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EVE Online

EVE Online 

Jita (General)  » Want to come back - but always had this problem....

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29 posts found
  delimeat567

Novice Member

Joined: 7/12/10
Posts: 56

 
OP  11/08/12 3:09:52 AM#1

Maybe I should just precursor this by saying my first MMORPG was SWG. At the time, it was still mostly a sandbox with some themepark elements sneaking in, but by no means taking over the game. 

That being said, I have to just get something off my mind. I love the idea and the setting of EVE Online. I've read through the lore several times, and even thought about doing some fan fiction. But, everytime I return to EVE, I run into the same problem: I don't like how skills are leveled up in this game. 

When I subscribe to the game, it only ever lasts a few days before I realize that all I can do to advance myself that day is queue up some training, then go play another game. If I go out and massacre some pirates with my missiles, I don't get extra experience - and for some reason, that is the one thing that really bothers me about the game. I love sci-fi, and it's one of those cliche situations where I really want to like this game, but I just can't get over the fact that my skills are in no way based on my actions. I kill 1 pirate, I will get that missile skill in 8 hours. I kill 1,000,000 pirates, I will get that missile skill in 8 hours. 

So I guess my question to you guys is, or my request for advice, how do you get around that? Doesn't it bother you that you aren't goin to finish a skill up no matter how much you use it simply because the game dictates that you can't earn the skill, you have to have it implanted into you. Let's just be honest, you aren't going to see a change in the skill system when the game is as old as it is. But, how do I get around the fact that whether or not I play, I'm advancing? If I play for 5 hours one day, I advance in skill as much as I do if I hadn't played for 5 seconds. 

I can't be the only one who is weirded out by this system - although perhaps I am the only one on these boards for obvious reasons. What do you guys do to fill your time? Playing the market is fun, but haulting isn't any good until you save up enough money to do the decent jobs. Joining a corporation was difficult as a newbie; everyone though I was going to steal from them. 

Anyway, just thought I would make a post here. I've been thinking about returning again lately, but am on the border like always.  Let me know what you guys think, and your answers to the questions I asked! Thanks a bunch guys and gals!

Played: SWG, SWG:NGE, EQ2, Vanguard, LotRO, WoW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Mortal Online, Rift, Guild Wars, Fallen Earth, EVE Online, Ryzom, Dungeons and Dragons Online, World of Tanks, Aion, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars 2

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6829

11/08/12 3:21:11 AM#2


Originally posted by delimeat567
Maybe I should just precursor this by saying my first MMORPG was SWG. At the time, it was still mostly a sandbox with some themepark elements sneaking in, but by no means taking over the game. 

That being said, I have to just get something off my mind. I love the idea and the setting of EVE Online. I've read through the lore several times, and even thought about doing some fan fiction. But, everytime I return to EVE, I run into the same problem: I don't like how skills are leveled up in this game. 

When I subscribe to the game, it only ever lasts a few days before I realize that all I can do to advance myself that day is queue up some training, then go play another game. If I go out and massacre some pirates with my missiles, I don't get extra experience - and for some reason, that is the one thing that really bothers me about the game. I love sci-fi, and it's one of those cliche situations where I really want to like this game, but I just can't get over the fact that my skills are in no way based on my actions. I kill 1 pirate, I will get that missile skill in 8 hours. I kill 1,000,000 pirates, I will get that missile skill in 8 hours. 

So I guess my question to you guys is, or my request for advice, how do you get around that? Doesn't it bother you that you aren't goin to finish a skill up no matter how much you use it simply because the game dictates that you can't earn the skill, you have to have it implanted into you. Let's just be honest, you aren't going to see a change in the skill system when the game is as old as it is. But, how do I get around the fact that whether or not I play, I'm advancing? If I play for 5 hours one day, I advance in skill as much as I do if I hadn't played for 5 seconds. 

I can't be the only one who is weirded out by this system - although perhaps I am the only one on these boards for obvious reasons. What do you guys do to fill your time? Playing the market is fun, but haulting isn't any good until you save up enough money to do the decent jobs. Joining a corporation was difficult as a newbie; everyone though I was going to steal from them. 

Anyway, just thought I would make a post here. I've been thinking about returning again lately, but am on the border like always.  Let me know what you guys think, and your answers to the questions I asked! Thanks a bunch guys and gals!


While I never really played SWG, posts like this makes me very skeptical the game being a sandbox...


Back to your question.

You do not advance in EVE. Your skill points are only a resource, an asset, a tool to achieve your goals.

Treat it like that.


Take a look on what you got - your knowledge, your contacts, your finance, your assets, your skill points and think what you can do with them.


