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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » Main reason why SWTOR flopped?

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201 posts found
  superniceguy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2251

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

11/11/12 11:12:37 AM#141
Originally posted by Burntvet
 they did not refresh the server tech very much after the population tanked.

 

 

 

The lag post NGE was down to the code, even if it had the best server tech it would still have lagged. The only way they could have fixed it was to rewrite the game from the ground up.

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3144

11/11/12 12:08:30 PM#142

Also keep in mind..

     In SWTOR you have a Smuggler that doesn't smuggle... You have a Bounty Hunter that doesn't hunt..  And the game is riddled with illogical and contradition..... Prime Example:  Who has played the Sith Inq?  I have and at the end of your storyline we are suppose to be on the dark council.. RIGHT?   But soon as you leave that cut scene after beating the big guy.. You are right back to being a PEON doing dailies....... Really?  Dark council does dailies? This just shows to me how 1/2 assed things were done..

  Lugors

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/06/12
Posts: 170

11/11/12 4:09:54 PM#143

The failure was one of game design and leadership at EA.


The game had great graphics with poor art design.


Delivered a story driven MMO, and forgot the "and then..."


Outsourced the game engine, and lacked the internal know how to get the most out of it.


Planned ambitious open world PvP without the hardware to handle the load nor a purpose behind actually doing it.


 

The game is actually less than the sum of it's parts.  The lead producer has the responsibilty to hold the production team to a vision and create a game in line with that vision.  The suits at EA saw WoW with lightsabers and thought "how could this go wrong, lets throw enough money at it, and it'll work." 

  Uronksur

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/09
Posts: 306

11/11/12 4:23:59 PM#144
Originally posted by Clawzon

The game had an excellent gamedeveloper in BioWare, it had economic power in EA and an outstanding IP in Star Wars!

But along the way something went wrong, very wrong! What?

 

 

 

 

I think they should have tried to get away from the WoW gameplay style i.e. the abilities and talents and so on. I'm not particularly fond of The Secret World's skill wheel thing, but even that would have been more interesting.

Then I think there was far too much linearity and railroading. The world should have been much more explorable and open. Crafting is pretty abysmal. They didnt make open world PvP or any real "war".

There wasnt enough meaning to dialogue choices. In Bioware's other games (Dragon Age and Mass Effect), your choices often have some sort of impact. Bioware should have designed it so your choices in missions would actually have some significant impact down the road. You know, if I randomly murder a high ranking noble on Alderaan, or slaughter a squad of police officers on a neutral planet, I should be surprised by assassins at some point or have to deal with some sort of judicial fallout. Something should happen to make us actually invested and interested in the world rather than just choosing dialogue options to get light or dark side points and maximize our active companion's affection gains.

 

That said, I don't think the game is totally awful, but it could be a lot better.

  Uronksur

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/09
Posts: 306

11/11/12 4:30:22 PM#145
Originally posted by Lugors


The game had great graphics with poor art design.

Oh, and the above as well. The graphics are reasonably good, but the art and layout is pretty mediocre at best. I don't think the stylized art style was a good choice. 

  Amphib_Ian

Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 171

Fools fear nothing yet claim to know everything. Bravery is knowing everything yet fearing nothing.

11/11/12 4:33:00 PM#146
Originally posted by LoverNoFighter
It wasn't SWG.

This ^^^

But also, I am greatful that I got the game for cheap when I traded in some other games at the time, then just waited without installing for the game to go, inevitably, free to play. At which time I will play this very well funded single player game till I hit cap or whatever and then, probably, never touch it again. I still have the reciept, it cost me $21.82 which I think is very fair for a single player star wars game. And maybe, just maybe, some of the bugs and crap will be cleared up so it is a smooth experience.

GOD I miss the old pre-CU swg days...

  Uronksur

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/09
Posts: 306

11/11/12 4:33:24 PM#147
Originally posted by Rydeson

Also keep in mind..

     In SWTOR you have a Smuggler that doesn't smuggle... You have a Bounty Hunter that doesn't hunt..  And the game is riddled with illogical and contradition..... Prime Example:  Who has played the Sith Inq?  I have and at the end of your storyline we are suppose to be on the dark council.. RIGHT?   But soon as you leave that cut scene after beating the big guy.. You are right back to being a PEON doing dailies....... Really?  Dark council does dailies? This just shows to me how 1/2 assed things were done..

Because losing access to game content like dailies after completing the class storyline would be absurd and everyone would hate it and complain about it nonstop? If you don't want to do dailies as a Darth, then don't. I imagine that there will be class content added on eventually in expansions or something like that. I mean, I'd hate to think that the devs are so stupid as to not keep developing story content.

