Originally posted by psiicat

I actually like the idea of kickstarter for some projects, and I've even supported kickstarted game development.

However when I had time to think the whole thing through I realized just how blatantly dishonest, disrespectful, and greedy the whole process really is.

If you want to fund game developement there are already legitimate means of financial backing in place, investors, business loans, IPO's.. the problem with those options is those sources get a peice of the pie.. a return on investment.

Kickstarter allows the real disqusting purely greedy a means to keep all the pie for themselves at the same time deceiving gullible under-educated gamers into feeling like they are part of the team, a crucial critical part of the team.

If these game devs werent the most greedy crustaceans walking on two legs, instead of selling you your name on some in-game monument, they would be selling you investor shares, or a peice of the pie.

4 million dollars... ?

And here I was thinking people that come on sharktank asking for $ 100,000 for 5% of a company worthy $500,000 were greedy.

And it's this kind of thinking that we are stuck with the dumbed down mmo's these days. Publishers and shareholders don't want to do games they think of as risky or not enough of a money maker. They want their constantly redone call of duty games, their cookie cutter themepark mmo's.

Well screw them. With crowdsourcing you a say in what you want to see produced. Might a craptacular game come of it, sure, but I've seen plenty of abyssmal games come from the so called AAA companies to. The only people who think like you do are the big name publishers who can see the writing on the wall.

Their time of picking what games get made and how they get made is coming to an end.

Originally posted by erictlewis

YOu know I was in it when they said they needed 2 million,  then it was 3 million.  Now it is 4 million.  I thought they had backers who were going to pick up at the 2 million mark.

So now I am kind of worried that they are collecting money and were going to get the shaft, exactly ho bw much money are they going to beg for.

 

You are correct. 2 millions gives us the game. Chris always made it clear. The 2 mil gives us the game. But the online universe comes in 30 months.

And That is where the 4 mil come into place. 

If he can get to 4 mil he'll have enough to hire more people now and launch both the single player squadron 42 and the persistent online universe all at the same time. He also will use the added funds to create better mod tools with better tutorials and so on. And also use the extra million to create a bigger universe.  50 star systems instead of 40.

You can check the stretch goals here:

http://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/comprehensive-stretch-goals/

They have backers that have committed support since Chris could prove there is  enough interest. Project will cost more than 10 mil. The extra money will simply allow Chris to have more resources from the star to hire more people. 

I understand people skepticism. But I've been following this project. Chris has been hiring people. And they 've been making comments. He has done a couple of AMA on reddit. added a lot more info to the site to answer people doubts.

there is a FAQ here :

http://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/star-citizen-faq/

A more detailed look into the project here :

http://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/star-citizen-project/

It seams like they have a solid project. Yes they want money. But they also want to use those funds to build a great game.

Im seeing some people argue that with his name and his history, he should be able to secure any funding he wants.

its not that easy

well it is, that is if you are willing to give up somethings in return. 

If im going to give someone 10 million for a game, you can bet your ass my hands will be in the development process somewhere. Investors dont just hand over a blank check and tell the dev, "Call us when its done!" no, they get involved, and when they get involved, shit gets changed, and when shit gets changed, you get vanilla, because vanilla always sells and you cant go wrong with vanilla.

He can pitch star citizen to an investor and the investor (given today's path games are following) will ask for something similar to EVE online except a F2P model completely nullfiying the original idea (see the original idea for Horizons before it was butchered). 

Giving SC to EA will result in Chris Roberts being fired 5 months in, the game being handed off to BioWare, and the entire concept reworked into a mass effect MMO. 

In short, an investor handing over millions of dollars will have immense pull and say over the direction of the game, people who chip in $10-100 do not. And yes, while kickstart is a sort of scam, it does allow developers much much more freedom and allows them to create the product they want, not what a suit wants.

Originally posted by Renoaku

Honestly the game looks like crap.

You can show me all the movies you want, but instead of showing me movies show me an actual UI, a movie can look at lot cooler than the actual game itself, or customization the game offers.

Also Free 2 Play game, supporting one no thank you, I would not support or donate to a F2P game for development unless I ran or worked with the company.

Like seriously I have seen what every F2P game is like today what makes me believe this game is going to be different even buying a Beta, or Founders package seriously like  Lineage 2 Truly FREE, its Free, but Pay 2 Enjoy and obtain the best experience.