You can achieve amazing things even with minimal resources at hand.

  zimboy69

Novice Member

Joined: 3/09/08
Posts: 348

11/08/12 3:29:30 AM#3
Originally posted by delimeat567

When I subscribe to the game, it only ever lasts a few days before I realize that all I can do to advance myself that day is queue up some training, then go play another game. If I go out and massacre some pirates with my missiles, I don't get extra experience - and for some reason, that is the one thing that really bothers me about the game. I love sci-fi, and it's one of those cliche situations where I really want to like this game, but I just can't get over the fact that my skills are in no way based on my actions. I kill 1 pirate, I will get that missile skill in 8 hours. I kill 1,000,000 pirates, I will get that missile skill in 8 hours. 

 

 

you can earn more money at the keyboard than away from the keyboard and that extra money  can be used to buy better equipment  no matter  how small a upgrade even a 0.1%  is still a upgrade 

so two players starting at the same time with the same luck,and player skill   one plays  for  1 hour a day, one for 8 hours at the end of a week  the 8 hour a day player will have  more player skill ,better equipment and  a better ship and will 99% of the time kill  the 1 hour a day player  even though they have the same amount of skill points

 

 

  StarI

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 787

11/08/12 3:43:55 AM#4
Originally posted by delimeat567

Maybe I should just precursor this by saying my first MMORPG was SWG. At the time, it was still mostly a sandbox with some themepark elements sneaking in, but by no means taking over the game. 

That being said, I have to just get something off my mind. I love the idea and the setting of EVE Online. I've read through the lore several times, and even thought about doing some fan fiction. But, everytime I return to EVE, I run into the same problem: I don't like how skills are leveled up in this game. 

When I subscribe to the game, it only ever lasts a few days before I realize that all I can do to advance myself that day is queue up some training, then go play another game. If I go out and massacre some pirates with my missiles, I don't get extra experience - and for some reason, that is the one thing that really bothers me about the game. I love sci-fi, and it's one of those cliche situations where I really want to like this game, but I just can't get over the fact that my skills are in no way based on my actions. I kill 1 pirate, I will get that missile skill in 8 hours. I kill 1,000,000 pirates, I will get that missile skill in 8 hours. 

So I guess my question to you guys is, or my request for advice, how do you get around that? Doesn't it bother you that you aren't goin to finish a skill up no matter how much you use it simply because the game dictates that you can't earn the skill, you have to have it implanted into you. Let's just be honest, you aren't going to see a change in the skill system when the game is as old as it is. But, how do I get around the fact that whether or not I play, I'm advancing? If I play for 5 hours one day, I advance in skill as much as I do if I hadn't played for 5 seconds. 

I can't be the only one who is weirded out by this system - although perhaps I am the only one on these boards for obvious reasons. What do you guys do to fill your time? Playing the market is fun, but haulting isn't any good until you save up enough money to do the decent jobs. Joining a corporation was difficult as a newbie; everyone though I was going to steal from them. 

Anyway, just thought I would make a post here. I've been thinking about returning again lately, but am on the border like always.  Let me know what you guys think, and your answers to the questions I asked! Thanks a bunch guys and gals!

 

I know what you mean but to be fair and exact, there actually is advancing tied directly to killing that 1 pirate (or 1000000). When you kill it you raise standings with some factions and drop with others. By this you unlock higher level missions which in return let you get more money in shorter time. And money is pretty much what you are esentialy after because it fuels everything else, even your skills which can become quite an expense later on ,especially if you only play EvE afk waiting for skills to get up.

Again i know you'd like your skills be tied to actions but that's not going to happen so it's just about setting your mind and accepting the way it is.

  NightBandit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 754

Make friends not money, then wealth will follow.

11/08/12 3:53:08 AM#5
Originally posted by delimeat567

Maybe I should just precursor this by saying my first MMORPG was SWG. At the time, it was still mostly a sandbox with some themepark elements sneaking in, but by no means taking over the game. 

That being said, I have to just get something off my mind. I love the idea and the setting of EVE Online. I've read through the lore several times, and even thought about doing some fan fiction. But, everytime I return to EVE, I run into the same problem: I don't like how skills are leveled up in this game. 

When I subscribe to the game, it only ever lasts a few days before I realize that all I can do to advance myself that day is queue up some training, then go play another game. If I go out and massacre some pirates with my missiles, I don't get extra experience - and for some reason, that is the one thing that really bothers me about the game. I love sci-fi, and it's one of those cliche situations where I really want to like this game, but I just can't get over the fact that my skills are in no way based on my actions. I kill 1 pirate, I will get that missile skill in 8 hours. I kill 1,000,000 pirates, I will get that missile skill in 8 hours. 

So I guess my question to you guys is, or my request for advice, how do you get around that? Doesn't it bother you that you aren't goin to finish a skill up no matter how much you use it simply because the game dictates that you can't earn the skill, you have to have it implanted into you. Let's just be honest, you aren't going to see a change in the skill system when the game is as old as it is. But, how do I get around the fact that whether or not I play, I'm advancing? If I play for 5 hours one day, I advance in skill as much as I do if I hadn't played for 5 seconds. 

