Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Still waiting for that list of great unique oldschool styled AAA MMOs.

You really think i will waste my time giving you more names so that you can just shrug it off because they aren't good enough for you? i am sorry but no thanks. I am not here to convert you or anything.

Also you keep throwigng AAA now in every post but your original argument wasn't about AAA old school MMOS but well made old school MMOS regardless of how much money is spent on it.

If you aren't going to attempt to debate then you shouldn't keep posting in the thread.

And people don't generally play underfunded half broken indie games, which seem to be the "MMOs" you're referencing.

But no, keep on believing that there isn't a large audience of oldschool gamers waiting for the next real MMO. Keep blinding yourself to the fact that the majority of threads on this site are about exactly that.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Still waiting for that list of great unique oldschool styled AAA MMOs.

You really think i will waste my time giving you more names so that you can just shrug it off because they aren't good enough for you? i am sorry but no thanks. I am not here to convert you or anything.

Also you keep throwigng AAA now in every post but your original argument wasn't about AAA old school MMOS but well made old school MMOS regardless of how much money is spent on it.

If you aren't going to attempt to debate then you shouldn't keep posting in the thread.

And people don't generally play underfunded half broken indie games, which seem to be the "MMOs" you're referencing.

But no, keep on believing that there isn't a large audience of oldschool gamers waiting for the next real MMO. Keep blinding yourself to the fact that the majority of threads on this site are about exactly that.

I have been debating for all this time i just don't want to 'continue ' the debate. There is difference. I have no intention to bang my head against the wall.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

If you aren't going to attempt to debate then you shouldn't keep posting in the thread.

And people don't generally play underfunded half broken indie games, which seem to be the "MMOs" you're referencing.

But no, keep on believing that there isn't a large audience of oldschool gamers waiting for the next real MMO. Keep blinding yourself to the fact that the majority of threads on this site are about exactly that.

People generally say one thing but buy another.

Look at every 'Boycott COD / FIFA / EA games / Acti Games' ever.

People keep on bringing up this mystical 'hidden gamer base that is just waiting for X' but there is no proof that it exists.

If a business invests millions of dollars to create something without any concrete data that there is a market, that's not good business.

Whether you think a business should or shouldn't do is irrelevant unless you are willing to front up the millions yourself.

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

If you aren't going to attempt to debate then you shouldn't keep posting in the thread.

And people don't generally play underfunded half broken indie games, which seem to be the "MMOs" you're referencing.

But no, keep on believing that there isn't a large audience of oldschool gamers waiting for the next real MMO. Keep blinding yourself to the fact that the majority of threads on this site are about exactly that.

People generally say one thing but buy another.

Look at every 'Boycott COD / FIFA / EA games / Acti Games' ever.

People keep on bringing up this mystical 'hidden gamer base that is just waiting for X' but there is no proof that it exists.

It's not hidden.

There is more evidence to suggest that core MMORPGs are successful than there is to suggest that themeparks are where the money is. We didn't have failures as gargantuan as most of the themeparks over the last 8 years.

The problem is, publishers don't have their finger on the pulse of the MMORPG community, they take a cursory glance, see WoW is doing well, and go "copy that". The people that actually know how to make a good MMO don't get publisher backing most of the time.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

It's not hidden.

There is more evidence to suggest that core MMORPGs are successful than there is to suggest that themeparks are where the money is. We didn't have failures as gargantuan as most of the themeparks over the last 8 years.

The problem is, publishers don't have their finger on the pulse of the MMORPG community, they take a cursory glance, see WoW is doing well, and go "copy that". The people that actually know how to make a good MMO don't get publisher backing most of the time.

And what evidence is that?

In terms of actual evidence, all I see are themeparks making more $$$ then sandboxes.

I'm just stating factual numbers.

Whether you like those factual numbers or not is irrelevant.

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

It's not hidden.

There is more evidence to suggest that core MMORPGs are successful than there is to suggest that themeparks are where the money is. We didn't have failures as gargantuan as most of the themeparks over the last 8 years.

The problem is, publishers don't have their finger on the pulse of the MMORPG community, they take a cursory glance, see WoW is doing well, and go "copy that". The people that actually know how to make a good MMO don't get publisher backing most of the time.

And what evidence is that?

In terms of actual evidence, all I see are themeparks making more $$$ then sandboxes.

I'm just stating factual numbers.

Whether you like those factual numbers or not is irrelevant.

You see WoW making more than Eve. What other themepark is beating Eve?

Group Finder is lazy.

Though, it depends on what the group finder does.  If it is used as an in-game advertisement of your group that is looking or the player that is looking for a group, and then allowing those two parties to group up, then that's fine.  However, how it is often used today, is that not only does it group you, it teleports both parties together, and at their desired location.  So for instance, a city, a quest location, a PvP location, a dungeon, etc.

That type of group finder literally destroys all of the hard work that the designers spent hours slaving over just because people are too damn lazy to travel ten minutes to get to wherever they want to be.  The sad part is that the people have the money, and what the people want is what the people will get.

