Probably hop.

EQ2 still feels the same, but a lot of content.

City of Villains really streamlined CoH's design, plus they got an interesting update coming up.

Nothing else really out there.

I don't know why I didn't mention it in my bump post, I had played CoH and EQ2 within a month of making the post.  Not being able to get back into either was what made me post.  Bit of a waste of money for the reactivation month in each game except when I do EQ2, because I usually play a million hours on an alt for a month and then not have the money to keep the account going (I seem to have bad timing with that game, heh.)  It was the first time I'd unsubscribed from CoH willingly.

Try FFXI. It's a grouping MMO, nearly everyone is always grouping. It's easy to find groups(if you join the right server). However, soloing is slow and hard but it is possible.

Originally posted by Desirsar

Finally got around to trying Darkfall.  Game looks decent, I love the skill system and combat system, hate that there's nothing to do but grind skills or kill other players.  So much so, that someone followed me around (still under protection) for quite a while waiting to see if I'd die to PvE enemies, and looted my corpse when I did.  I'd put away two sets of equipment in the bank, but that's still too much of an indication of a lack of compelling PvE content.  Make a game with Darkfall's combat and everything else (full PvP included!) in a world the size and depth of EQ1 and you'd have something.  (And with a functional alignment system.  Planetside certainly did it right...)

Anything else I haven't tried that might be decent?

Thats funny because I have pretty much never grind and very rarely PVP.

There is a lot to do in the game besides PVP. It is currently my GFs favorite game and she hasnt grind either and hates PVP and actually plays more than I do.

You actually find a lot less PVP when you get more developed in the game unless you go out and find it. The starter areas are very unpreditable and can have a lot of PVP at any time in random spots.

We are very excited for the PVE patch coming this month! wooot! I love the PVE in this game . .. new environmental sounds will be added and treasure maps and total PVE/dungeon/quest revamp so I am excited to put on my headphones and totally get into it.

I wish that there were more games out there with that more realistic Oblivion feel but there just isnt. That would be the best game by far if the PVE was as in depth as the original EQ . ..!! I have been playing it for 16 months and havent even been through all the dungeons and seen all of the world yet . .. it is pretty fun to travel and live out of somewhere new how it is now but yeah I am really excited to see what happens to it within the next year.

Looks like you have already tried my favorite games.

What about AC? Have you tried those? Great PVP but you have to flag yourself so you dont have to if you do not want to.

I actually uninstalled Darkfall as soon as I logged off after a marathon seven hour start, I suppose I'll download it again and try moving far away from a starter town.  I never got far enough in to bother trying grouping, how is it for finding groups easily?  Is there much in the way  of  "dungeon crawl" type areas currently in the game?

Originally posted by Desirsar

I actually uninstalled Darkfall as soon as I logged off after a marathon seven hour start, I suppose I'll download it again and try moving far away from a starter town.  I never got far enough in to bother trying grouping, how is it for finding groups easily?  Is there much in the way  of  "dungeon crawl" type areas currently in the game?

I would say that it is most similar to Oblivion when it comes to the depth of the dungeon but they are all still fun to explore and they are all original. I was disappointed with how large the dungeons in Oblivion were compared to Morrowind and same for Darkfall, although they are awesome many of them are not very big. This is probably why they are redoing all of them and adding more reasons to visit them this month. I have yet to see half of them and I have been playing for 16 months. I am excited for the revamp! For what it is now, I still love it, but definitely could use lots more stuff added.

You dont find groups in Darkfall like you can in most MMOs. You cannot trust anybody until you get to know them. Join a good clan and there will always be fun stuff to do and people to group with. Make sure that if you are going to play that you find like-minded people. The people who you do end up grouping with will probably become good friends with you compared to people who you group with in other games because you will go through many good times and bad times together, unlike other games where everything is made easier and failing doesn't matter.

Oops I didn't see that you meant the game 'rogue'. I loved that game!! Hehe

Sandbox games like Darkfall, MO, etc. are the closest that you can get to rogue-like MMO. Hopefully there will be more options in the future.

Your picture makes me think of how fun a cowboy bebop MMO would be . ..!! hrmm . .. ever tried EVE? It is also sandbox so unpreditable without really an end-game as well.

Cowboy Bebop MMO?  Jumpgate has the space flight, if that's what part you want.  Being able to get out of your ship to finish off hunting criminals would perfect that, but I haven't seen a good space game where you aren't a ship all the time.

Clearing space now to reinstall Darkfall, I suppose I'll spend the first while looking at clan forums.

Did Darkfall, joined one of the most powerful guilds on the server.  They were very helpful, defending our holdings was interesting, and my FPS and artillery game experience helped tremendously at archery.  Forced onto a bad wifi connection, Darkfall doesn't handle latency at all (not just "poorly", if you drop packets ever, you might as well not even try to play), and I stopped to save the money and until I could get my proper connection back.