I can't be the only one who is weirded out by this system - although perhaps I am the only one on these boards for obvious reasons. What do you guys do to fill your time? Playing the market is fun, but haulting isn't any good until you save up enough money to do the decent jobs. Joining a corporation was difficult as a newbie; everyone though I was going to steal from them. 

Anyway, just thought I would make a post here. I've been thinking about returning again lately, but am on the border like always.  Let me know what you guys think, and your answers to the questions I asked! Thanks a bunch guys and gals!

 Well there is a new expansion in December and as for the skills being slow you can have an impact on that by using implants. All you need to do is find a decent corp and get involved in the PvP like the corp I'm in teach new player how to play the game in 0.0 and start off with small figates so you are able to use the skills you have to make an impact in the corp.

http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/20695/ccp-outline-future-balancing-plans-for-eve-online-in-2013 in this post they are going to address skills in 2013 and many other things to. If you want a hand holding corp PM me and I'll provide you with my in game details and hook up and help you out.

Bandit

 

nightbandit Xfire Miniprofile
  lalartu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/22/05
Posts: 412

11/08/12 4:18:54 AM#6

I think your problem is that you feel like you won't have any reward from killing mobs in this game and that the skills are inependent of that

in reality though, killing each mob will give you credits and reputation and as reputation goes higher, you'll be able to unlock better quests that will eventually lead to better rewards and so on. so it's not useless at all

so the way I got used to it is by realizing that they're two separate, but complementary entities. one of them you have to set on timer and while the timer is ticking, you go and do other things.

once the timer is up, you'll be able to upgrade your ship or do something you couldn't do before

my Gaming Youtube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/lalartu


I review lots of indie games and MMORPGs

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18814

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

11/08/12 4:21:07 AM#7
EVE's real time skill training is something you either love or hate. I have limited time to play, yet I am happy to know my skills advanced at largely the same rate.

This rate can be strongly influenced by the purchase of expensive implants or even what distribution you put into your pilots character stats which can be respec'd periodically.

Your actual efforts to advance yourself doesn't come from your skills, (as someone said, they are just your current tools at hand), in fact in EVE real power comes in the terms of your actual knowledge of how the game systems work, player interaction, and your ability to earn ISK.

You will only succeed in these areas by regularly logging on and playing the game (OK, you'll likely end up doing a ton of reading and learning from others) and will have a huge advantage over someone who only logs in to train skills.

EVE takes an entirely different mindset than most any other MMORPG out there, and is not for everyone, particularly if they can't let go of the concept of working for their skills via in game actions.

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Malcanis

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3201

"A very special kind of stupidity"

11/08/12 10:03:59 AM#8
Originally posted by delimeat567

When I subscribe to the game, it only ever lasts a few days before I realize that all I can do to advance myself that day is queue up some training, then go play another game. If I go out and massacre some pirates with my missiles, I don't get extra experience - and for some reason, that is the one thing that really bothers me about the game. I love sci-fi, and it's one of those cliche situations where I really want to like this game, but I just can't get over the fact that my skills are in no way based on my actions. I kill 1 pirate, I will get that missile skill in 8 hours. I kill 1,000,000 pirates, I will get that missile skill in 8 hours. 

So I guess my question to you guys is, or my request for advice, how do you get around that? Doesn't it bother you that you aren't goin to finish a skill up no matter how much you use it simply because the game dictates that you can't earn the skill, you have to have it implanted into you. Let's just be honest, you aren't going to see a change in the skill system when the game is as old as it is. But, how do I get around the fact that whether or not I play, I'm advancing? If I play for 5 hours one day, I advance in skill as much as I do if I hadn't played for 5 seconds. 

I can't be the only one who is weirded out by this system - although perhaps I am the only one on these boards for obvious reasons. What do you guys do to fill your time? Playing the market is fun, but haulting isn't any good until you save up enough money to do the decent jobs. Joining a corporation was difficult as a newbie; everyone though I was going to steal from them. 

Anyway, just thought I would make a post here. I've been thinking about returning again lately, but am on the border like always.  Let me know what you guys think, and your answers to the questions I asked! Thanks a bunch guys and gals!

 

This is fundamentally incorrect. The weird feeling you're describing is freedom, and because you don't recognise it, you don't know what to do with it.

Your idea of "advancement" is based on 'normal' MMOs, where the aim of the game is essentially to increase numbers on your character sheet up to some predetermined limit. EVE is not based on this kind of advancement. Those numbers on your EVE character sheet have only one purpose:

YOUR SKILLS ARE ONLY TOOLS WITH WHICH TO ACHIEVE YOUR GOALS.

 

"Advancement" in EVE is about achieving your goals. The choice of that goal is up to you; see goonswarm defeated, fly a Machariel, accumulate 10 billion ISK in cash, lead a corporation, survive as a lone wolf in nullsec, RP as a blood-raider pirate in lo-sec, visit every system in EVE, whatever. There are an infinity of possible goals, and you're given the freedom to choose the one that suits you best. Everything about the game that isn't that goal is either a means or an obstacle to achieving it.

