Originally posted by Karteli

Leveling and getting bored, then starting up an alt and getting bored...

Roleplaying?

Imbalanced Low Level PVP (Heirlooms are the enemy of balance at anything lower than 30)

Dorking about in Goldshire?

oh snap, what if players actually could compare themselves with other players?  What if GW2 had interaction?

There is plenty of stuff to do in other games, largely because of interactivity.  Hell even fishing in WoW was made fun.

You downplay roleplaying, but that is part of interactivity.  GW2 sucks terribly when it comes to emotes.  They have the least I've seen in a so-called "AAA" MMORPG. shameful.  Do fans actually take pride in how GW2 is antisocial to everyone but themselves?  You may not like roleplaying, but many others do.

How the hell did you manage to get that from me just making a list? Sheesh, can't even put up a list of whatever I could think of without someone twisting it out of proportion...

Originally posted by Xiaoki

 

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Originally posted by DMKano

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Originally posted by bcbully

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Originally posted by ShakyMo Go play a bloody raid grinder like wow or rift then. Why does every game need to get tainted with raids? It's almost as stupid as the people asking for pve servers with darkfall.

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What is it, 20% of players raid? I wonder what those other 8 million are doing in WoW, the "raid grinder"....

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There was a recent interview with Blizzard devs that said that less than 3% of playerbase even gets to see any current raid content - less than 1% gets to complete a single raid boss.

 

So yeah 99% of WoW players do not raid on a regular basis - probably up to 20% try older raid content still the vast majority of WoW playerbase doesn't raid period.

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Please link the interview.

 

Blizzard never said that.

You are correct - it was a twitch tv broadcast with Trion devs showing the new raidng areas in the new Rift expansion - so never mind, it wasn't blizzard I was mistaken.

However around the TBC time period when 40 man raids still existed in WoW I remember reading that less than 1% of playerbase ever got to see any of that content - do your own research but I think it's pretty accurate.

Originally posted by DMKano

Originally posted by Xiaoki

 

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Originally posted by DMKano

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Originally posted by bcbully

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Originally posted by ShakyMo Go play a bloody raid grinder like wow or rift then. Why does every game need to get tainted with raids? It's almost as stupid as the people asking for pve servers with darkfall.

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What is it, 20% of players raid? I wonder what those other 8 million are doing in WoW, the "raid grinder"....

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There was a recent interview with Blizzard devs that said that less than 3% of playerbase even gets to see any current raid content - less than 1% gets to complete a single raid boss.

 

So yeah 99% of WoW players do not raid on a regular basis - probably up to 20% try older raid content still the vast majority of WoW playerbase doesn't raid period.

---

Please link the interview.

 

Blizzard never said that.

You are correct - it was a twitch tv broadcast with Trion devs showing the new raidng areas in the new Rift expansion - so never mind, it wasn't blizzard I was mistaken.

However around the TBC time period when 40 man raids still existed in WoW I remember reading that less than 1% of playerbase ever got to see any of that content - do your own research but I think it's pretty accurate.

That was 1% who completed Sunwell during TBC, not who raided. 

The point was to show that calling WoW a "raid grinder" is like campaign rhetoric. Not really much truth in it.

Depends on how endgame raiding is designed.

If it's like WoW with gearscore requirements, then I'd feel betrayed (like Korrigan said). I wouldn't stop playing though, unless it's all that's left for me to do.

If it's simply increasing dungeon party sizes, or better yet, more dynamic dungeon content that scales up or down with number of raid members (with a ceiling value of course), I'd be fine with that.

I do not want to go back to rat race for gear.

The rat race for no-lifers is a horrible gameplay addiction mechanic and I'm glad it's gone.

A raid dungeon tuned for and requiring 10-20 people of level 80 and already in full exotic gear (which is not that hard to get), with complex encounters and cosmetic rewards at the end, yes, I would absolutely love that.

There is a fundamental issue here.

ANet put legendary weapons into the game which can only be gained by a massive grind.

Everyone is defending the status quo with the 'no gear grind' formula of not having raids.

This is a central contradiction.

