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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is the problem really that MMORPGs aren't hard anymore?

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231 posts found
  Fusion

Old School

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 1364

11/13/12 12:29:00 PM#141
Originally posted by furidiam

Games used to be made by gamers for gamers. Now it is corporations going after gamers wallets. This is what made games now a days what they are.

The only truth behind this discussion.

Currently playing: -

Waiting for: Class4.

Dead and Buried: ESO, NWO, GW2, SWTOR, Darkfall, AO, AC2, Vanguard, CoH/V, EnB, EVE, Neocron, FE, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, FFXI, FFXIV, SWG, WoW, and billions of eastern junks!

  Greymantle4

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 740

11/13/12 12:31:09 PM#142
Originally posted by Fusion
Originally posted by furidiam

Games used to be made by gamers for gamers. Now it is corporations going after gamers wallets. This is what made games now a days what they are.

The only truth behind this discussion.

Sad to say but true. Fast food for the masses!

  MurlockDance

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1216

11/13/12 12:34:51 PM#143

Hmm, I have thought a lot about this lately, but I don't think it is really the "challenge" or lack of. To me it is more the kind of content a lot of devs are releasing. As someone said, games are so incredibly on-rails today, and that is partly the fault of the heavy quest hub style of play. I think a mix of dynamic events, quests, and the like can be balanced to make a decent experience, as well as an immersive world. I also would make most of today's quests tasks like in DAoC and have really long and difficult quests only. In my opinion, a quest should be epic, but a task mundane.

I do think that GW2 has some very nice world elements to it and is perhaps one of the nicest worlds to be released lately. It is not entirely there yet, but close. I like its more open-world feel, even if some of it is still instanced. I like how the personal story is told, and the fact that the mundane tasks are bumped into as you run around exploring the world.

Now if some of the old world mechanics from EQ1 up to DAoC were added back in, like the fantasticly deep character customization and gear customization of classic DAoC, that would make for an amazing game!

Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/13/12 12:35:03 PM#144
Originally posted by Zeppelin4

You don't give up do you. If I have to go to the extremes to have any challenge let alone fun don't you think there is something wrong? The progression in wow (gear, crafting) is a huge part on what is fun as you level. Without that what do you have left? If you want to play that way by all means go right ahead. I left the game and looked else where. The problem is I'm still looking but that is another story. 

Why should I give it up?  You position is basically an insincere exaggeration, and has always been so.  People were pointing out the basic flaws in the 'ezmode' arguments from the day UO opened.

Next game you hit?  Provided it's similarly gear-based, you'll again purchase/twink/enchant/collect every advantage you can acquire, in order to make leveling easier.  And you'll again complain that leveling is now too easy.

Do you not see the snake eating its tail?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Greymantle4

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 740

11/13/12 12:39:36 PM#145
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Zeppelin4

You don't give up do you. If I have to go to the extremes to have any challenge let alone fun don't you think there is something wrong? The progression in wow (gear, crafting) is a huge part on what is fun as you level. Without that what do you have left? If you want to play that way by all means go right ahead. I left the game and looked else where. The problem is I'm still looking but that is another story. 

Why should I give it up?  You position is basically an insincere exaggeration, and has always been so.  People were pointing out the basic flaws in the 'ezmode' arguments from the day UO opened.

Next game you hit?  Provided it's similarly gear-based, you'll again purchase/twink/enchant/collect every advantage you can acquire, in order to make leveling easier.  And you'll again complain that leveling is now too easy.

Do you not see the snake eating its tail?

OH I see so if you use the game mechanics and the game becomes to easy I'm the snake eating the tail. Ok next time I will skip gear, dungeons, skills, etc.. so I can find this challenge you keep bringing up.  Oh wait I'm not playing a game anymore. What fun do you find in this? 

 

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4813

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/13/12 12:42:43 PM#146
Originally posted by Zeppelin4
Originally posted by Fusion
Originally posted by furidiam

Games used to be made by gamers for gamers. Now it is corporations going after gamers wallets. This is what made games now a days what they are.

The only truth behind this discussion.

Sad to say but true. Fast food for the masses!

And yet the two biggest gamnes that arguably started the market (EQ and UO) were both developed if not wholly (As in UO) at least partially (as in EQ) by corporations.

UO was released in 1997 by Origin.  EA bought Origin in 1992

EQ was first thought up by 989 studios which was a division of Sony Computer Entertainment America.  Later a new company Verant was spun out in 1999 then later rejoined Sony in 2000.  So Sony had a hand in EQ from the very beginning. 

Games have really never been made by gamers for gamers (there are the one off ones that are). They have largely always been made by corporations making a product they feel will appeal to their particular audience.