EVE online in this state looks better.

Also this game fails to show any actual character gameplay or demo's of how its going to be.

Its just meh why throw away money or donations into such a game you don't know how its going to be if a lot of rich people want to do this, or if a lot of gamers want to toss in $10 then so be it, but either way im not doing such for a development of a game unless I know the company actually has a chance of.

1. Design of a decent game.

2. Is Free 2 Play but without pay 2 enjoy, and pay 2 win.

3. Good Customizations of ships/characters, no pay to change characters like TERA for example.

Unless I know these and have an agreement with the company signed by the company that they will not do such I would never toss away my money not even $10.

Now about Kick Starter, meh they take way too much I wouldn't use their company honestly a flat rate would be better.

Actually, the video was rendered with the in-game engine. So the gameplay will have the same level of fidelty the video shows. (Depending on your gaming rig) There's a video where Chris Roberts flies the ship around and shoots some alien ships, so it isn't just a movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vhRQPhL1YU

Also, Star Citizen is going to be Buy2Play, where you buy the game and have access to the online part of it for free, without paying a sub, just like GW2. So your whole F2P rant is based on nothing.

Originally posted by kabitoshin
Never played a space sim, but man the immersion, scaling of this game this man is doing is amazing. What sold me was when he hopped in the cockpit started pressing all them buttons and they all aren't there for looks, but can be used is as close as realistic as I've ever seen. He said that they'll be using not 10,000 but 100,000 polygons on main charachters thats just nuts. My only problem is with this game is being able to run it at the setting I want, I have a 6 core processor 3.30 Ghz, 8gb ram, and a 660 ti. I know this isn't a MMO but will be ran by third party servers and have 3rd party mods cause that's what he wants and allowed. I'm definetly funding this since it's reached it's goal and then some but the 4 mill benchmark will add for a rich story and possibly greater stuff than that.

Since the game is in space, it allows for much higher polys. you dont have to render grass, trees, dirt, on top of structures, players, hair, etc. You are only rendering ships, the interior, and players. 

Originally posted by psiicat

I actually like the idea of kickstarter for some projects, and I've even supported kickstarted game development.

However when I had time to think the whole thing through I realized just how blatantly dishonest, disrespectful, and greedy the whole process really is.

If you want to fund game developement there are already legitimate means of financial backing in place, investors, business loans, IPO's.. the problem with those options is those sources get a peice of the pie.. a return on investment.

Kickstarter allows the real disqusting purely greedy a means to keep all the pie for themselves at the same time deceiving gullible under-educated gamers into feeling like they are part of the team, a crucial critical part of the team.

If these game devs werent the most greedy crustaceans walking on two legs, instead of selling you your name on some in-game monument, they would be selling you investor shares, or a peice of the pie.

4 million dollars... ?

And here I was thinking people that come on sharktank asking for $ 100,000 for 5% of a company worthy $500,000 were greedy.

 Sorry but this is BS, most invetstors are suits, not gamers they are in it for a return on thier money and could care less if a enjoyable game is ever released. EA/Bioware is a good example of the souless investor in gaming. Keep churning out the same sport game year after year with a slightly different skin yet at full price or take a IP like SW and try and make a WoW in space. Make big promises about a game where your choices effect things and daramticall different endings just to have the same ending in red, green, or blue colors. Seriously these are the people you put your trust in to produce quality games gamers actually want, rather then games mass produced that their think tanks believe will deliver the most money for investment?

  Think for a minute! No really think! What big name game developers put money to actual creat a decent game like kickstarters are willing to try rather then wasting half their budget on expensive add campaigns full of dishonest hype about their games like SOE, EA etc?

  What if when the games made, the money thats not repaid to greedy souless suit investors is instead put into funding the next game sequal or new game? We already know who the disgustingly greedy people in game developement are the current Big names Like EA, SOE, and yes Blizzard somewhat. Don't be a shameless shill for the big name soulless companys that make games only for most profit dispite what unmigated crap their final product is.

