack of tanks has made the mechanics different, but at the end of the day, coordination (using combo fields and knowing your individual class/build) and team work trump zergs everytime.   Even when the zerg has a commander with them, they panic and run, making it a killing field.

Im sorry, the people who honestly believe WvW is some zergfest and nothing more; are the same people who mindlessly follow a group and put little thought or effort into thier gameplay.   Guild up and/or become an active member of the community and you will see a different side of the game.

Players are playing W v W as intended. Fights between huge number of players aka zerg vs zerg.

I belong to a medium size guild and we are always more than willing to look for good fights with odds stacked against us but when whole WVW design is made keeping huge numbers in mind, getting steamrolled by numbers much larger is inevtiable.

Unless, we call our enemies first and request them to bring equal numbers...easier said than done.

So step down from your high horse because W v W is about large numbers.

And the part i highlited is the most un original and vague tripe.

  Maephisto

Novice Member

Joined: 2/15/12
Posts: 653

11/15/12 2:11:09 PM#55
Originally posted by Whitebeards
Originally posted by Maephisto

I am a part of a zerg busting group of my guild on SBI.  We usually have around 12 - 15 people on at a time.  Our job is to go around and send zergs back to thier spawn point so they spend most of thier time running across the map and regrouping. 

The lack of tanks has made the mechanics different, but at the end of the day, coordination (using combo fields and knowing your individual class/build) and team work trump zergs everytime.   Even when the zerg has a commander with them, they panic and run, making it a killing field.

Im sorry, the people who honestly believe WvW is some zergfest and nothing more; are the same people who mindlessly follow a group and put little thought or effort into thier gameplay.   Guild up and/or become an active member of the community and you will see a different side of the game.

Players are playing W v W as intended. Fights between huge number of players aka zerg vs zerg.

I belong to a medium size guild and we are always more than willing to look for good fights with odds stacked against us but when whole WVW design is made keeping huge numbers in mind, getting steamrolled by numbers much larger is inevtiable.

Unless, we call our enemies first and request them to bring equal numbers...easier said than done.

So step down from your high horse because W v W is about large numbers.

And the part i highlited is the most un original and vague tripe.

I say you are wrong.

Small groups, can work to starve supply out of an enemy area, making it easier to take towers. There are many other examples.

Is a large group going to be needed to take over a keep/garrison/SM with reinforced walls........yes.  I think that was intended.

If one thing has been proven time and again is people will make these broad sweeping statements like "WvW is just a zergfest" and many times over they are eventually proven wrong.  Please tell me more about vague tripe.

As for the "vague tripe" there are many (even on SBI) players without guilds that participate in WvW.  Furthermore, SBI is stacked with PVE guilds.  I can only assume many other serverrs are the same way.  If you are in a PVE guild or not in any guild, then it is safe to assume your enjoyment of WvW is not what it could be.

  Whitebeards

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 750

11/15/12 2:16:50 PM#56
Originally posted by Maephisto
Originally posted by Whitebeards
Originally posted by Maephisto

I am a part of a zerg busting group of my guild on SBI.  We usually have around 12 - 15 people on at a time.  Our job is to go around and send zergs back to thier spawn point so they spend most of thier time running across the map and regrouping. 

The lack of tanks has made the mechanics different, but at the end of the day, coordination (using combo fields and knowing your individual class/build) and team work trump zergs everytime.   Even when the zerg has a commander with them, they panic and run, making it a killing field.

Im sorry, the people who honestly believe WvW is some zergfest and nothing more; are the same people who mindlessly follow a group and put little thought or effort into thier gameplay.   Guild up and/or become an active member of the community and you will see a different side of the game.

Players are playing W v W as intended. Fights between huge number of players aka zerg vs zerg.

I belong to a medium size guild and we are always more than willing to look for good fights with odds stacked against us but when whole WVW design is made keeping huge numbers in mind, getting steamrolled by numbers much larger is inevtiable.

Unless, we call our enemies first and request them to bring equal numbers...easier said than done.

So step down from your high horse because W v W is about large numbers.

And the part i highlited is the most un original and vague tripe.

I say you are wrong.

Small groups, can work to starve supply out of an enemy area, making it easier to take towers. There are many other examples.

Is a large group going to be needed to take over a keep/garrison/SM with reinforced walls........yes.  I think that was intended.

If one thing has been proven time and again is people will make these broad sweeping statements like "WvW is just a zergfest" and many times over they are eventually proven wrong.  Please tell me more about vague tripe.

As for the "vague tripe" there are many (even on SBI) players without guilds that participate in WvW.  Furthermore, SBI is stacked with PVE guilds.  I can only assume many other serverrs are the same way.  If you are in a PVE guild or not in any guild, then it is safe to assume your enjoyment of WvW is not what it could be.

Dude i belong to a PVP guild on Desolation. We are among top 3 PVP servers in EU so you don't have to tell me about the strategies in W v W. That is all our guild does on daily basis. But when you are matched against  servers like BT and French VS. It is a whole different ball game.

But we understand that because W v W is called so for a reason. It is one whole server against the other so ofcourse it encourages zerging. So yeah i can tell you more about the vague tripe but i am taking the design as it is and not trying to preach anyone that they are playing it wrong. If you don't want zerg or don't like it stick to S PVP or get ready to be rolled over again and again by huge numbers and when that happens take it like a man lol

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

11/15/12 2:18:09 PM#57
Originally posted by bartoni33
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by Karteli
GW2 is a really boring game.  Something needs to be done.

Well he didn't say that, but he did say it would be zergfest.

you agree?

Who the hell are you then?

At this point I think he meant to post OP as an alt account. Or all the forum power has gone to his head!

 

Ah, yes, the old sock-puppet gambit.   There was a big-blow-up in a certain neck of the Internet woods a few years ago...    Guy had so many sock-puppet accounts he forgot who was saying and doing what and BOOM, major blow-up...

  Nephaerius

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/18/09
Posts: 1444

11/15/12 2:20:41 PM#58
To me the issue has nothing to do with the lack of tanks or trinity it just comes down to piss poor dungeon/boss design.  Just because mobs have high HP and do a lot of damage does not make an encounter any more interesting or challenging.  There's been 0 boss/dungeon mechanics I've really found to be enjoyable or unique.  In fact GW2 instanced dungeon content is my least favorite of all time.  I've never been a dungeon fan in any game though.

Twitter: @Nephaerius
Steam: Neph
Xbox 360 GT: Nephaerius

  Cod_Eye

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/04/09
Posts: 1006

11/15/12 2:23:56 PM#59
Originally posted by kadepsyson

When I was twelve years old, I decided to talk in third person for a day.  I lasted almost half an hour before I gave up because of how dumb I realized it was.  That was a decade and a half ago for me.

And you know something?  I still think it's dumb.

You wouldnt believe how much I laughed at that.

  Redemp

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/30/05
Posts: 1055

If I didn't respond to you, chances are you're a idiot.

11/15/12 2:26:14 PM#60

 Wait ... isn't making a thread with a possible inflammatory topic, then letting the thread turn into a wildfire... baiting?

I guess he's just asking questions though, questions ....

 

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