The process has always been:  A particular developer had an idea and then sold it to a corporation that was willing to fund it.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

11/13/12 12:49:41 PM#147
Originally posted by makii
Originally posted by ozmono

I wonder if people look at MMOs at a time when they enjoyed them better and start attributing the inevitable decline of interest with them on things like difficulty. Or in other words are people just wearing nostalgia glasses or is game difficulty really so much worse nowdays and as detrimental to current MMOs as some would have you believe?

 

We do not want harder mmos, dont you understand ? back then people complained when mmos were to hardcore and didnt appeal to the mass, now some of you complain they are to easy- but thats what the mass really wanted back then.

Actually that is not true. Some want it easier, and some want it harder. Just look at say .. the official wow forums. There are people on EITHER side.

That means the only reasonable solution is to have difficulty sliders and give people choices. There is no one size fit all.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

11/13/12 12:51:38 PM#148
Originally posted by ShakyMo
The problem is they aren't mmorpgs any more

They are either orpgs - swtor, tsw, wow once you've leveled

Or they are mmogs - planetside 2

That is not a problem for me. A good game is a good game. I will play Diablo 3 whether it is called a online ARPG, or a MMO. And not being a mmo has nothing to do with challenges.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/13/12 12:55:16 PM#149
Originally posted by Zeppelin4

OH I see so if you use the game mechanics and the game becomes to easy I'm the snake eating the tail. Ok next time I will skip gear, dungeons, skills, etc.. so I can find this challenge you keep bringing up.  Oh wait I'm not playing a game anymore. What fun do you find in this? 

 

I haven't even mentioned the advantage of years of experience in a given system imparts on the users.

You said you wanted a harder game.  Presumably, you don't want to leave the game you have so much time invested in.

That leaves it up to you--to make your own challenges.

There pretty much isn't another choice, except to go game-shopping.  Ask the Disposessed on mmorpg.com (as a group) how well that's worked out for them, the last decade or so.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

11/13/12 12:55:42 PM#150
Originally posted by Zeppelin4
 

For my wife and I Wow was our favotire game for leveling. Its sad what they did to that game and I really have no idea why. Nerfs to mobs, phasing, speed leveling, account gear, sigh, you made me cry. :(

Phasing - i have no problem with .. have nothing to do with difficulty of the game.

speed leveling - i also have no problem with. I am leveling my alt in Diablo 3 on high monster power, and it is much faster than before. However, it is still fun as long as there is a challenge .. and it is there with high monster power.

account gear - it is not a problem if you can up the difficulty.

It boils down to this .... given reasonable gear (and i include account gear), fights are too easy. In fact, if you do dungeons (LFD) for leveling, you can just dps the boss without worrying ANY mechanics and he usually dies in seconds. Why? Because everyone is over-gear with account gear and blues.

The solution is simple .. just put a difficulty slider in the LFD like Diablo 3. If you scale the boss hp by 10x, its damage by 3x, and xp award/gold by say 50% ... it will be fun again. Now you have to calibrate the numbers right, but it can be done.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

11/13/12 12:56:56 PM#151
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Zeppelin4

OH I see so if you use the game mechanics and the game becomes to easy I'm the snake eating the tail. Ok next time I will skip gear, dungeons, skills, etc.. so I can find this challenge you keep bringing up.  Oh wait I'm not playing a game anymore. What fun do you find in this? 

 

I haven't even mentioned the advantage of years of experience in a given system imparts on the users.

You said you wanted a harder game.  Presumably, you don't want to leave the game you have so much time invested in.

That leaves it up to you--to make your own challenges.

There pretty much isn't another choice, except to go game-shopping.  Ask the Disposessed on mmorpg.com (as a group) how well that's worked out for them, the last decade or so.

Personally i will leave the game if it is not fun. Time invested is just the sulk cost fallacy. Do i really want to throw away more time into a non-fun game?

I stopped playing WOW because it is not fun. I am still playing Diablo 3 because it still is. When it stops to be fun for me, i will seek other entertainment.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/13/12 12:59:09 PM#152
Originally posted by nariusseldon

That means the only reasonable solution is to have difficulty sliders and give people choices. There is no one size fit all.

WoW may not be able to do that.

Note--even when they determined to scale instances ("EZ" "Hardmode"), they did it via hardcoding.  Fixed bosses, loot tables.