   Kickstarter and such funding is the true wave of the future for decent games. Do you think and big name company will make a high end PC only game, when instead they can dumb it down to sell even more on consul? Hell no. Most big named companies are about making the most casual, most dumbed down to play on any rig or consule to get the biggest return on thier investment, and if that means making a buggy game where they skimped on product developement or testing to pay for mass marketing adds they will

Originally posted by DarkOmega

Originally posted by psiicat

I actually like the idea of kickstarter for some projects, and I've even supported kickstarted game development.

However when I had time to think the whole thing through I realized just how blatantly dishonest, disrespectful, and greedy the whole process really is.

If you want to fund game developement there are already legitimate means of financial backing in place, investors, business loans, IPO's.. the problem with those options is those sources get a peice of the pie.. a return on investment.

Kickstarter allows the real disqusting purely greedy a means to keep all the pie for themselves at the same time deceiving gullible under-educated gamers into feeling like they are part of the team, a crucial critical part of the team.

If these game devs werent the most greedy crustaceans walking on two legs, instead of selling you your name on some in-game monument, they would be selling you investor shares, or a peice of the pie.

4 million dollars... ?

And here I was thinking people that come on sharktank asking for $ 100,000 for 5% of a company worthy $500,000 were greedy.

And it's this kind of thinking that we are stuck with the dumbed down mmo's these days. Publishers and shareholders don't want to do games they think of as risky or not enough of a money maker. They want their constantly redone call of duty games, their cookie cutter themepark mmo's.

Well screw them. With crowdsourcing you a say in what you want to see produced. Might a craptacular game come of it, sure, but I've seen plenty of abyssmal games come from the so called AAA companies to. The only people who think like you do are the big name publishers who can see the writing on the wall.

Their time of picking what games get made and how they get made is coming to an end.

 Amen! ^^

Originally posted by Ramonski7
These games cannot get enough return from offering signed CE copies @ $800 a pop anymore, I mean you actually have to produce a product. No now they want cash with no commitment and no product so they can show investors that they now have 4 million so they can get another 4 mill from them to live like kings for 7 years while they slowly work on their special baby... no thanks. Deliver a product and i'll deliver the cash.

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. At least not any more.  If you are happy to keep being fed WoW clones and other such, you are more than welcome to stick to the formula thats produces them.  I'm more than willing to risk some money on the off chance that we might get something different.  If you aren't, thats entirely up to you.  But then don't complain when what we see produced is what publishers/investors think will make them the most money. 

I understand many of the people skepticism over here, bu I made this post because I would love to see a true AAA space sim with this features come true.

We could all debate theories the mechanics of funding but in the end it comes down to this.

- Publishers aren't willing to invest in AAA space sims. And there are plenty of articles talking about this.

So question is. Where do people go if they have a cool project but can't get support from big companies?

- Most crowdfunding projects have one problem. They have little to show.

At least Chris made the effort of creating a tech demo to show what he wants to do. A real-time in engine tech demo. There are plenty of interviews and game footage. He has shown the physics engine working. The landing and launching of a ship. And all that. That tech demo was made by a very small team that invested their own free time and money.

- Mentioning how Chirs Roberts Wing Commander movie sucked leads to nothing. He was/is a great game developer but Wing Commander was his first big screen movie. And he did a bad job. You can be a great game developer and a bad movie director. Nothing wrong with that.  But if people want to discuss his career in the movies then they should also mention his successes. He was the producer of great movies such as Lord Of War and Lucky Number Slevin. And you just need to look at his IMDB page to know more about his movie career. Wing Commander was NOT the only hollywood project he was in. IT simply was his first.

We pay $10 to watch a movie in the cinema that sometimes suck (wing commander :P)

We buy games that cost a lot and that well..suck.

This guy has a proven track record making great games.  Every single Wing Commander game under his wing was a success.

And as far as doing groundbreaking stuff, let me put it this way. Chris was the first game developer to create a multiplayer online universe set in space with real-time combat. And you can check the game yourself to see how good it was/is. So much so that people are still actively playing that game this days. And there are multiple mods created for Freelancer.

http://www.moddb.com/games/freelancer/mods

Chris and his team, are doing a great job answering the community questions. If you have any question just send them an email and they will answer.

If you think their lieing than how would they have the support of companies like Alienware, NVIDIA, Oculus and Logitech?

They're even working closly with Crytek since their using their engine. They have bought a CryEngine license and that doesn't come out cheap.