I would argue FOR larger dungeons groups with a Guild-centric flavour and with legendary armour as the ultimate prize from them. This would be VASTLY preferable to armour which has to be grinded the same way as the weapons ironically for the very reasons people defend the GW2 formula.

I sincerely hope the 16-18th brings us a dungeon with a higher involvement cap (I would hope a 10 person group) and legendary armours AND weapons at the end of the most difficult elements of it.

I don't want to grind for legendaries to the ridiculous extent currently necessary and I want something to help my guild get out of the torpor caused by the guild-unfriendly set up of GUILD Wars 2.

There is nothing for a Guild to do which means anything significant. No Guild Housing/Halls; No recognisable WvW presence; No Instances for more than 5 people.... just practically invisible buffs which mean very little and are gained primarily just by logging on....

I understand both sides of the arguement, and have been largely pro myself in the past. But after seeing what the game has done to my guild - a pretty proactive and cohesive group normally, I think many people are not considering one critical element of any game. Many people want a sense of acheivement. They want it to a greater extent than is currently provided in GW2.

There is no reason why raid-style content needs to have the negative aspects of raiding. Having a more guild-centric style of dungeon instance which requires a larger group does not go hand in hand with having to grind said instance after it becomes boring just for drops. ANet could easily have a similar reward set-up for a larger group instance as they do for dungeons.

So to summarise;

1. Identity in WvW - with something for Guilds to work towards

2. Raids without the abominable gear-drop grind

3. Legendary weapons and armour from challenging content - not an exasperating time/money-sink

Please don't go telling me 'I don't get it' when it comes to the game either. If you want to criticise my opinion - stick to why you think a non-grindy larger group dungeons, more guild-identity-friendly PvP and legendary weapons and armour without the terrible time-sink is bad.

GW2 is very good - but it could be better - and putting the GUILD back into the game is essential in my opinion. And yes - I know it's not called Guild Wars because of guilds.... but in losing that aspect of meaning in the title I think they lost a critical element of what would make the game not just good, but great.

Originally posted by Caliburn101

There is a fundamental issue here.

ANet put legendary weapons into the game which can only be gained by a massive grind.

Everyone is defending the status quo with the 'no gear grind' formula of not havingr raids.

This is a central contradiction.

I would argue FOR larger dungeons groups with a Guild-centric flavour and with legendary armour as the ultimate prize from them.

This would be VASTLY preferable to armour which has to be grinded the same way as the weapons ironically for the very reasons people defend the GW2 formula.

I sincerely hope the 16-18th brings us a dungeon with a higher involvement cap (I would hope a 10 person group) and legendariy armours AND weapons at the end of the mos difficult elements of it.

I don't want to grind for legendaries to the ridiculous extent necessary and I want something to help my guild get out of the torpor caused by the guild-unfriendly set up of GUILD Wars 2.

There is nothing for a Guild to do which means anything significant. No Guild Housing/Halls; No recognisable WvW presence; No Instances for more than 5 people.... just invisible buffs which mean very little and are gained primarily just by logging on....

I understand both sides of the arguement, and have been pro myself in the past. But after seeing what the game has done to my guild - a pretty proactive and cohesive group normally, I think many people are not considering one important element of any game. Many people want a sense of acheivement. They want it to a greater extent than is currently provided in GW2.

There is no reason why raid-style content needs to have the negative aspects of raiding. Having a more guild-centric style of dungeon instance which requires a larger group does not go hand in hand with having to grind said instance after it becomes boring just for drops. ANet could easily have a similar reward set-up for a larger group instance as they do for dungeons.

So to summarise;

1. Identity in WvW - with something for Guilds to work towards

2. Raids without the abominable gear-drop grind

3. Legendary weapons and armour from challenging content - not an exasperating time/money-sink

Please don't go telling me 'I don't get it' when it comes to the game either. If you want to criticise my opinion - stick to why you think a non-grindy larger group dungeons, more guild-identity-friendly PvP and legendary weapons and armour without the terrible time-sink is bad.

GW2 is very good - but it could be better - and putting the GUILD back into the game is essential in my opinion. And yes - I know it's not called Guild Wars because of guilds.... but in losing that aspect of meaning in the title I think they lost a critical element of what would make the game not just good, but great.

