Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Quizzical
It's easy to tack on half-baked PVP to a mostly PVE game, but the other way around is impractical.

I'm glad you used the words you did. After five years of people complaining that PVP was "tacked on" and an "afterthought" it's insane to not only see someone suggesting that in most MMOs PVP is way more developed than PVE, but that so many accepted that as fact and continued to the discussion based on that premise.

But sometimes it is tacked on (games with optional PvP server) or an afterthougth (LotRO, DDO). Not all games though. Many PvE games have had a focus in PvP; however, It is another thing if they've managed to make it any good.

Originally posted by Biskop
Please list some of these countless games that forego pve entirely and is 100% pvp.

That's right, there are none. All MMOs have some kind of pve, and most of them are heavily focused on pve, pvp being tacked on as a half-assed afterthought so that the devs can include it in the feature list. It's almost always separated from the world, instanced away in BGs or arenas or consequence-free pvp zones.

In short: the op is either trolling or utterly clueless. 99% of the current market is catering to you, so stop crying and go play one of all the countless pve games.

There are so many MMOs with such mediocre PVE.  WoW, TSW, FFXIV, etc, all amount to running around spamming buttons to kill helpless creatures. These same games are almost always judged according to their PVP or lack of PVP conent, as if PVP was synonymous with MMO. The developers of these games are always talking about what they will do for PVP to make fans happy. None of them talk about how their PVE sucks and no one talks about what makes good PVE.

Originally posted by Magiknight

There are so many MMOs with such mediocre PVE.  WoW, TSW, FFXIV, etc, all amount to running around spamming buttons to kill helpless creatures. These same games are almost always judged according to their PVP or lack of PVP conent, as if PVP was synonymous with MMO. The developers of these games are always talking about what they will do for PVP to make fans happy. None of them talk about how their PVE sucks and no one talks about what makes good PVE.

So what makes good PVE is the question.

Originally posted by samvenice

Originally posted by Margulis

I find it interesting that while PvP players are suposedly in the minority in general, that there are WAY more mmo's that come out focused entirely on PvP then there are mmo's who put their entire focus on PvE. 

 

Is this a joke? I haven't had my morning coffee yet, but it's either a joke or I live in an alternate version of your universe (or I'm playing everything wrong, obviously).

Please make a list with 2 columns: on the right mmo with entire focus on pve, on the left mmo entire focus on pvp.

Let's see who's got it bigger: My left side column has 3 titles (daoc, eve, planetside) - what about yours? LOL.

Also WAR, Darkfall. None of those games except Darkfall are really "pvp only" games.

TBF, most games nowadays are pve focused w/some pvp e.g. TOR, RIFT in the western sense and TERA and AIon in the Korean one.

Games being released without PVP are relatively rare, but happen e.g. TSW (which patched it in) and Vanguard (which AFAIK just doesn't have any).

The PVP only games are typically MOBAs (LOL, SMITE, Warhammer:MOBA and its ilk). I'm mildly hesitant to call them MMOs but there really are a ton of them lately after LOL's success.

Originally posted by bigron

Originally posted by samvenice

Originally posted by Margulis

I find it interesting that while PvP players are suposedly in the minority in general, that there are WAY more mmo's that come out focused entirely on PvP then there are mmo's who put their entire focus on PvE. 

 

Is this a joke? I haven't had my morning coffee yet, but it's either a joke or I live in an alternate version of your universe (or I'm playing everything wrong, obviously).

Please make a list with 2 columns: on the right mmo with entire focus on pve, on the left mmo entire focus on pvp.

Let's see who's got it bigger: My left side column has 3 titles (daoc, eve, planetside) - what about yours? LOL.

Also WAR, Darkfall. None of those games except Darkfall are really "pvp only" games.

TBF, most games nowadays are pve focused w/some pvp e.g. TOR, RIFT in the western sense and TERA and AIon in the Korean one.

Games being released without PVP are relatively rare, but happen e.g. TSW (which patched it in) and Vanguard (which AFAIK just doesn't have any).

The PVP only games are typically MOBAs (LOL, SMITE, Warhammer:MOBA and its ilk). I'm mildly hesitant to call them MMOs but there really are a ton of them lately after LOL's success.

I'm still trying to figure out why LOL is on an MMO website

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Quizzical
It's easy to tack on half-baked PVP to a mostly PVE game, but the other way around is impractical.

I'm glad you used the words you did. After five years of people complaining that PVP was "tacked on" and an "afterthought" it's insane to not only see someone suggesting that in most MMOs PVP is way more developed than PVE, but that so many accepted that as fact and continued to the discussion based on that premise.

But sometimes it is tacked on (games with optional PvP server) or an afterthougth (LotRO, DDO). Not all games though. Many PvE games have had a focus in PvP; however, It is another thing if they've managed to make it any good.

My point wasn't that PVP is good or bad.  My point was that if you start by making a game where the entire focus is PVE, it's pretty easy to tack on PVP as an afterthought.  You re-use the game engine, artwork, skills and so forth from PVE, and there isn't that much that you have to create new.  That's not likely to give you PVP that is actually any good, but it's easy to make a check-box feature out of it that your marketing department can list on the box.  That's why most MMORPGs have PVP of some sort.

The other way around is not true.  If you have PVP done and want to add PVE, then you have to create a world in which the PVE can take place.  You have to create a bunch of monsters, which certainly means a bunch of new artwork, and likely a bunch of new skills, too.  You have to create AI for the monsters.  You have to play-balance them, and balance the loot that they drop.  There's a fair bit of other stuff, too, but if you have a great PVP game done and want to add PVE, it takes a ton of work to even put mediocre PVE content into the game.  That's why a PVP-focused game likely won't--and shouldn't--add any PVE content.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Quizzical
It's easy to tack on half-baked PVP to a mostly PVE game, but the other way around is impractical.

I'm glad you used the words you did. After five years of people complaining that PVP was "tacked on" and an "afterthought" it's insane to not only see someone suggesting that in most MMOs PVP is way more developed than PVE, but that so many accepted that as fact and continued to the discussion based on that premise.

But sometimes it is tacked on (games with optional PvP server) or an afterthougth (LotRO, DDO). Not all games though. Many PvE games have had a focus in PvP; however, It is another thing if they've managed to make it any good.

Oh, I completely agree it's often tacked on, and it's been like that in many MMOs over the years, which is why I found the OP's point - and that so many just blindly followed it - pretty off the wall.

The best things about MMOs are the social aspect, specifically playing with and against real players. Infact the only real advantage MMOs have over single player games in terms of quality gameplay mechanics is this social aspect. They have more content but in terms of actual gameplay mechanics their only real improvement over singleplayer games is the social aspect. Playing a game versus AI just isn't as fun as playing a game versus a real person and that is for many reasons.

I don't think developers are stupid and I think they try and emphasize the strengths of their games. Even in a pvp game with no safe zones which is a rarity there is almost always pve content so it's not like it's left out completely but it is an afterthought, just like pvp servers have been on games that have been focussed on pve. The difference is games that focus on pvp only are far smaller and far less supported than games that have lots of PVE content and as such they normally only have one server.

So these pvp games are smaller in size and less funded games which normally provide safe zones and pve content aswell. It seems to me, if anyone is neglected, the PVP players should be complaining that they don't get the attention they want and they often do.

why not? 

how hard is it to make a battle ground or a zone for pvp?

If you invest 50 million to make a pve game.  just put in 5m more to add pvp content and you are golden, get some money from pvp crowd too.