Yes this companies have seen their tech demo and have offered some of their products as prices for the community. We all know no company wants their name tied to vaporware.

They are in their first year. Obviously they can't show you a full game because there is none. And obviously they can't work on a multi-million $ project without initial funding to pay the developer wages.

But if there is crowdfunding project you can trust, it's this one.

With Chris track record and past successes he doesn't need any money from any of us. He is a rich man already.

Obviously not rich enough to fund a game like this all alone. He would be insane. He is doing this because he trully wants to bring a new AAA space sim.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Ramonski7
These games cannot get enough return from offering signed CE copies @ $800 a pop anymore, I mean you actually have to produce a product. No now they want cash with no commitment and no product so they can show investors that they now have 4 million so they can get another 4 mill from them to live like kings for 7 years while they slowly work on their special baby... no thanks. Deliver a product and i'll deliver the cash.

 

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. At least not any more.  If you are happy to keep being fed WoW clones and other such, you are more than welcome to stick to the formula thats produces them.  I'm more than willing to risk some money on the off chance that we might get something different.  If you aren't, thats entirely up to you.  But then don't complain when what we see produced is what publishers/investors think will make them the most money. 

 I can understand if you think that on the surface, industry is littered with shit. Gold sinks, shit floats in water. So if you want to take the easy way out, by all means keep skimming the surface. I'll head down below and search hard for what I want. And if that means I have to research more or dive a little deeper to find it, then I'll do just that. But for me, this is a hobby not a political race. I liken myself as a voter, not a superPAC. I'm not throwing my money behind something hoping to hit it big. Especially not behind a pseudo mmo. So I'll keep using my money to find what I like and you can use yours to pay someone to hopefully make it for you. Funny thing is is that if they do make a awesome game we're both winners! I would have just paid less than you. Like I said I'm always willing to pay for a good game.

But truth be told, I'm quite happy investing a month or two from one game to another and enjoying them for what they are. Not looking for a deeper meaning of how the suits of the genre don't understand me anymore.

• I'm not a vet
• I'm not a jaded gamer
• I'm not a sheeple
• I'm not a old schooler
• I'm not a WoWer

I'm a gamer and a mmo fan. Nothing more, nothing less.

I played WC games back in the 80s/90s. But knowing how to make a game then, does not necessarily means knowig how to do it now.

Look at Richard Garret .. he has done nothing good after ultima.

And why should anyone pay for a promise of a game? If the game is released, i will take a look at the reviews or demo.

And the point about paying for bad movies/games is just silly. That can be avoided by reading reviews and/or playing demos. I have not spent money on a bad movie or a bad game for a long long time.

There is so much entertainment out there that simply there is no need to pay for promises, no matter who is doing the promising.

Originally posted by psiicat

I actually like the idea of kickstarter for some projects, and I've even supported kickstarted game development.

However when I had time to think the whole thing through I realized just how blatantly dishonest, disrespectful, and greedy the whole process really is.

If you want to fund game developement there are already legitimate means of financial backing in place, investors, business loans, IPO's.. the problem with those options is those sources get a peice of the pie.. a return on investment.

Kickstarter allows the real disqusting purely greedy a means to keep all the pie for themselves at the same time deceiving gullible under-educated gamers into feeling like they are part of the team, a crucial critical part of the team.

If these game devs werent the most greedy crustaceans walking on two legs, instead of selling you your name on some in-game monument, they would be selling you investor shares, or a peice of the pie.

4 million dollars... ?

And here I was thinking people that come on sharktank asking for $ 100,000 for 5% of a company worthy $500,000 were greedy.

Well said.

Originally posted by Cometer

I understand many of the people skepticism over here, bu I made this post because I would love to see a true AAA space sim with this features come true.

We could all debate theories the mechanics of funding but in the end it comes down to this.

- Publishers aren't willing to invest in AAA space sims. And there are plenty of articles talking about this.

There's a reason publishers aren't willing to invest in space sims for an mmo. It will not sell well, it will not turn enough profit for them to invest money in it, so why bother. Just because a few people would love to see it as an mmo, doesn't mean they will make it a good one. Begging for money to make an mmo, with promises, always makes me suspiscious. I mean, we already have AAA companies with mmos that have came out the past few years promising the world and then not delivering on it, what's to make us think a handful of people with a new mmo project begging for money are going to be an mmo savior for us all?