Gave Asheron's Call a try, but it's dead at the low levels and starting town.  If I wanted to have to solo to catch the high level population just to find people who are grouping at a given level range, I'd go bore myself with WoW.

Looking for a new game (or not new) again, decided it wasn't quite what I was looking for, so here I am back at this thread, bumping for great justice.

Emphasis this time :  People always on.  Lots of people.  Not just the top-heavy hardcore population.  Always someone to group with at all levels.  Game design allows for soloing, but people will actually WANT to group at all levels (either because the game is hard or because they give bonus XP or soemthing else mechanical.)  Large world.  Questy bits that actually take some thought from the player.  Randomish monster spawns and dungeons (procedurally generated games are awesome - see roguelikes or Spelunky.)  Player crafted items are very functional, yet rare (scarce?  To use an economics term), and crafting does not have a painful interface.  Classless and levelless a plus.  Experience should be based on how much time is spent actively playing the game, and a "busy" and effective new player *will* make significant strides on a complacent veteran.  (Does it sound like that that one explicitly excludes EVE?  It is meant to.)  Genre is unimportant, but can't be outright silly.

Most of all, the game must look like it was published by a competent company with a decent sized staff, preferably who knows how to test their own game for bugs without basically beta testing on the end user.  Graphics aren't a big deal (my Atari 2600 is still hooked up to my TV right now), but they are one sign that the game is well designed.

Yes, I know I ask too much, but I am really getting sick of making new characters or parties in Neverwinter Nights 2, or having to always fall back to roguelikes (Incursion and ADoM, mostly.)

Let's try two years later...  out of college, have a job.  Only things that hold my attention or interest for long are World of Tanks and Football Superstars.  I maintain my Station Pass or All Access or whatever they call it this week, but I rarely use it.  I have an active EVE account and There.com account as well.  I still play Neverwinter Nights 2 weekly, trying random character classes and races and trying to do anything with the storyline I haven't (there really isn't anything left, I have every bit of voice acting from the first act of the first campaign memorized.)

Does my game exist yet?  Sandbox, procedurally generated inside a persistant world (instancing at a minimum), deep crafting, player economy, skills instead of levels is a plus, PvP can exist but PvE should be the focus.  The theme and genre largely do not matter (since my preference is Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms, and I know I'm not getting that.)

Edit - Yes, I have Minecraft.  That's a single player Rogue-like, not an MMO.

Have you looked into FF14?
Its getting a huge revamp very soon.

Have you looked at Fallen Earth?  I have just recently picked it up but it seems to have most of the qualities stated in you original post.   Worth a look.  It seems to have a crafting system that matters, anyway. 

Good luck in your search.

FFXI has changed alot over the years, but the core stuff is still there. BCNM Fights every 10 levels starting at lvl 20. Escort missions through dungeons which require a full-allience at lvl 20, which is 18 ppl. BTW a full group in FFXI is 6 ppl, full alience is where you group up 2 or 3 groups of ppl together. Back when i played ffxi had a really strong community, and i've heard it still like that today.

Although FFXI has changed, there are some ppl who would like to play the old-school way. Grouping up together leveling, doing low level BCNM fights, (those are a boss fight instance) and there leveld caped and challenging. On the FFXI forumns here on mmorpg.com i saw a post that started a linkshell, aka guild, for likeminded ppl who want to level the old fation way and to group up to do missions, quest's, ect. Should check that out.

Crafting in FFXI is deffinitly hardcore. Its basically goes from 0.1 - 1.0. EX craft an item, you may get .1 or .2 from it, but not always. Sometimes youll craft like 6 times or more before a .1, depends on luck. Crafts go up to 100, well alittle higher now since recent update. So basically you could craft like 20 items just to go up 1 level with a craft. But on the flipside since they raised the level cap, i dont see why crafting matters anymore, ecept maybe cooking and alchemy.  

I tried getting into mmo's again recently with GW 2, but only played it for 2 months. On the other hand back in 2003 when FFXI first launched i played that for over 2 years non-stop before taking a break. IMO FFXI is the last great group based MMORPG, even with the changes you can avoid some of that and play the old way.

The thing that changed FFXI was Abysea which is an alternate zone you go to beginning at lvl 30. But you can avoid that place completly since its a seprete instance from the rest of the game.

Path of Exile is not my type.  Final Fantasy anything is not my type (as an MMO.  I like the single player RPGs.)  Had GW1, never played it after the first week.  Tried to get back into AO, EQ, EQ2, DDO, Vanguard, or Planetside in the past couple days, but none of them are really "sticking", and I think it's for the same reason.

Let's make it simpler, then : None of the games above.  No WoW, no SWTOR.  People grouping in pick up groups AROUND THE CLOCK, players using the LFG tools available to them rather than spamming chat, and a preference toward groups that form first and decide what to try to do after.  Hell, if it even exists, a game that is impossible to progress solo would be fine.