And one thing is for sure: unless you've decided that your goal is just to see the number of skillpoints you have increase, then whatever your goal is, you're not advancing it by not logging in.

In addition, you're neglecting a huge set of skills that you most definitely increase by playing the game; in fact there's no other way to increase them other than by playing: situational awareness, combat reflexes, fitting skills, module management, social skills, fleet management, fleet commanding, scouting, game knowledge, personal contacts, reputation, social skills, metagaming, PvP experience... these are AT LEAST as important for your gameplay as your character as training Energy Management 5 or whatever is.

Without these vital skills, you'll always be fresh meat, regardless of how many skillpoints your character has accumulated.

My God, man! Look at all this skill training time you've wasted already. Log in and get going!

Luckily for you, the game doesn't make you waste a minute on grinding character skills, so you can spend your whole session making up for the skills you've missed...

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  delimeat567

Novice Member

Joined: 7/12/10
Posts: 56

 
OP  11/08/12 2:04:03 PM#9

Originally posted by Malcanis

This is fundamentally incorrect. The weird feeling you're describing is freedom, and because you don't recognise it, you don't know what to do with it.

Your idea of "advancement" is based on 'normal' MMOs, where the aim of the game is essentially to increase numbers on your character sheet up to some predetermined limit. EVE is not based on this kind of advancement. Those numbers on your EVE character sheet have only one purpose:

YOUR SKILLS ARE ONLY TOOLS WITH WHICH TO ACHIEVE YOUR GOALS.

 

"Advancement" in EVE is about achieving your goals. The choice of that goal is up to you; see goonswarm defeated, fly a Machariel, accumulate 10 billion ISK in cash, lead a corporation, survive as a lone wolf in nullsec, RP as a blood-raider pirate in lo-sec, visit every system in EVE, whatever. There are an infinity of possible goals, and you're given the freedom to choose the one that suits you best. Everything about the game that isn't that goal is either a means or an obstacle to achieving it.

And one thing is for sure: unless you've decided that your goal is just to see the number of skillpoints you have increase, then whatever your goal is, you're not advancing it by not logging in.

In addition, you're neglecting a huge set of skills that you most definitely increase by playing the game; in fact there's no other way to increase them other than by playing: situational awareness, combat reflexes, fitting skills, module management, social skills, fleet management, fleet commanding, scouting, game knowledge, personal contacts, reputation, social skills, metagaming, PvP experience... these are AT LEAST as important for your gameplay as your character as training Energy Management 5 or whatever is.

Without these vital skills, you'll always be fresh meat, regardless of how many skillpoints your character has accumulated.

My God, man! Look at all this skill training time you've wasted already. Log in and get going!

Luckily for you, the game doesn't make you waste a minute on grinding character skills, so you can spend your whole session making up for the skills you've missed...

Unfortunantely, this is the kind of reply I was most afraid of. Let me try to clarify, because you clearly don't understand what I am saying, or you've ignored it, or simply put, we are just on exact opposite sides of the spectrum.

Advancement in every game is about achieving my goals. What I am saying disheartens me, which apparently you call "freedom," is that I don't have the ability to direclty influence the "skills" that are in this game. The problem that I have is that I want to have those skills act like other skills in other games, such as other sandboxes like SWG, Mortal Online, and so on and so forth. In EVE, however, these skills are more like "Certifications" (which is basically what they are called in-game anyway :P). As in most sandboxes, and to a larger extent, First-Person Shooters, my skills evolve as I play - I understand and accept that. 

My problem is not that the skills in this game act more as certifications than skills, it is that I can't upgrade those certifications by use - only by time.

Ok, I can't possibly know what your hobbies are in real life, but I'm going to talk about horseback riding. I didn't have to read any books to get better at horseback riding. And when it comes down to time, it isn't the amount of time I spend at the local barn that makes me better at horseback riding, but it is the amount of time I am riding the horse - using the skill. And as I got better at using the skill (riding the horse) I was able to lease new and better horses. 

So to repeat myself, my problem isn't that I don't feel like I am getting better at the game when I play, it is that I don't feel like I am able to progress as quickly as my time allotment allows. I want to upgrade my Crappy Missile Launcher to Decent Missile Launcher not because I spent 4 hours online OR offline, but beacuse I spent 4 hours online using my Crappy Missile Launcher enough that my avatar has a deeper understanding of their use. I feel as though I am being restricted by the skill-certification system.

 

Originally posted by Gdemami

While I never really played SWG, posts like this makes me very skeptical the game being a sandbox...

 

I'm not sure I understand. Please elaborate. Building skills through use makes a game not sandbox?

 

 

Originally posted by NightBandit

http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/20695/ccp-outline-future-balancing-plans-for-eve-online-in-2013 in this post they are going to address skills in 2013 and many other things to. If you want a hand holding corp PM me and I'll provide you with my in game details and hook up and help you out.