  Amphib_Ian

Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 171

Fools fear nothing yet claim to know everything. Bravery is knowing everything yet fearing nothing.

11/11/12 4:35:58 PM#148
Originally posted by Rydeson

Also keep in mind..

     In SWTOR you have a Smuggler that doesn't smuggle... You have a Bounty Hunter that doesn't hunt..  And the game is riddled with illogical and contradition..... Prime Example:  Who has played the Sith Inq?  I have and at the end of your storyline we are suppose to be on the dark council.. RIGHT?   But soon as you leave that cut scene after beating the big guy.. You are right back to being a PEON doing dailies....... Really?  Dark council does dailies? This just shows to me how 1/2 assed things were done..

That was something else I heard: imbalanced pvp. I recall seeing a video of a bounty hunter just shooting some missle thing and owning everyone's face, and heard testimony from a pal that sith lightning was way superior to the jedi equivalent of throwing a rock or some such. Any truth to these claims?

  Whitebeards

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 750

11/11/12 4:35:59 PM#149

I chose other because IMO it was slow content updates that hurt SWTOR the most. Rift is perfect example that content is the king and people can look past the old and tried WOW clone model as long as company supports their game with a heart.

So not it wasn't linear gameplay, end game raiding or similarities to WOW that caused such a steep decline in population.

  Uronksur

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/09
Posts: 306

11/11/12 4:38:46 PM#150
Originally posted by Amphib_Ian
Originally posted by Rydeson

Also keep in mind..

     In SWTOR you have a Smuggler that doesn't smuggle... You have a Bounty Hunter that doesn't hunt..  And the game is riddled with illogical and contradition..... Prime Example:  Who has played the Sith Inq?  I have and at the end of your storyline we are suppose to be on the dark council.. RIGHT?   But soon as you leave that cut scene after beating the big guy.. You are right back to being a PEON doing dailies....... Really?  Dark council does dailies? This just shows to me how 1/2 assed things were done..

That was something else I heard: imbalanced pvp. I recall seeing a video of a bounty hunter just shooting some missle thing and owning everyone's face, and heard testimony from a pal that sith lightning was way superior to the jedi equivalent of throwing a rock or some such. Any truth to these claims?

Asides from appearances, probably not... As I recall, each class is basically just a carbon copy of it's opposite in the other faction. I would bet the numbers for Sith Lightning and Jedi Telekinesis are exactly the same and scale in total lockstep. 

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

11/11/12 4:43:51 PM#151

Did anyone mention EA?

 

You know, the game flopped because it was an EA game masquerading as a BioWare game?

 

You tend to expect certain quality from EA.

 

--EA bought Origin Systems, Inc, and the franchise suffered (Richard Garriott did do UO before he left).  Ultima 9 wasn't so lucky.

--EA bought Mythic and drags the franchise through the mud (Warhammer).

--EA buys BioWare in 2007..

You can see the outcome.

 

EA and MMORPGS's.  A candle in the wind ...

 

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  TeknoBug

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/07
Posts: 2166

11/11/12 7:21:24 PM#152


Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by superniceguy Yeah, all of them and then some, but MAIN reason would be End Game - not enough to keep you playing once maxed. SWG did not have space to begin with, but its open worlds / sandbox style, many customisable professions and crafting systems etc kept me busy until JTL came
For me, the main reason is that it didnt have a good engine for large scale anything.


Are you referring to SWG or SWTOR? I remember participating large fights and not experiencing any lag, look up "Lost battle of Lok" from Lowca circa August 2004, best pvp event I've ever been in. SWTOR could barely hold 25-30 people, Ilum proved that.


  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3144

11/11/12 10:54:06 PM#153
Originally posted by Uronksur
Originally posted by Rydeson

Also keep in mind..

     In SWTOR you have a Smuggler that doesn't smuggle... You have a Bounty Hunter that doesn't hunt..  And the game is riddled with illogical and contradition..... Prime Example:  Who has played the Sith Inq?  I have and at the end of your storyline we are suppose to be on the dark council.. RIGHT?   But soon as you leave that cut scene after beating the big guy.. You are right back to being a PEON doing dailies....... Really?  Dark council does dailies? This just shows to me how 1/2 assed things were done..

Because losing access to game content like dailies after completing the class storyline would be absurd and everyone would hate it and complain about it nonstop? If you don't want to do dailies as a Darth, then don't. I imagine that there will be class content added on eventually in expansions or something like that. I mean, I'd hate to think that the devs are so stupid as to not keep developing story content.