Originally posted by psiicat

Originally posted by Shodanas

Big fan of his game series but this smells like he is unemployable/fundable. With such a name whats behind the record where he can't get an infusion of venture?

He is neither unemployable nor unfundable. In fact, EA approached him and he turned them down! He is in touch with private investors and their term was a simple one: raise 2 million from the crowd so that we can determine the interest in your project and we will found your endeavor. You can find all the info you need at robertsspaceindustries.com  Check it out and you'll see that mr. Roberts means business.

In otherwords raise the real value of your company to 2 million so we can get to the valuation we need to be able to make our risk negligible because we are greedy chits as well and want all the reward without any of the risks.

Wait what?

Are you saying that it's an intelligent thing for an investment company not to mitigate risks? Are you aware that an invesmtent company invests the money of individual shareholders who will either gain or lose depending on the investments that company makes?

Wouldn't you want any company you invest in to do the same?

I was about to pledge and help them, but then I realized two thing.

First, the "persistant universe" mechanism they intend to make is quite far from what I was expecting. Basically, it's not a persistent world, its a matchmaking system. You are a trader - someone is a pirate - it puts you up in the same instance so the pirate can hunt you down. I know now much details have been released so far, but this sounds like a hugely beneficial system to the pirates, not to the traders. If I want to avoid combat I should be able to, automatic instancing sounds cheezy. 

Second, I looked at the release dates. Alpha in a year, beta in a year and a half, persistant universe in I believe 30 months. I'm all about backing projects, but we are talking years here, I don't even know if I'll have the time to play online games by that time.

Maybe if they ask for more money when the release dates are a bit closer in the future, I might change my mind.

Originally posted by Cometer

I understand many of the people skepticism over here, bu I made this post because I would love to see a true AAA space sim with this features come true.

We could all debate theories the mechanics of funding but in the end it comes down to this.

- Publishers aren't willing to invest in AAA space sims. And there are plenty of articles talking about this.

So question is. Where do people go if they have a cool project but can't get support from big companies?

- Most crowdfunding projects have one problem. They have little to show.

At least Chris made the effort of creating a tech demo to show what he wants to do. A real-time in engine tech demo. There are plenty of interviews and game footage. He has shown the physics engine working. The landing and launching of a ship. And all that. That tech demo was made by a very small team that invested their own free time and money.

- Mentioning how Chirs Roberts Wing Commander movie sucked leads to nothing. He was/is a great game developer but Wing Commander was his first big screen movie. And he did a bad job. You can be a great game developer and a bad movie director. Nothing wrong with that.  But if people want to discuss his career in the movies then they should also mention his successes. He was the producer of great movies such as Lord Of War and Lucky Number Slevin. And you just need to look at his IMDB page to know more about his movie career. Wing Commander was NOT the only hollywood project he was in. IT simply was his first.

We pay $10 to watch a movie in the cinema that sometimes suck (wing commander :P)

We buy games that cost a lot and that well..suck.

This guy has a proven track record making great games.  Every single Wing Commander game under his wing was a success.

And as far as doing groundbreaking stuff, let me put it this way. Chris was the first game developer to create a multiplayer online universe set in space with real-time combat. And you can check the game yourself to see how good it was/is. So much so that people are still actively playing that game this days. And there are multiple mods created for Freelancer.

http://www.moddb.com/games/freelancer/mods

Chris and his team, are doing a great job answering the community questions. If you have any question just send them an email and they will answer.

If you think their lieing than how would they have the support of companies like Alienware, NVIDIA, Oculus and Logitech?

They're even working closly with Crytek since their using their engine. They have bought a CryEngine license and that doesn't come out cheap.

Yes this companies have seen their tech demo and have offered some of their products as prices for the community. We all know no company wants their name tied to vaporware.

They are in their first year. Obviously they can't show you a full game because there is none. And obviously they can't work on a multi-million $ project without initial funding to pay the developer wages.

But if there is crowdfunding project you can trust, it's this one.

With Chris track record and past successes he doesn't need any money from any of us. He is a rich man already.

Obviously not rich enough to fund a game like this all alone. He would be insane. He is doing this because he trully wants to bring a new AAA space sim.