Bandit

 

 

Thank you for the offer sir, I will definitely PM you if I decide to come back. 

 

Originally posted by lalartu

I think your problem is that you feel like you won't have any reward from killing mobs in this game and that the skills are inependent of that

in reality though, killing each mob will give you credits and reputation and as reputation goes higher, you'll be able to unlock better quests that will eventually lead to better rewards and so on. so it's not useless at all

so the way I got used to it is by realizing that they're two separate, but complementary entities. one of them you have to set on timer and while the timer is ticking, you go and do other things.

once the timer is up, you'll be able to upgrade your ship or do something you couldn't do before

This is definitely my problem. I guess the even worse problem, is that I don't like the answer :P Reputation and money is something that is earned in many other games in addition to the skill upgrades. As I have probably repeated in this post three or four tiems now, I want my skill-certifications to upgrade with use, not just based on the amount of time my character is having a skillbook loaded into his head. 

 

 

As a complete side-note, I have to ask this next question of you guys. Whenever I imagine how skills are injected into someone's skill queue, I ALWAYS imagine someone just sitting down and reading "Missile Launcher Operation for Dummies!" Makes me laugh everytime.

 

 

Played: SWG, SWG:NGE, EQ2, Vanguard, LotRO, WoW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Mortal Online, Rift, Guild Wars, Fallen Earth, EVE Online, Ryzom, Dungeons and Dragons Online, World of Tanks, Aion, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars 2

  Muke

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1534

11/08/12 2:14:25 PM#10
Originally posted by delimeat567

This is definitely my problem. I guess the even worse problem, is that I don't like the answer :P Reputation and money is something that is earned in many other games in addition to the skill upgrades. As I have probably repeated in this post three or four tiems now, I want my skill-certifications to upgrade with use, not just based on the amount of time my character is having a skillbook loaded into his head. 

Don't be fooled, you can have the skill 'injected' as you say and maybe trained to max level 5, that certainly doesn't guarantee a successful use of the skills. I still have to learn to use those new skills through using your brain.

I kill players in big expensive ships all the time with a inferior alt character+ship....they think they are done when they learned the skill and have no idea to put it to best use.

You simply can't compare skilltraining in EVE with other themepark MMO's or even SWG.

1st you have to learn the skill to get access the bigger ships+modules, then you have to learn to use it properly, that's the real test.


As a complete side-note, I have to ask this next question of you guys. Whenever I imagine how skills are injected into someone's skill queue, I ALWAYS imagine someone just sitting down and reading "Missile Launcher Operation for Dummies!" Makes me laugh everytime.

Eve can be harsh if you think it's just 'grind--->train skill---->I PWNZOR you'

 

 

 

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  delimeat567

Novice Member

Joined: 7/12/10
Posts: 56

 
OP  11/08/12 2:32:35 PM#11
Originally posted by Muke

Don't be fooled, you can have the skill 'injected' as you say and maybe trained to max level 5, that certainly doesn't guarantee a successful use of the skills. I still have to learn to use those new skills through using your brain. 

Bleh. I must just be awful at presenting my point in this thread.

I'm not, in anyway, saying I want to be able to AFK my certs because that would make me good at the game. 

What I am saying is I want to see my certs increase as my skill in the game increases. As I gain, in real-life, more EVE skill, by doing missions, or PvP, or any of the millions of things I do in game - I want that to be translated into in-game advancement of my certifications. I miss the experience points earned in other games.

EVE tells me, "I don't care if you play for 72 hours this week, you are only getting to Missile Launcher 3!!!" Then it also tells someone else, "I don't care if you play for 72 seconds this week, you are only getting to Missile Launcher 3!!!"

While I will probably beat the crap out of that other player when we face off, he still gets to use the same equipment as me (assuming he has the money - which is easy to come by in EVE). That is the problem I have.

Played: SWG, SWG:NGE, EQ2, Vanguard, LotRO, WoW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Mortal Online, Rift, Guild Wars, Fallen Earth, EVE Online, Ryzom, Dungeons and Dragons Online, World of Tanks, Aion, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars 2

  Caldicot

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/10/07
Posts: 392

Hobbes was right, Rousseau was wrong.

11/09/12 6:02:56 AM#12
Originally posted by Gdemami


Back to your question.

You do not advance in EVE. Your skill points are only a resource, an asset, a tool to achieve your goals.

Treat it like that.


Take a look on what you got - your knowledge, your contacts, your finance, your assets, your skill points and think what you can do with them.


You can achieve amazing things even with minimal resources at hand.

This!

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

  Malcanis

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3201

"A very special kind of stupidity"

11/09/12 6:49:22 AM#13
Well if you're so desperately attached to Skinner-box experience grinding, then that's a shame. I don't see the attraction of spending hours to grind skills to do what I want compared to doing what I want for hours instead, but I guess different people see it differently.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18814

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

11/09/12 8:32:31 AM#14
Originally posted by delimeat567

Originally posted by Malcanis

This is fundamentally incorrect. The weird feeling you're describing is freedom, and because you don't recognise it, you don't know what to do with it.

