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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is the problem really that MMORPGs aren't hard anymore?

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231 posts found
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/13/12 8:03:00 AM#41
Originally posted by ozmono

I wonder if people look at MMOs at a time when they enjoyed them better and start attributing the inevitable decline of interest with them on things like difficulty. Or in other words are people just wearing nostalgia glasses or is game difficulty really so much worse nowdays and as detrimental to current MMOs as some would have you believe?

Yes and no.

Some of it is undeniably factual, WoW did ease the restrictions on leveling content pretty dramatically over the years.  Blizzard was, after all, looking for the biggest $$$ audience they could grab; shallow learning curve, lack of dramatic consequences for failing, ez cap, eventually ez raiding-entry bars.

It's there.  It's also exaggerated; gamers come pre-equipped with Team Hubris t-shirts, and have always been a home for the braggarts and poseurs.  Some of them, without a fairly constant source of ego-boo, 733t trophies, just don't feel manly enough, I guess.

It's also a all-time favorite topic of Doom Prophets :P

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Prenho

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/29/12
Posts: 306

11/13/12 8:06:32 AM#42

The WOW mentality: create your character -> get capped in 3 days through a solo campaign-linear quests -> sit the ass in the town until your time to enter an instance arrives -> have fun in multiplayer room -> sit the ass in town again til the next time.

 

Have ruined MMOs in west forever, there is no hope for western players anymore.

  gordiflu

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/22/07
Posts: 764

11/13/12 8:07:04 AM#43
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Roxtarr
For many supposedly 'hardcore vets' hard = an insane amount of time.  Also, by 'hard' they actually meant confusing (easy, but not obvious).  The only thing that was 'hard' about some of the classic mmo's was coping with having no friends, job or life outside of the game.

Well put.

I disagree.

Zerging was not an option. Now it's often THE option.

Pug friendly raids? Have you seen that in any old game?

New boss downed the same day it is released. Have you seen that in any old game?

Player at level cap who needs an explanation on how agro works. Have you ever seen that in an old game?

Becouse I have seen that stuff in newer games.

It's ok that you need less time to achieve progress in nowaday's MMOs. Not something I like, but I understand why many players prefer that. But, regardless the amount of time needed, games used to be harder, and I am talking plain difficutly. I am not talking death penalties, time invested, group size or anything like that. I am not even talking about depth. I am talking about how difficult the encounters were. They were harder before.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3259

11/13/12 8:24:57 AM#44
Originally posted by xDayx

Mmo's of old had more "depth" in my opinion, thus what seemed like being 'harder' wasn't harder. It just required more knowledge in the depth of the game than what today's mmo's do.

let me give you an example...

Lets say I'm a level 50 Bard in EQ1 and I wanted to go into the openworld dungeon Howling Stones. Aside from knowing your class and the fact that you needed certain instruments already (that weren't given to you from doing a quest that got put in front of you), and you know that your brass instrument skill is maxed(because you stayed logged all day in Firiona Vie playing your clarinet just to get your skill up). You are at the entrance and you know from trial and error that you have to wait for the named to circle around so you can twist levitate and invisibility and run just at the right time through one of the 3 holes in the ground and float down to a non-lethal spot  so you can start picking off the mobs one at a time just to get to the outer chambers. 

Today's mmo developers would never create something that detailed again because they assume people don't want to focus on all that and want to teleport people right into instances now. Heck bards don't even use instruments or percussion skill ratings any longer. Developers also think people dont like death penalties or corpse runs any longer.

Of course the people who started with WoW or after will disagree and the people who started with UO, EQ1, or AC will know what I'm talking about. So no they werent harder because of some difiiculty setting. The were harder because they assumed you needed a lot of depth of knowledge of many aspects,, your class, the area, the mob types, immunities, safe areas, zone lines, ex. Nowadays you are teleported in and if you have your spells on your hot bar or roll fast enuf your good to go. And even if you die today it's no big deal, a couple silver and your back to where you died.

Death stung back then. So you didn't die much. You communicated together. You had a plan before the pull, if it started to go south you had a plan B.  A group would stay or 'camp' a room if they felt comfortable there rather than pushing it further because further they almost lost it. You studied maps of dungeons and mobs and drops, and trap door locations(yes death pits) before you even went into a little 4-5 person dungeon because you had to. 

Harder= no 

More knowledge required= yes

     This caught my attention the most early in the thread..  I do believe as this poster has explained that old school MMO's were more about knowledge, then just button pushing..  As a spell caster you really had to know your spells and skill limits.. durations times, etc etc..  And I wanted to add to the above post one more critical area of old school vs current games.. With the exception of raids.. Old school you had to be more ALERT of yourself and your surroundings.. Lazy game play in the past will get you and your group killed quickly..