Wait for the mythical Titan project, I guess.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Greymantle4

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 740

11/13/12 12:59:31 PM#153
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Zeppelin4
 

For my wife and I Wow was our favotire game for leveling. Its sad what they did to that game and I really have no idea why. Nerfs to mobs, phasing, speed leveling, account gear, sigh, you made me cry. :(

Phasing - i have no problem with .. have nothing to do with difficulty of the game.

speed leveling - i also have no problem with. I am leveling my alt in Diablo 3 on high monster power, and it is much faster than before. However, it is still fun as long as there is a challenge .. and it is there with high monster power.

account gear - it is not a problem if you can up the difficulty.

It boils down to this .... given reasonable gear (and i include account gear), fights are too easy. In fact, if you do dungeons (LFD) for leveling, you can just dps the boss without worrying ANY mechanics and he usually dies in seconds. Why? Because everyone is over-gear with account gear and blues.

The solution is simple .. just put a difficulty slider in the LFD like Diablo 3. If you scale the boss hp by 10x, its damage by 3x, and xp award/gold by say 50% ... it will be fun again. Now you have to calibrate the numbers right, but it can be done.

In part I agree with this. I say instead of sliders you have difficulty servers. My original post was not about the only the difficulty of the game but what was also fun.  I guess then it was a bit off topic but whats new on MMORPG.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

11/13/12 1:02:27 PM#154
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by nariusseldon

That means the only reasonable solution is to have difficulty sliders and give people choices. There is no one size fit all.

WoW may not be able to do that.

Note--even when they determined to scale instances ("EZ" "Hardmode"), they did it via hardcoding.  Fixed bosses, loot tables.

Wait for the mythical Titan project, I guess.

True. The original coding obviously put a strait jacket on what they can do with resonable resources. At the same time, if it is important, they can re-code enough to make it work.

In WOW case, i think just a straight scaling of hp & damage can probably solve a lot of the problems. Right now, in early dugeons, all mechanics are ignored ANYWAY.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

11/13/12 1:03:56 PM#155
Originally posted by Zeppelin4
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Zeppelin4
 

For my wife and I Wow was our favotire game for leveling. Its sad what they did to that game and I really have no idea why. Nerfs to mobs, phasing, speed leveling, account gear, sigh, you made me cry. :(

Phasing - i have no problem with .. have nothing to do with difficulty of the game.

speed leveling - i also have no problem with. I am leveling my alt in Diablo 3 on high monster power, and it is much faster than before. However, it is still fun as long as there is a challenge .. and it is there with high monster power.

account gear - it is not a problem if you can up the difficulty.

It boils down to this .... given reasonable gear (and i include account gear), fights are too easy. In fact, if you do dungeons (LFD) for leveling, you can just dps the boss without worrying ANY mechanics and he usually dies in seconds. Why? Because everyone is over-gear with account gear and blues.

The solution is simple .. just put a difficulty slider in the LFD like Diablo 3. If you scale the boss hp by 10x, its damage by 3x, and xp award/gold by say 50% ... it will be fun again. Now you have to calibrate the numbers right, but it can be done.

In part I agree with this. I say instead of sliders you have difficulty servers. My original post was not about the only the difficulty of the game but what was also fun.  I guess then it was a bit off topic but whats new on MMORPG.

Personally i like slider than servers because you are not locked in. Today i may feel adventurous, and want a bigger chance of that uber drop, so i go for a higher challenge. Tomorrow, i just want to kill 20 min doing a farming run, so i lower the difficulty.

Difficulty server won't be as flexible, although it will be better than nothing.

  Greymantle4

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 740

11/13/12 1:07:09 PM#156
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Zeppelin4
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Zeppelin4
 

For my wife and I Wow was our favotire game for leveling. Its sad what they did to that game and I really have no idea why. Nerfs to mobs, phasing, speed leveling, account gear, sigh, you made me cry. :(

Phasing - i have no problem with .. have nothing to do with difficulty of the game.

speed leveling - i also have no problem with. I am leveling my alt in Diablo 3 on high monster power, and it is much faster than before. However, it is still fun as long as there is a challenge .. and it is there with high monster power.

account gear - it is not a problem if you can up the difficulty.

It boils down to this .... given reasonable gear (and i include account gear), fights are too easy. In fact, if you do dungeons (LFD) for leveling, you can just dps the boss without worrying ANY mechanics and he usually dies in seconds. Why? Because everyone is over-gear with account gear and blues.

The solution is simple .. just put a difficulty slider in the LFD like Diablo 3. If you scale the boss hp by 10x, its damage by 3x, and xp award/gold by say 50% ... it will be fun again. Now you have to calibrate the numbers right, but it can be done.

In part I agree with this. I say instead of sliders you have difficulty servers. My original post was not about the only the difficulty of the game but what was also fun.  I guess then it was a bit off topic but whats new on MMORPG.