     I think you missed the point I was trying to make..  The game was design to play as a single player RPG, with an end game co-op grind of dailies and instances..  According to the storyline there are now hundreds of new Sith Inq on the dark council per server..  lol..The logic of the game isn't there in the least.. It was poorly written and poorly designed.. Hell, even the Sith Warrior storyline is somewhat illogical..  I don't think Darth Vader was doing any dailies, and neither was Han Solo..

/boggled

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3144

11/11/12 11:00:49 PM#154
Originally posted by TeknoBug

 


Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by superniceguy Yeah, all of them and then some, but MAIN reason would be End Game - not enough to keep you playing once maxed. SWG did not have space to begin with, but its open worlds / sandbox style, many customisable professions and crafting systems etc kept me busy until JTL came
For me, the main reason is that it didnt have a good engine for large scale anything.

Are you referring to SWG or SWTOR? I remember participating large fights and not experiencing any lag, look up "Lost battle of Lok" from Lowca circa August 2004, best pvp event I've ever been in. SWTOR could barely hold 25-30 people, Ilum proved that.

 

     Most of the MMO's of late that I've played suffer from population lag, even GW2..  Today's era is all about amazing graphics.. Problem is, as soon as your computer has to start rendering 30 amazing spell cast, LAG CITY..  I wish there was a way people can turn on/off spell casting effects.. Also keep in mind.. Back in the old days, when you used to have classes where you only casted ONE spel, every so often, it didn't stress the local graphics.. Today's spell casting is chain casting that just puts the graphic drawing on overtime..  This is also the prime reason why raids get cut in size..

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

11/11/12 11:08:36 PM#155
Originally posted by Astropuyo
Originally posted by Latronus

It failed because too many people wanted it to be something it was never going to be. 

SWG fans wanted SWG2

KOTOR fans wanted KOTOR3

Eve/X-Wing fans wanted free roam space

RPers wanted, well they wanted to sit down in a chair, to swim, day/night cycles, houses, etc etc etc

A very vocal minority wanted SGRAs

Raiders wanted well, they wanted end game

PvPers wanted, well does it really matter because are they ever truly happy? 

WoW players wanted group finder/macros/add-ons/8 years of content at release 

The list goes on and on.  The game was doomed before it ever launched because no matter what EA/Bioware did or did not do, there was no way to satisfy a majority of the players with the direction they finally took the game...

 

 

^-- This is exactly on the mark.

 

Meanwhile I cannot allow someone to say something failed that is still open, if people thought any sort of rough spot was failure in the real world you'd all be aborted. (Me as well) and really whom are we to say what is fail? Last time I checked the majority of this community is either..

 

A).Unemployed

or

B)Really really obsessed with bashing the big rocks into smaller more sharper barbs.

 

Or

C). Every mmo player is now an entitled ass not fit to game with as they flee anything for anything new.

He was wrong on one point. You can make a game that will fill those shoes, but you can't do it when your groupthink studio won't change the game to suit reality (the audience).

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

11/11/12 11:20:45 PM#156
Originally posted by eddieg50
Originally posted by ignore_me
Originally posted by eddieg50
Originally posted by just1opinion

 

There were too many things to choose just one.  Overall, the combination of those things caused me to burn out quickly and lose my will to log in.

 

I can't help but think that if SWTOR had been more like SWG (pre-NGE) and less like WoW it would have been more successful. Still....I enjoyed the game for the brief time I played it and don't regret buying it.  Live and learn, I say. :)

   You are one of many people who say this, but the fact is that SWG was a failure so Sony instituted changes which kept the game afloat for awhile but was still a failure

I guess this goes to show that 'Failure' is a relative term. 8 years of subscription; Fans who wish it was still running; Comes up anecdotally as a model when crafting, space combat, and many other systems are discussed.

At this point I am disgusted by the comparison. The two games share the same IP but that is it. SWTOR isn't worthy to be mentioned in comparison to SWG.

   They are actually different games, the problem is SWG fans thought they were getting SWG2, they refused to research the game , they did not play the beta, they did not understand that Bioware was making the game.  It is hard to compare them, SWG had a more open world, get a speeder right away (post nge i believe) and have fun driving around, good crafting and harvesting (if you really get into harvesting) and a good space game, TOR has better production, voice overs, cut scenes, combat, story progression, performance, graphics (it is newer after all), small grouping, flash points.   SWG always felt to ME like a chat room combined with a sandbox and a very realistic (to realistic, do i really want to spend my game time being a dancer?) SWG world,      Tor reminds me of a single player with mmo elements and Bioware elements, WOW like but with much better story etc, linier world.  Both have their good points and bad points.     By the way length of time does not necessarily mean success, look at Vanguard, UO, the realm, asherons call. It simply means it has rabid fans (although few in number) and the developer has the resources to keep said game going.

nor does cost of production, media hype, etc. The argument you seem to be making is not that SWTOR is success or failure, but instead you brought in the SWG strawman and said That is a failure. The person who you replied to brought up SWG, but you added the failure part.