I agree with cosmetic legendaries for completing raid dungeons. Maybe not after 1 run, but with maybe a token system, make it like 4 tokens on a weekly raid lockout, seems fine to me.

If by 'raids' you mean harder dungeons with more people, and perhaps more dynamic as well, then sure, absolutely. But, if it's meant to be a gear treadmill where we wash, rinse, and repeat every couple of months, then no, absolutely not. 

I think the only way I'd be okay with "gear grinding end-game" is if there were other ways to obtain EQUALLY powerful gear (that looks equally as cool). Crafting, long quest chains, dailies, dungeons tokens, etc.

Personally, I'd rather see things like Guild v Guild (v Guild?) PvP, Guild housing, player housing, more professions, etc etc etc. But hey, if raids are what the majority of the playerbase wants, and Anet decides to go that route, then so be it.

Your options are very limited, so I won't vote for any of them.

I'm not quite sure big raids are even possible in gw2 as it is now. There obviously are examples such as Three Dragons = world bosses. But those encounters are not hard by any stretch of imagination. Raid scenarios in WoW were always made around very limited number of people (tanks and healers mainly, sometimes DPS with a special role) with the rest being just DPS race. I'm not quite sure that's possible in gw2, without any aggro management and without precise roles of characters.

Anyway if they pull it off, sure I don't really care. I doubt I personaly would find a group big enough and I''m not sure if people would be villing to invest time to something that big for aesthetic changes alone. In my opinion, they are better to do more world bosses or huge dynamic events instead of raid dungeons. Makes more sense anyway.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Why else would you play wow if not to grind raids?

It's crafting is shite
It's pvp is shite

The whole purpose of wow Is to grind raids, if it isn't why do blizzard put such a massive amount of effort into raiding.

Campaign season is over man. Stop with the rhetoric. 

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Good answer bully. 8)

So what would be a reason for playing wow other than raiding?

You wouldn't play it craft, as crafting is useless in wow, just a gold sink.

You wouldn't play it to pvp, as you can get wow style pvp for free in moba games, or you can get better pvp actually designed for a mmo not a lobby game in games like gw2 and eve

Actually crafting in WoW is a money maker. It always has been, even more so in MoP. Farming mats is a money maker too. Ask a alchemist if crafting is a gold sink. 

Arena PvP is the only mmorpg Esport on the market. 

As far as what to do besides raid and arena? Idk ask the other 7-8 million people who play WoW that don't do either.  There are a lot of meta games and rep grinds, and fluff in WoW.  This is what WoW has on the competition. Many flavors of content for all types of players, not just for casuals.

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Good answer bully. 8)

So what would be a reason for playing wow other than raiding?

You wouldn't play it craft, as crafting is useless in wow, just a gold sink.

You wouldn't play it to pvp, as you can get wow style pvp for free in moba games, or you can get better pvp actually designed for a mmo not a lobby game in games like gw2 and eve

Actually crafting in WoW is a money maker. It always has been, even more so in MoP. Farming mats is a money maker too. Ask a alchemist if crafting is a gold sink. 

 

Arena PvP is the only mmorpg Esport on the market. 

 

As far as what to do besides raid and arena? Idk ask the other 7-8 million people who play WoW that don't do either.  There are a lot of meta games and rep grinds, and fluff in WoW.  This is what WoW has on the competition. Many flavors of content for all types of players, not just for casuals.

THe point is, right now the only people playing WoW are the hardcore players, not the casual players. There NEEDS to be a game for the casual players. THere are plenty of hardcore games out there - Rift, WoW, TERA, TSW, EVE, etc. What is out there for the casual player? Name one other than GW2. People on this site,  act as if casual gaming is a bane on the exsistance of humanity and it is not.

I dont have the time to spend 8 hours a day gaming and if I did, I STILL wouldn't do it. I did it in the past but I am over that. There is more to RL than games to escape from RL..

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Betrayed.

But since it won't happen, there's nothing to worry about.

But it did happen. 

I always say 'never say never'.