Your idea of "advancement" is based on 'normal' MMOs, where the aim of the game is essentially to increase numbers on your character sheet up to some predetermined limit. EVE is not based on this kind of advancement. Those numbers on your EVE character sheet have only one purpose:

YOUR SKILLS ARE ONLY TOOLS WITH WHICH TO ACHIEVE YOUR GOALS.

 

"Advancement" in EVE is about achieving your goals. The choice of that goal is up to you; see goonswarm defeated, fly a Machariel, accumulate 10 billion ISK in cash, lead a corporation, survive as a lone wolf in nullsec, RP as a blood-raider pirate in lo-sec, visit every system in EVE, whatever. There are an infinity of possible goals, and you're given the freedom to choose the one that suits you best. Everything about the game that isn't that goal is either a means or an obstacle to achieving it.

And one thing is for sure: unless you've decided that your goal is just to see the number of skillpoints you have increase, then whatever your goal is, you're not advancing it by not logging in.

In addition, you're neglecting a huge set of skills that you most definitely increase by playing the game; in fact there's no other way to increase them other than by playing: situational awareness, combat reflexes, fitting skills, module management, social skills, fleet management, fleet commanding, scouting, game knowledge, personal contacts, reputation, social skills, metagaming, PvP experience... these are AT LEAST as important for your gameplay as your character as training Energy Management 5 or whatever is.

Without these vital skills, you'll always be fresh meat, regardless of how many skillpoints your character has accumulated.

My God, man! Look at all this skill training time you've wasted already. Log in and get going!

Luckily for you, the game doesn't make you waste a minute on grinding character skills, so you can spend your whole session making up for the skills you've missed...

Unfortunantely, this is the kind of reply I was most afraid of. Let me try to clarify, because you clearly don't understand what I am saying, or you've ignored it, or simply put, we are just on exact opposite sides of the spectrum.

Advancement in every game is about achieving my goals. What I am saying disheartens me, which apparently you call "freedom," is that I don't have the ability to direclty influence the "skills" that are in this game. The problem that I have is that I want to have those skills act like other skills in other games, such as other sandboxes like SWG, Mortal Online, and so on and so forth. In EVE, however, these skills are more like "Certifications" (which is basically what they are calleb vvvd in-game anyway :P). As in most sandboxes, and to a larger extent, First-Person Shooters, my skills evolve as I play - I understand and accept that. 

My problem is not that the skills in this game act more as certifications than skills, it is that I can't upgrade those certifications by use - only by time.

Ok, I can't possibly know what your hobbies are in real life, but I'm going to talk about horseback riding. I didn't have to read any books to get better at horseback riding. And when it comes down to time, it isn't the amount of time I spend at the local barn that makes me better at horseback riding, but it is the amount of time I am riding the horse - using the skill. And as I got better at using the skill (riding the horse) I was able to lease new and better horses. 

So to repeat myself, my problem isn't that I don't feel like I am getting better at the game when I play, it is that I don't feel like I am able to progress as quickly as my time allotment allows. I want to upgrade my Crappy Missile Launcher to Decent Missile Launcher not because I spent 4 hours online OR offline, but beacuse I spent 4 hours online using my Crappy Missile Launcher enough that my avatar has a deeper understanding of their use. I feel as though I am being restricted by the skill-certification system.

 

Originally posted by Gdemami

While I never really played SWG, posts like this makes me very skeptical the game being a sandbox...

 

I'm not sure I understand. Please elaborate. Building skills through use makes a game not sandbox?

 

 

Originally posted by NightBandit

http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/20695/ccp-outline-future-balancing-plans-for-eve-online-in-2013 in this post they are going to address skills in 2013 and many other things to. If you want a hand holding corp PM me and I'll provide you with my in game details and hook up and help you out.

Bandit

 

 

Thank you for the offer sir, I will definitely PM you if I decide to come back. 

 

Originally posted by lalartu

I think your problem is that you feel like you won't have any reward from killing mobs in this game and that the skills are inependent of that

in reality though, killing each mob will give you credits and reputation and as reputation goes higher, you'll be able to unlock better quests that will eventually lead to better rewards and so on. so it's not useless at all

so the way I got used to it is by realizing that they're two separate, but complementary entities. one of them you have to set on timer and while the timer is ticking, you go and do other things.

once the timer is up, you'll be able to upgrade your ship or do something you couldn't do before

This is definitely my problem. I guess the even worse problem, is that I don't like the answer :P Reputation and money is something that is earned in many other games in addition to the skill upgrades. As I have probably repeated in this post three or four tiems now, I want my skill-certifications to upgrade with use, not just based on the amount of time my character is having a skillbook loaded into his head. 