  Betaguy

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/31/04
Posts: 2614

Some folks are like Slinkies, totally useless but great fun to watch when pushed down stairs

11/13/12 8:27:13 AM#45
They have def. been scaled back since I started.  Yes they were much more tedious, not harder imo. They  have made them more user friendly lets say.

  Jackdog

Elite Member

Joined: 3/19/04
Posts: 6372

11/13/12 8:43:10 AM#46
during the golden age of EQ1 was that around 600- 800 K people were playing MMO's total. That was divided up between a half dozen games. I am sure that if all MMO's would suddenly become "hard" there would still have 400 - 600 K players but there simpley are not "millions" of people interested in that kind of time sink. I think the MMORPG genre has seen it's zenith and in another ten years it be back to a half dozen or so games with less than 1 milllion players playing.

I miss DAoC

  sanshi44

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/12/09
Posts: 1046

11/13/12 8:52:03 AM#47
Originally posted by parrotpholk
They are easier now for sure.  There are many things I hated about the old school.  Naked corpse runs being one of them.  But the difficulty and the possibility of failure is what made it exciting.  It made me more determined and logged in everyday.  Now you pretty much breeze through the journey and do some random tank and spank

Who does everyone say naked corpse runs in EQ1 did no one every keep a back up armor set like i did incase i died to help retrive my loot back.

  sanshi44

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/12/09
Posts: 1046

11/13/12 9:03:23 AM#48
Originally posted by gordiflu
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Roxtarr
For many supposedly 'hardcore vets' hard = an insane amount of time.  Also, by 'hard' they actually meant confusing (easy, but not obvious).  The only thing that was 'hard' about some of the classic mmo's was coping with having no friends, job or life outside of the game.

Well put.

I disagree.

Zerging was not an option. Now it's often THE option.

Pug friendly raids? Have you seen that in any old game?

New boss downed the same day it is released. Have you seen that in any old game?

Player at level cap who needs an explanation on how agro works. Have you ever seen that in an old game?

Becouse I have seen that stuff in newer games.

It's ok that you need less time to achieve progress in nowaday's MMOs. Not something I like, but I understand why many players prefer that. But, regardless the amount of time needed, games used to be harder, and I am talking plain difficutly. I am not talking death penalties, time invested, group size or anything like that. I am not even talking about depth. I am talking about how difficult the encounters were. They were harder before.

For example of game being harder a white mob (same lvl) in everquest was acualy quite and even or challenging fight most of the time while in new games such as rift or WoW you can austo attack it to death and loose 5% hp.

  sanshi44

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/12/09
Posts: 1046

11/13/12 9:08:36 AM#49
Originally posted by Quirhid

Very few have been "hard" but a lot of games have been labour intensive. Its not hard if it only requires time. Anyone can have time. If it requires skill, its hard, and not everyone has skill. Additionally, harsh death penalty does not increase difficulty - the skill bar. It is merely a punishment and doesn't add to the challenge imo.

The lamest game imaginable would be grindy with harsh death penalties.

Dont underestimate the power of harsh death penalty's. Harsh death penalties create immersion aswell as fear sometime it made the game feel much more exciting alot of the time, Playing games with harsher death penalty for long periods of time was much easier than games that didnt have a harsh penalty atleast for me. I could play EQ for 5+ hours stright easy, same thing with Darkfall and not get bored at all, In WoW i would be bored before we made it to the first boss even if it was a raid we never been to, and in GW2 its also the same thing i polay WvW for awhile and get bored after an hour or so (unless i was playing with guildies) soly because there was no immersion it just didnt feel real and i think that come down to death penalties. Ive always felt a great deal more immersed in games that had a harsh death penalty.

  Zekiah

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 2538

Hype (noun)
1. to trick; gull.
2. exaggerated publicity; hoopla.
3. swindle, deception, or trick.

11/13/12 9:08:46 AM#50
That's a good part of the problem but don't tell the NAO generation that.

"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  User Deleted
11/13/12 9:19:27 AM#51
Again, games weren't 'hard' per se, but they were different. MMO vets are like MTV viewers from 20 years ago - you know, the people who watched it for music.  News flash - you're not the target demographic anymore!  You're getting older, wondering why nobody is targeting you and your needs anymore.  A new generation of MMO gamer has come to the forfront, they are avid consumers and will spend a crap ton of money on whatever's put out.  While most of the 'gamers' you used to play with now are married, have jobs and families -you are still here thinking that it's the bad games that drove your friends away - when, nope - Real life did.  Developers have to make games that will get attention, appeal to more people and are profitable - and that 'hardcore, classic' jive is nothing more than a grab at a past that is long gone - like MTV that played music.
  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18985

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

11/13/12 9:26:30 AM#52
Originally posted by Roxtarr
For many supposedly 'hardcore vets' hard = an insane amount of time.  Also, by 'hard' they actually meant confusing (easy, but not obvious).  The only thing that was 'hard' about some of the classic mmo's was coping with having no friends, job or life outside of the game.