If SWG had the same contemporary level of quality in graphics and was still around, SWTOR would not be around. SWTOR is a vapid empty box, an exercise in front-ending cutscenes and visuals over depth. You didn't have to be a dancer in SWG, but for those who wanted it, they could be a dancer. In SWTOR you could use the jukebox, and the population in the cantinas showed how well this encouraged socialization.

 

The man behind the curtain at Bioware has been seen, and he has produced a terrible game, whether it makes the stockholders happy or not. SWTOR was successful in disappointing customers, and in getting the industry to take a look at anemic game worlds to see if they can avoid making the same mistake.

 

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  Obraik

Ewok

Joined: 5/02/05
Posts: 7303

11/12/12 12:15:56 AM#157
Originally posted by eddieg50
Originally posted by Obraik
Originally posted by eddieg50
Originally posted by just1opinion

 

There were too many things to choose just one.  Overall, the combination of those things caused me to burn out quickly and lose my will to log in.

 

I can't help but think that if SWTOR had been more like SWG (pre-NGE) and less like WoW it would have been more successful. Still....I enjoyed the game for the brief time I played it and don't regret buying it.  Live and learn, I say. :)

   You are one of many people who say this, but the fact is that SWG was a failure so Sony instituted changes which kept the game afloat for awhile but was still a failure

Except, SWG didn't fail.  SWG had more success than SWTOR has had.

   That is a flawed aruguement because TOR has not been out very long. Look at Vanguard, UO, Asherons call, the realm.  games that have been going on for year after year with very few players.  The fact is that Sony saw the game as a failure because of its population and changed it to something they thought would increase it and that failed-so it was a double failure

At the same point in time of its life, SWG was more successful than TOR.  It wasn't shutting down servers and it hadn't suffered from a major population drop.  That didn't come until 2.5 years after its release

The changes happened because LucasArts (and SOE, no doubt) got greedy.  WoW was released and was an instant hit and redefined what a successful MMO was.  In their eyes, there was no way Star Wars shouldn't have those kind of numbers and thought something was wrong.  The first major changes weren't controversal but nothing too drastic, the fundamentals of the game remained mostly the same and the game gained new appeal.  However, nothing on the level of WoW and thus the NGE came along, which did bring some drastic changes to the game to make it more WoW like - enough changes that it could have been released as a seperate game.  This move backfired on them and they did lose a good number of subs - but the game continued to hold a healthy number of players over its years after this.

As you may have picked up, I put most of the blame on LucasArts for these changes, due to evidence from TOR.  TOR is the ultimate move by LucasArts to copy WoW and make a Star Wars game that would have subs "worthy of the IP".  However, once again, it's blown up in their face. 

  Obraik

Ewok

Joined: 5/02/05
Posts: 7303

11/12/12 12:18:54 AM#158
Originally posted by Draron
Originally posted by Obraik

No, SWG's subs topped out at around the 300-400k mark.  In pre-WoW time, this was very successful for an MMO - Everquest was really the only other Western MMO to have hit higher.  They hit 1 million boxes sold in August 2005

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/star-wars-galaxies-sales-top-a-million-units

The link you offered shows 1 million sold but 250k subs - a 25% retention rate, and that was just after an expansion. Much less than the "tortanic" which at there latest report had at least 33% which is what SWG was after the CU (though it crashed yet again after the NGE), and I'd bet an expansion for SWTOR would bump it up way further than 25% when that time comes. Even if SWTOR fell to 25% itself a few months from now, they both were pretty much following the same trend retention wise.

SWG isn't the success people on this board claims it was.

No, the article is saying it had 250k subs at the time of that article, when they sold their 1 millionth copy.  That doesn't mean it didn't peak at 300-400k earlier in its lifetime.

SWG didn't have a major population drop out until November 2005.  Until then, it held pretty steady with fairly reliable sub numbers.  It's when LucasArts got greedy that they lost those numbers.

  Souldrainer

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/06
Posts: 1878

11/12/12 1:23:29 AM#159
SWTOR flopped?  I guess I need to tell the 1000+ people on my server at 2am to quit playing then. 

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  Konner920

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/27/08
Posts: 296

11/12/12 1:27:15 AM#160
Too much running around for like ever to get to a destination. It's not fun walking around. The game was a complete bore, this is the only MMO that I can say was actually boring.
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