 

 

As a complete side-note, I have to ask this next question of you guys. Whenever I imagine how skills are injected into someone's skill queue, I ALWAYS imagine someone just sitting down and reading "Missile Launcher Operation for Dummies!" Makes me laugh everytime.

 

 

C'mon, seriously, you want your skills to go up with use?  Why, so you can macro them all to the top like everyone else does in those games you mentioned?

Skill based leveling for the most part is a broken mechanic in most games due to the macroing so I prefer EVE 's which keeps it on a level playing field. (and also provides incentive to have more than one character/account, because they all train at the same rate, regardless which one I play)

But like I said, it is a love it or hate it system, clearly you lie in the latter camp.

 

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6829

11/09/12 8:41:55 AM#15


Originally posted by delimeat567

I'm not sure I understand. Please elaborate. Building skills through use makes a game not sandbox?


"Building skills" as a goal makes the game not a sandbox.


In EVE it does not matter how many skill points you have, what matters is how you use them.


"I want to upgrade my Crappy Missile Launcher to Decent Missile Launcher not because I spent 4 hours online OR offline, but beacuse I spent 4 hours online using my Crappy Missile Launcher"

Simply makes no sense in EVE.

It is like producer of those "Crappy Missile Launchers" was complaining that his production lines are not working faster because he was actively playing 30 hours this week. If you are not satisfied with your profits and how long the batches take you either change how you do things or simply start doing something else.

EVE Online is build on entirely different principles many people are used to. I am not saying you cannot play it as any regular MMO and ignore all of that but there is a good chance you won't find usual traits other games have.


  Yalexy

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1020

11/09/12 9:57:49 AM#16

EvE Online is not about skillpoints or levels, but about knowledge, situational experince and tactics.

The advantage you gain by playing more then others is your knowlegde and situational experience and the knowledge of what tactics do or do not work. In addition you'll have way more ressources (ISK) at hand by playing more then others.

Be reminded tho, that all of this doesn't apply, if you're only interested in PvE. EvE is focused on PvP.

  delimeat567

Novice Member

Joined: 7/12/10
Posts: 56

 
OP  11/09/12 11:40:48 AM#17

Originally posted by Gdemami

"Building skills" as a goal makes the game not a sandbox.

Originally posted by Kyleran

C'mon, seriously, you want your skills to go up with use?  Why, so you can macro them all to the top like everyone else does in those games you mentioned?

Skill based leveling for the most part is a broken mechanic in most games due to the macroing so I prefer EVE 's which keeps it on a level playing field. (and also provides incentive to have more than one character/account, because they all train at the same rate, regardless which one I play)

But like I said, it is a love it or hate it system, clearly you lie in the latter camp. 

Originally posted by Malcanis
Well if you're so desperately attached to Skinner-box experience grinding, then that's a shame. I don't see the attraction of spending hours to grind skills to do what I want compared to doing what I want for hours instead, but I guess different people see it differently.

Gdemami:

I think this is a point we are just going to have to disagree on then. When I played EVE, I very much played in part to build my skills in the game. I would target those groups of certifications (can't remember what they are called anymore - but the groups of certs that are called like Caldari - MIlitary - Basic or something of the sort) to get myself started. Similarly when playing SWG I would target "Master Rifleman" and go about getting it. For me, getting skills (both in-game represented and gaming skills) is a goal. 

That all being said, I do understand what you mean. I just happen to have a different opinion. Perhaps it is the experience points you gain in SWG - which you don't gain in EVE - that make it seem like it is less sandboxy. By expressing that you are gaining skill in-game, and in real life, that breaks the immersion for you. The same is simply not true for me.

Thanks for the replies though! Good discussion.

 

Kyleran:

Never once did I mention wanting to macro my skills. People that do that aren't playing the game. I'm not sure what I said implied that I want to use macros to level up in the game. Additionally, people using macros aren't all that common (not including the entire population of East Asia, of course =D) in my experience. 

And maybe "hate" is too strong of a word. The whole point of this thread is not only to see if it bothers anyone else, but to see how you players view the skill system in this game. And while many of the posts have been indicative of the outwardly hostile EVE community that I always hear about, others have been very informative - and have made me want to return to the game. The perspectives that have been shared with me do help me to see the skill system in a new light. And although I may not be a big fan of it, it has certainly lessened my dislike. 

So perhaps you could say, I used to hate it. But I now only dislike it ;)

Malcanis:

Again, I am not sure where you got the premise for me wanting to grind for hours, as that is not something I really enjoy unless the combat mechanics of a game are stellar and rewarding. I've mentioned before that there are a million things to do in EVE, but I am a combat-oriented PvP player. I like blowing other players up. When I'm not doing that, I enjoy employing some mild real-world economic lessons to the game and making a decent profit off of it. I'm still only in college for a degree in Economics, so I'm certainly no expert. And when neither of those sound fun, sometimes I just like whizzing about the universe (although warping through planets bugs me from time to time -_-). 

I don't want to grind for hours anymore than the average player would. I just want to have the option.