Edit - Small groups.  Not raids.  Waiting on account support to try Fallen Earth.

Mabinogi. Great for groups - when doing a dungeon run or one of the main storylines. Crafting is important - a player can make better quality ones than NPC's sell. Fully dyable gear. Tons of hair/face options. A weight/age system that includes hunger and such. The best pet system I know of (pet's can have there custom AI set by you, you can play as your pets even to level them up). Fully skill-based character development. There's levels, but they're only used to gain AP to rank your skills higher (tons of skills from melee abilities to crafting). Tons of RP elements (players can make there own music in game, you can do part time jobs for NPC's, weddings and such). And best of all, an action combat system that rewards player skill over zerging. If a mob is walking slow at you with an agressive stance, they're defending. If they stand still, they have counter loaded. Smash > defending, windmill > counter, etc. And that's just melee skills.

It's a very different game though. It's not really gear oriented - all cloth armor has the same stats, all medium has the same stats, etc. There's enchants an enchanter can put on your gear, but it makes a marginal difference most of the time. People play to rank there skills and complete the storylines.

Ha, I saw the first post in the thread and wondered what would bring this now five-year old thread back from the dead :D

I would recommend Torchlight 2 but the low population might turn you off. I enjoy TL2 because it offers a single-player experience which you can take into multiplayer and LAN groups. Plus, it's got various difficulty presets, hardcore, and game mode difficulty progression (NG, NG+, etc).

Also, try giving Rift a go if you haven't already. The RIFT Lite version lets you play content up to level 20 with no restrictions. Plus, they just released a major expansion pack that tripled world size, added end game content, and changed the 1-50 leveling. The soul system received a bit of fixing as well and I believed they introduced a new soul as well. Of course, the Rift dynamic does get a bit tedious but I find them exciting, as well as the scripted invasions from planes.

Also, keep an eye on Age of Wushu/Age of Wulin in the near future. It's a martial arts MMO that resembles 9Dragons. Age of Wushu is set to release in February '13 but Wulin is releasing before that if I'm not mistaken.

I dont know if someone already suggested but you should give Continent of Ninth a try. Its pretty much a dungeon crawler though, crafting system isnt the best, however it isnt too tedious to do (plenty of resources from running dungeons + daily quests giving crafting materials). 

About grouping, well I think the C9 fits almsot perfectly on what you are looking. You can solo dungeons if you want, you can form groups through party searcher, also I havent noticed anything about monsters becoming harder when more people are in party, its jsut that if you cant handle the higher difficulties. So whats the point of partying? Well couple of reasons:

1. Intrusion, adds PvP into dungeons (there is also arena). Intrusion is basically extra thrill for dungeons. Dont worry it can be turned off. You can party up with people and try to steal someones dungeon by force without spending any stamina. There is also extra exp from allowing intrusion. Also defending against intrusion has rewards if you kill the intruders. Nothing is more fun that battling against dungeon mobs and 3 intruders solo on master difficulty :P Bad side is dungeon can prolong for hour long if the intruders are any good :P

2. Stamina, you spend less stamina when doing dungeons with party. However its not big difference (there is some calculations how party affects on stamina consumption)

Cant say about lore, all I know is there is 9 continents lol. So cant comment on the roleplay part. People say though that C9 is PvP oriented, but the PvE part has kept me entertained along with crafting. Havent done any PvP in arena, plenty of defending against intrusion and doing intrusion though. Also I must say, its pretty easy to level up, so it is not too grindy game, hence people call it PvP oriented game. There is some truth though, intrusion system is interesting system which is basically PvP, but as I said you dont have to allow intrusion if you dont want to.

Fallen Earth wasn't it.  (In no small part due to their breaking of their own, mostly working crafting system.)  Hawken and MWO aren't really MMOs in the sense that I'm looking for, but I'm also still playing both of those.

I'm still very put off of Neverwinter for not using 3.5 rules, but I'll probably try it anyway.  Is there anything left worth trying?  I found a site showing the subscription numbers for many games, and I'm surprised at which ones are large at all, and how small everything else really is.  I think my problem will always be that companies have found a way to make a profit in the diluted market, games aren't driven out of the market nearly fast enough if they aren't hugely successful, and so they don't aim for being the next WoW anymore, and the lack of effort and resources shows.

Is it too much to ask for a game where fights are hard, and dying matters?  Where there is a good crafting system, or none at all and the game is so good you don't even notice?  Where the world is dynamic enough that people can't quote to you from memory the quest progression from start to cap?

Presently spamming alts at Champions Online.  I get annoyed when the low level content is sparse and linear, because I like to try every type of character, and would prefer doing something different each time.  Now that I have six characters between 15 and 20, they're each doing totally different content, purely out of coincidence.  I'll be playing that until I run out of new things to shoot with lasers, punch, cast spells on, claw, blast, slice with swords...  yeah.

Finding "that game" would still pull me away from it, of course.