Personally i like slider than servers because you are not locked in. Today i may feel adventurous, and want a bigger chance of that uber drop, so i go for a higher challenge. Tomorrow, i just want to kill 20 min doing a farming run, so i lower the difficulty.

Difficulty server won't be as flexible, although it will be better than nothing.

The problem with sliders how do you handle if someone comes along and is on the lowest slider and attacks your mob and kills it in two swings? I feel a server setting would keep the game more social and a slider is a bit more solo not that most mmo are not solo focused anymore. 

  ThomasN7

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6654

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

11/13/12 1:11:13 PM#157
Well for me I think that is only part of the problem. I get older, I am much smarter than I was when I was a kid and I expect to do more challenging things to hold my interest.  The other part for me is that the mmo genre lacks diversity. Today everyone makes  theme park games. Well after awhile I get sick of theme park games because I been playing them since 2004. I want to try and do something different that is fun. Everyone copies one another and that is a problem for me as a player.  By next year if the genre doesn't present me with something different and fun then I'm out.
  DavisFlight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2571

11/13/12 1:14:21 PM#158
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by Thorbrand
Originally posted by Xiaoki

MMOs were never hard.


Yes, people are looking at the "good old days" with nostalgia.


Needless time sinks and badly programmed combat systems do not equate to difficulty.

I would disagree. Today's MMOs only have maybe 10% of the content and features of old MMOs. They only focus on combat and graphics. Not to meantion it is all instanced. All MMOs are grinds and today's MMOs are more mindless grinding than old school MMOs. Because they don't have any content. MMOs are suppose to be like playing PnP RPGs not single player action adventures that are not MMOs.

 

Can you give a time scale of todays mmos are you talking GW2 or Rift or AOC or further back.

2004 to now.

 

Basically, since, and including WoW.

Hell, WoW doesn't even have housing.

  DavisFlight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2571

11/13/12 1:16:38 PM#159
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by Zeppelin4
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Enigmatus

I wouldn't say that it's because MMOs are too easy; rather they just don't seem to know how to pace the difficulty.

Seriously, everything before the end is a flat plane, and then the end pops up and it eithers ends up being a giant wall of hurt, or a valley or incredible boredom.

And by the time the so called "end game" is reached it's too little too late.

So much effort is put into creating content and maps for levels 1-59.  Yet only a few dungeons in one area at level 60 are difficult.  I usually end up quitting long before reaching that point.

Combine that with the fact that there is very little originality anymore and I find cannot find any reason to play anymore.

Easy leveling *is* a problem. MMOs should have difficulty sliders like ARPGs. Let people level faster if they want to fight harder mobs.

 

Vanguard has this you can also stop xp dead if you want. Seems to me alot of the things people are complaining that mmo no longer do or have, Vanguard still has those things from pre WOW days.

The problem with Vanguard for me is the population. The free to play / store don't help ethier. 

 

This population thing is an old excuse that has warn itself out now. Since the F2P system Vanguards population has risen ten fold. Telon server is really an international server and has many people across all levels playing the game. Plus we are talking about features and certain game elements that people claim to miss but Vanguard has them. Seems to me that these people claimg they miss certain features but play these new mmo like GW2 have only themselves to blame.

Yeah Vanguard is more or less the only decent AAA MMO to release in the last 8 years. I play it, but my issue with it is SoE took out several of the more interesting features and made it more like WoW. That, and there's no PvP. Still has the best FTP system I've ever seen though.

 

What system to make it more like WOW, i've played since beta.

Adding teleporters, getting rid of corpse runs, adding floating markers over NPC heads, making quest objectives sparkle, removing EE, adding bind on pickup.

  DavisFlight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2571

11/13/12 1:20:00 PM#160
Originally posted by Fusion

"Back in the day" MMORPG's were a niche, for a niche customer base.

With WoW, the customer base grew substantially with casuals, overwhelming the "niche" population, thusly every MMORPG ever since has been catered more towards the bigger audience (the casuals) as they bring in more money than the real 'diehards of old'.

It's just business in the end, and where the most money is made from, that's whom the companies cater for.

Thats the idea, but it hasn't actually worked, has it? We have 8 years of failed mass market casual MMOs. Most of them (almost all of them) have less subscribers than "niche" MMOs did back in dial up days for christs sake.

WoW is an outlier. No MMO is going to have that many subs. Themepark is just as niche as anythiing else. DAoC had 250k subs at its peak and held that number for years.

AoC held its subs for such a short period that two of its publishers went bankrupt, and most of the people involved were fired.

The money is not in casual games. If anything, Eve and Darkfall prove that the good long term money is in catering to niche groups.

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