Played: SWG, SWG:NGE, EQ2, Vanguard, LotRO, WoW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Mortal Online, Rift, Guild Wars, Fallen Earth, EVE Online, Ryzom, Dungeons and Dragons Online, World of Tanks, Aion, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars 2

  delimeat567

Novice Member

Joined: 7/12/10
Posts: 56

 
OP  11/09/12 11:45:09 AM#18
Originally posted by Yalexy

EvE Online is not about skillpoints or levels, but about knowledge, situational experince and tactics.

The advantage you gain by playing more then others is your knowlegde and situational experience and the knowledge of what tactics do or do not work. In addition you'll have way more ressources (ISK) at hand by playing more then others.

Be reminded tho, that all of this doesn't apply, if you're only interested in PvE. EvE is focused on PvP.

Yalexy:

Can I just take a moment to thank you for not insinuating anything out of context? For not assuming I want to exploit the game, or play it like a power-leveler? Thank you. Thank you so much. (this is not sarcastic, I am actually thanking you)

I've very happy to be reaffirmed that EVE is focused on PvP. By the way, is it EVE or EvE? Odd question...

My approach to the game, and its skills, is definitely the thing that is in need of attunement if I want to resubscribe. I need to accept that if I want to play EVE, there are no skills, just certifications. The real "skills" are completely dependent on what I do in real-life, and not arbitrary numbers that other games employ.

Thanks a bunch Yalexy!!

 

Played: SWG, SWG:NGE, EQ2, Vanguard, LotRO, WoW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Mortal Online, Rift, Guild Wars, Fallen Earth, EVE Online, Ryzom, Dungeons and Dragons Online, World of Tanks, Aion, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars 2

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18814

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

11/09/12 12:08:04 PM#19
Originally posted by delimeat567

Originally posted by Gdemami

"Building skills" as a goal makes the game not a sandbox.

Originally posted by Kyleran

C'mon, seriously, you want your skills to go up with use?  Why, so you can macro them all to the top like everyone else does in those games you mentioned?

Skill based leveling for the most part is a broken mechanic in most games due to the macroing so I prefer EVE 's which keeps it on a level playing field. (and also provides incentive to have more than one character/account, because they all train at the same rate, regardless which one I play)

But like I said, it is a love it or hate it system, clearly you lie in the latter camp. 

Originally posted by Malcanis
Well if you're so desperately attached to Skinner-box experience grinding, then that's a shame. I don't see the attraction of spending hours to grind skills to do what I want compared to doing what I want for hours instead, but I guess different people see it differently.

 

Kyleran:

Never once did I mention wanting to macro my skills. People that do that aren't playing the game. I'm not sure what I said implied that I want to use macros to level up in the game. Additionally, people using macros aren't all that common (not including the entire population of East Asia, of course =D) in my experience. 

And maybe "hate" is too strong of a word. The whole point of this thread is not only to see if it bothers anyone else, but to see how you players view the skill system in this game. And while many of the posts have been indicative of the outwardly hostile EVE community that I always hear about, others have been very informative - and have made me want to return to the game. The perspectives that have been shared with me do help me to see the skill system in a new light. And although I may not be a big fan of it, it has certainly lessened my dislike. 

So perhaps you could say, I used to hate it. But I now only dislike it ;)

I probably should have tossed in a few emotes or something to indicate my reply was more tongue in cheek, truthfully i don't understand your motivation to work for skills when an alternative exists, but then I don't understand why people eat sushi either, just seems weird to me. 

Regarding the highlighted comment, there's a reason that CCP itself created a tongue in cheek video called HTFU, go check it out if you want to see what sort of universe they actively promote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q

If you took my reply as hostile, then you don't understand EVE or even these forums for that matter.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  ChoadSauce

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/18/07
Posts: 91

If worse comes to worse...were all fucked!

11/09/12 1:08:53 PM#20

One thing that you have to keep in mind is that eve is not like other MMO's. It's a game where you have to MAKE your own fun. It provides hundreds of tools for the player to be able to do whatever they want.

You have to learn to ignore your restrictions from skills.....Hell, Ignore the skills alltogether (just make sure something is queued) and go do something. Believe me, 8 hours queue time is nothing compared to some other skills. I had a skill going on for 25 days, I would go insane and probably quit if I kept paying attention to "that next skill".

 

Figure out what it is what you want to do, and pursue it. I think your main problem is not having any guidance through your journey into the Eve world. You need to find a corporation that best suits your interests. Weather it being mining, PVE or PVP. there are literally hundreds of things you can do. 

 

I remember for a good month, I spent most of my time traveling through systems with expensive cargo, trading with other stations. Its risky and really gets the heart pumped. 

 

Find a corp that's very ambitious and determined for long term goals, and see what it is you can help them with etc.

Learn about how other ships operate, how they are fitted etc. Believe me, other players are always more then happy to talk about their ships, they never get tired of it lol.

 

Hope this helps

_The Sauce Man

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