There are a few things that prevent me from playing a game anymore.  No housing is one, instant adventure style questing (like group finder), and kill streak rewards that unbalance the game(Yes, I'm taking a shot at COD).  There may be some others, but those are the big ones, and I just can't ook past them.

Originally posted by funyahns

Originally posted by jpnz

 

And what evidence is that?

In terms of actual evidence, all I see are themeparks making more $$$ then sandboxes.

I'm just stating factual numbers.

Whether you like those factual numbers or not is irrelevant.

You see WoW making more than Eve. What other themepark is beating Eve?

How about Aion?

How about SWTOR (latest is 500k-1M)?

Here's another question, name one other sandbox MMO other than EVE that's above 100k subs?

By the way I always reference factual numbers rather than 'my guild died so MMO X is dying!'.

To stay on topic, even EVE-Online has a 'group finder'. Yeah, that's right. The largest sandbox MMO has a group finder.

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by funyahns

Originally posted by jpnz

 

And what evidence is that?

In terms of actual evidence, all I see are themeparks making more $$$ then sandboxes.

I'm just stating factual numbers.

Whether you like those factual numbers or not is irrelevant.

You see WoW making more than Eve. What other themepark is beating Eve?

How about Aion?

How about SWTOR (latest is 500k-1M)?

Here's another question, name one other sandbox MMO other than EVE that's above 100k subs?

By the way I always reference factual numbers rather than 'my guild died so MMO X is dying!'.

Aion makes what? They are pretty popular overseas from my understanding.  Not sure the numbers in the West,  ToR developers said they needed at least 500k subs to break even.  They are going FtP, so they are having issues. Eve is far cheaper to run, and they have been going at it for years.

 No idea of any other Sandbox game on the market. I hear about Darkfall and Mortal, but they are not sandboxes.  There is Wurm and Xyson, but I would rather play Minecraft than them.

I am not a big supporter of Sandboxes, I think they have a place and could possibly do well.  I was an Eq player and Vanguard after that.

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

It's not hidden.

There is more evidence to suggest that core MMORPGs are successful than there is to suggest that themeparks are where the money is. We didn't have failures as gargantuan as most of the themeparks over the last 8 years.

The problem is, publishers don't have their finger on the pulse of the MMORPG community, they take a cursory glance, see WoW is doing well, and go "copy that". The people that actually know how to make a good MMO don't get publisher backing most of the time.

And what evidence is that?

In terms of actual evidence, all I see are themeparks making more $$$ then sandboxes.

I'm just stating factual numbers.

Whether you like those factual numbers or not is irrelevant.

Christ, this isn't about sandboxes, why do you WoW fans always try to cast everything that isn't a WoWclone a sandbox?

If we take FACTS, TRENDS, and HISTORY into account, as a model, themeparks do not work and do not keep people playing long term.

Oldschool MMOs though, did.

Old MMOs grew over time and peaked years after release.

New MMOs peak at launch and collapse right away.

Where are all these incredibly successful themepark games? AoC, collapsed and died so harshly that it bankrupted two of Funcom's sister companies. Aion died in the west almost right away. WAR, dead as a doornail. DCUO, never got off the ground. STO, imploded in a spectacular fashion. SWG, as soon as it became a themepark, dead. DAoC, as soon as it became a themepark, dead. SWTOR, died so hard it took a huge chunk out of the biggest gaming company in the world. Rift, has already had to merge servers about 3-4 times.

None of these games have been very big successes. Hell, I'd bet whoever is running AoC would do a backflip in joy if it suddenly had as many subs as a modestly successful oldschool game, like UO.

Themeparks are designed for people to play them like singleplayer games burn through the content, and leave. It is not a sustainable business model. You need features that tie people to the world, you need mechanics that allow PLAYERS to generate experiences, not the game to dictate them.

If themepark game swere designed and budgeted with this in mind, and sold more as online COOP games with monthly content packs, they'd probably do better. But publishers don't want fair and reasonable pricing, they want WoW, so they make a half assed online game and slap a monthly fee on it, and are dismayed when afterwards they realize no one is sticking around long enough for them to make any money off the monthly fee.

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by funyahns

Originally posted by jpnz

 

And what evidence is that?

In terms of actual evidence, all I see are themeparks making more $$$ then sandboxes.

I'm just stating factual numbers.

Whether you like those factual numbers or not is irrelevant.

You see WoW making more than Eve. What other themepark is beating Eve?

How about Aion?

How about SWTOR (latest is 500k-1M)?

Here's another question, name one other sandbox MMO other than EVE that's above 100k subs?

By the way I always reference factual numbers rather than 'my guild died so MMO X is dying!'.

 

To stay on topic, even EVE-Online has a 'group finder'. Yeah, that's right. The largest sandbox MMO has a group finder.

It actually doesn't, not the same kind of group finder that we're discussing here.

Here's another question, name one other AAA sandbox MMO that's been made in the last 8 years? ...oh right, none!

Kind of hard to stack one up with Eve.

And SWTOR does not have anything remotely close to 500k subs. They're down to about 8 servers and shrinking. Most of the devs have been fired, and those who haven't have quit.