Simple question for you:

Why not treat the fans with the same level of respect that other investors get?  Give them shares of the company for their money.  This way it truly IS an investment and they can actually hope to see profit if the project comes through?

I am a HUGE fan of WingCommander and somewhere around here I have the original box signed by Chris Roberts and the hat that came with it.   That said, he is not in this as a not for profit entity.  He is in this to make money. That money is going to come from fans... so it has now been taken to a whole new level where he wants fans to donate money so he can make more money from fans. 

Nope. 

Give us a share of the possible eventual profits and I am all ears though.  Then at least I am an investor in a business and not donating to a for profit charity.

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

Originally posted by Cometer

I understand many of the people skepticism over here, bu I made this post because I would love to see a true AAA space sim with this features come true.

We could all debate theories the mechanics of funding but in the end it comes down to this.

- Publishers aren't willing to invest in AAA space sims. And there are plenty of articles talking about this.

So question is. Where do people go if they have a cool project but can't get support from big companies?

- Most crowdfunding projects have one problem. They have little to show.

At least Chris made the effort of creating a tech demo to show what he wants to do. A real-time in engine tech demo. There are plenty of interviews and game footage. He has shown the physics engine working. The landing and launching of a ship. And all that. That tech demo was made by a very small team that invested their own free time and money.

- Mentioning how Chirs Roberts Wing Commander movie sucked leads to nothing. He was/is a great game developer but Wing Commander was his first big screen movie. And he did a bad job. You can be a great game developer and a bad movie director. Nothing wrong with that.  But if people want to discuss his career in the movies then they should also mention his successes. He was the producer of great movies such as Lord Of War and Lucky Number Slevin. And you just need to look at his IMDB page to know more about his movie career. Wing Commander was NOT the only hollywood project he was in. IT simply was his first.

We pay $10 to watch a movie in the cinema that sometimes suck (wing commander :P)

We buy games that cost a lot and that well..suck.

This guy has a proven track record making great games.  Every single Wing Commander game under his wing was a success.

And as far as doing groundbreaking stuff, let me put it this way. Chris was the first game developer to create a multiplayer online universe set in space with real-time combat. And you can check the game yourself to see how good it was/is. So much so that people are still actively playing that game this days. And there are multiple mods created for Freelancer.

http://www.moddb.com/games/freelancer/mods

Chris and his team, are doing a great job answering the community questions. If you have any question just send them an email and they will answer.

If you think their lieing than how would they have the support of companies like Alienware, NVIDIA, Oculus and Logitech?

They're even working closly with Crytek since their using their engine. They have bought a CryEngine license and that doesn't come out cheap.

Yes this companies have seen their tech demo and have offered some of their products as prices for the community. We all know no company wants their name tied to vaporware.

They are in their first year. Obviously they can't show you a full game because there is none. And obviously they can't work on a multi-million $ project without initial funding to pay the developer wages.

But if there is crowdfunding project you can trust, it's this one.

With Chris track record and past successes he doesn't need any money from any of us. He is a rich man already.

Obviously not rich enough to fund a game like this all alone. He would be insane. He is doing this because he trully wants to bring a new AAA space sim.

Simple question for you:

 

Why not treat the fans with the same level of respect that other investors get?  Give them shares of the company for their money.  This way it truly IS an investment and they can actually hope to see profit if the project comes through?

 

I am a HUGE fan of WingCommander and somewhere around here I have the original box signed by Chris Roberts and the hat that came with it.   That said, he is not in this as a not for profit entity.  He is in this to make money. That money is going to come from fans... so it has now been taken to a whole new level where he wants fans to donate money so he can make more money from fans. 

 

Nope. 

 

Give us a share of the possible eventual profits and I am all ears though.  Then at least I am an investor in a business and not donating to a for profit charity.

 

 

Normally, I'm not at all interested in investing in game companies.  They tend to be high risk investments at best.  But I will support a game that I find interesting and hope that it turns out to be entertaining.  If you are happy with the games that the suits keep cranking out, then more power to you. 

But at this time I'm much more interested in seeing what Chris Roberts can come up with.  Its a matter of marginal utility.  I value the possibility of getting a good game out of this, more than I do the money I used to support it.  If it doesn't work out, at least I tried, and I'm not out that much at all.