Well, it's true, early MMO's were designed for players with an abundance of the character traits (dare I call them skills?) of patience, perseverence and persistence, which of course, not really that many players are wired for.

I actually think modern MMO's deliver exactly the quick in and out experience that the majority of the player base favors, it's only the players who wished for a longer term experience in their  MMORPGs that really are getting shortchanged.

What you call a timesink, I call gameplay mechanics and we just differ on what they should be and what makes a game "fun" ( a truly over used and misunderstood term if there ever was one)

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
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  User Deleted
11/13/12 9:28:57 AM#53
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Roxtarr
For many supposedly 'hardcore vets' hard = an insane amount of time.  Also, by 'hard' they actually meant confusing (easy, but not obvious).  The only thing that was 'hard' about some of the classic mmo's was coping with having no friends, job or life outside of the game.

Well, it's true, early MMO's were designed for players with an abundance of the character traits (dare I call them skills?) of patience, perseverence and persistence, which of course, not really that many players are wired for.

I actually think modern MMO's deliver exactly the quick in and out experience that the majority of the player base favors, it's only the players who wished for a longer term experience in their  MMORPGs that really are getting shortchanged.

What you call a timesink, I call gameplay mechanics and we just differ on what they should be and what makes a game "fun" ( a truly over used and misunderstood term if there ever was one)

 

True, so I do stand partially corrected in that regard.

The reason I play MMO's is because of the long-term reward of knowing that I've invested in a character and have something to show for it that I am proud of.   Time is required, no doubt.  I think you are right that patience and endurance are qualities that should be rewarded and can add difficulty to the mix.  Sadly, these are not proving to be profitable skills to reward if you talk to most of today's developers.  I'm not saying I like it, I'm simply making an observation.

  IfrianMMO

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/21/12
Posts: 212

11/13/12 9:29:03 AM#54

The problem is most modern mmo players actually HATE what mmorpgs used to stand for.

I will not defend wether it was worse or better but the point is those games were our type of games and now they have been shifted into something else for a whole different kind of customer, as opposed to making diff games for both groups.

 

  BigCountry

Novice Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 480

11/13/12 9:29:55 AM#55

Wizardry Online my friend. Not the best looking mmo coming out, but definitely one of the "hardest". If your old school be sure to check it out. :D

BigCountry | Head Hunters | www.wefarmpeople.com

  Kilrain

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/25/03
Posts: 474

11/13/12 9:33:05 AM#56

The more challenging something is, the more people will try.  Goals feel like victories instead of a checklist thats readily getting marked off. I remember playin the EQ way back in the day, whenever someone would level up they would shout "DING" and everyone in the zone would send them a congrats, because it was a big deal. Developers after that created new "ding" affects with lights and sound, then with leveling made easier it happens constantly.

The leveling example I put is just a small part of it. and developers still took that away. Another part is what WoW did with end game. Why not make the entire game with dungeons, places to explore, and "epic" mobs to defeat rather than waiting until after you've maxed your character so people don't feel that it's a must to be maxed out. Anyone remember LFG to kill crush? heck, that was waaay in the beginning and you didn't see people just leveling up and soloing that part did you? So much fun back then, too bad. 

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  Yamota

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6506

"I fight so you don't have to."

11/13/12 9:34:09 AM#57
Originally posted by BigCountry

Wizardry Online my friend. Not the best looking mmo coming out, but definitely one of the "hardest". If your old school be sure to check it out. :D

Perma-death is not hard, it is stupid in an Internet game where you can have disconnections and lag not to mention just crashes. I would prefer the middle ground where dying stings but dont wipe your character.

  corpusc

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1367

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

11/13/12 9:34:50 AM#58

no.  the problem is that they aren't MMOs anymore.

 

and a whole generation of gamers has come in and taken over the scene who never played a real MMO and have no idea what one is.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  corpusc

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1367

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

11/13/12 9:35:58 AM#59
Originally posted by IfrianMMO

The problem is most modern mmo players actually HATE what mmorpgs used to stand for.

I will not defend wether it was worse or better but the point is those games were our type of games and now they have been shifted into something else for a whole different kind of customer, as opposed to making diff games for both groups.

 

 

yah

The End
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i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  Kilrain

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/25/03
Posts: 474

11/13/12 9:36:36 AM#60
Originally posted by BigCountry

Wizardry Online my friend. Not the best looking mmo coming out, but definitely one of the "hardest". If your old school be sure to check it out. :D

the controls in this game are what keep me from coming back, they just havent put any thought into that at all.

professional web programming and design.

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