And Aion has basically no pressence in the west. It's entirely free and there's no way to judge how many subs it has. And its the western market we're talking about here. Because if we get Asia involved, WoW isn't the king over there.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

It actually doesn't, not the same kind of group finder that we're discussing here.

Here's another question, name one other AAA sandbox MMO that's been made in the last 8 years? ...oh right, none!

Kind of hard to stack one up with Eve.

And SWTOR does not have anything remotely close to 500k subs. They're down to about 8 servers and shrinking. Most of the devs have been fired, and those who haven't have quit.

And Aion has basically no pressence in the west. It's entirely free and there's no way to judge how many subs it has. And its the western market we're talking about here. Because if we get Asia involved, WoW isn't the king over there.

I must have not wrote the 'factual numbers' on my post (oh wait I DID!) since I deal with numbers that we know are true until proven otherwise.

I don't use numbers that are essentially 'my guild died so MMO X is dying!'.

Like I said, whether you like those numbers or not is irrelevant since they won't suddenly become false just because you don't like them.

EVE-Online has 'fleet finder' and while it doesn't totally work like WoW's LFG system, its pretty close to it in game design.

Trying to make it harder for people to group up and do XYZ just for the sake of 'immersion' in an MMO has very niche appeal.

1. People seem to forget that we are still playing games - not virtual worlds that are suppose to be 100% realistic. 

2. The Raid/Group finder filled a need in WoW.  It made it so you no longer have to sit in a capital city and spam "LFG" or "LFR", sometimes for hours on end.  Blizzard steamlined and improved the process and only non-WoW players seem to cry foul.

3. Players in low population servers have the same chance of finding a group  as players in high population servers.

4. Implementation of real ID allows you to stay connected (and even queue up) with people that you meet from different servers.  I have made a few friends this way.

5. The Raid/Group finder automatically determines if you are geared enough for that content.  Back in the day players would have to do manual gear checks.  Since that time, Blizzard has streamlined the process.  (Nobody found it fun to sit and spam for a group all day anyways).   Yes WoW is a gear grind.  Yes the end goal is achieving the best gear and bragging rights.  Blizzard has never tried to pretend this is NOT the case.

6. Better loot still drops from raiding with a guild.  Raiders are still alive and flourishing.  They still develop friendship and rivalries, they still experience success and failure, they still have drama and bonding experiences, they are still like they were in 2004.

7. Even if raid and group finders made the PvE side of WoW less sociable (which it didn't), who cares? There are still multiple ways to socialize outside of doing dungeons and participating in the Raid finder system.

Typical haters.  Trying to hate on features that actually improve a game.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

They didn't ruin the genre alone. Instances were the first blow, then quest based leveling after that. And then phasing after that.

 

There is pretty much ZERO difference now between MMOs and Diablo.

 

It's really, REALLY pathetic.

110% agreed...

     Instancing was the first blow.. When EQ came out with LDoN, all I could think was "Is this the beginning of the end to social gaming"?   From where I sit, it was..  A good portion of the game was the socalizing, whether it be learning a new language, or finding out locations to tweak your character and skills.. Back in the day, chat moved reguardless of the zone you were in.. Nowadays, I log on to any game and barely see a "HI".. Even in guild chat there isn't much going on besides someone asking to be powerleveled, or needing crafting help..  The genre just isn't the same anymore.. 

     I wish I could abolish quest leveling and phasing as well..  Those work ok in single player RPG games on the Xbox, but have no use in a true MMORPG.. In my opinion..

Guys, guys... You have to remember that there are people who want the game to be as inconvenient as possible to force players to "socialize". They are seemingly against all accessibility and user-friendliness, so they can feel superior because their game is "hardcore". They don't like the fact that you can enjoy a game right away, on your own time and possibly all by yourself. They want you to spend hours preparing and hours doing something that supports the "having fun"but is not itself the fun, because they think that the effort they put into it makes it somehow better.

The highs only feel so high because the contrast between the highs and lows is so great. Vast majority of the times you'll be in the low, so any high is welcome. To some its enough, to most (I think) its not. That is why I quit Eve: The highs weren't frequent or high enough to justify the constant low. Point is, there is no greater high in what these people refer to "real MMOs" or "hardcore games". The good moments feel great only because the rest of the time, the game is so bad.

Originally posted by Rydeson
Qui........ can you clear that up more ^^^^^

What? The highs and lows?

Originally posted by Axxar
I think there should be easy to use tools for setting up groups. What I dislike are the things they tend to bring which compromise an MMO's worldspace, such as teleporting you to a dungeon for no apparent reason and putting you in a group with people that aren't even relevant to your server.

I agree.. ( I think )..   I personally dislike all the quick travel in today's games.. zip zip poof.. I'm here...   I'm not much of a fan of random grouping with people that aren't even on your server..  However, that being said I would be very open to allowing people to "sign" up.. for grouping.. This being different that is only tags you as "LFG" within your own server ONLY, and does not auto group..   This way people don't have to spam chat LFG..  I'm still old school and wish game devs would find better ways to promote a community.. I know I can, but then how do I get hired without inside contacts.. LOL