Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Can you think of something that most themepark MMO almost never try?

 

From my point of view, I rarely see Themepark MMO deliver Raid Dungeons that are for lower level players. Usually they are pure endgame content.

Reason being that people would work very hard for gear there goin to out lvl very quickly. Theamparks allow for fast progression thus negating the need for hard raid content at lower lvls. wouldnt be worth the time.

But do all raid dungeons have to be harder content? Why can't smaller party dungeons be the hardest content instead?

most difficulty comes from playing in synergy not from personal performance. the lager the raid the more potential obstacles.

at its core raiding is about teamwork, and that's what makes or breaks it.

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Can you think of something that most themepark MMO almost never try?

 

From my point of view, I rarely see Themepark MMO deliver Raid Dungeons that are for lower level players. Usually they are pure endgame content.

Reason being that people would work very hard for gear there goin to out lvl very quickly. Theamparks allow for fast progression thus negating the need for hard raid content at lower lvls. wouldnt be worth the time.

But do all raid dungeons have to be harder content? Why can't smaller party dungeons be the hardest content instead?

most difficulty comes from playing in synergy not from personal performance. the lager the raid the more potential obstacles.

 

at its core raiding is about teamwork, and that's what makes or breaks it.

I disagree. The Fight themselves are designed that way to require coordination on heavy hard levels. Group size isn't the major factor here, since 25 Lich king can be harder to beat than say 25 vanilla WoW Raid (forgot the troll raid name) was in vanilla WoW it's because the Raid is designed to be hard. Not the group size. It's just since we never see developers try to make party dungeons

large scale, while keeping the same difficulty, we tend to always see large scale Dungeons as the hardest PvE content,

people over time linked the two together.

"Endgame Raid Dungeons are always the hardest form of PvE in a THEMEPARK MMO. Therefore, all Raids always are the hardest form of PvE in any THEMEPARK MMO."

In the medical field we call this mindset "ILLUSORY CORRELATION" were Humans draw conclusions about how the world works because they are able to see how one thing causes another. Which can be misleading sometimes like now.

we assume all Raids have to have lock out timers, and have to be hardest form of PvE gameplay, because it's always used that way in the past.

Another way to look at Illusory Correlation is like this:

"Most ice cream is eaten during the summer. Most drownings occur in the summer. Therefore, ice cream causes drowning."

Originally posted by MMOExposed

25 vanilla WoW Raid 

Shame on you :)

Flame on!

:)

I would actually welcome an MMO with a SLOW leveling pace.

and i would welcome low level raids. Kind of like entry level raids that get harder and tougher the deeper you get it.

You could even have higher players scale down in level (think GW2).

Would be a cool guild activity while leveling.

     I didn't read all the post.. but I would love to see a MMO that focuses completely on character achievements and biography then gear and physical rewards..  An example of this would be a military career..  I designed a MMO on spreadsheets that as your character progresses (levels) he/she earns medal, ribbons and awards.. These things are just prestigious show pieces, and during this career path you earn a reputation that unlocks other things in the game that are NOT  "gear" or loot type rewards..   The goal of such a game is to build a unique character biography..

     PS..  I would like to see a manditory character "retirement"...  This means that each character you create you have a limited game time clock.. Once you meet that ceiling, your character is forced into manditory retirement.. This means you can still walk around enjoying your character in public zones (such as main cities) and can even enjoy other aspects of the game like crafting, trading and whatnot.. BUT.. your character will be disabled from combat..  This means your rank and character progression stops.. 

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Can you think of something that most themepark MMO almost never try?

 

From my point of view, I rarely see Themepark MMO deliver Raid Dungeons that are for lower level players. Usually they are pure endgame content.

To be fare Vanguard has it's first major dungeon at level 13, yes it's a group dungeon but it's on par with any raid dungeon you get in current MMOs. In fact many of Vanguard dungeons would be considered raid dungeons in any one of the current MMOs.

Dungeons like Khegor's End which is a vast dungeon that takes you from level 13 to level 18 over a period of days, it's vast. Or you could look at dungeons like Ksavari Gulch which takes you from level 15-20 over a period of days. These are just two of the dungeons that are low level but are bigger than most end game raid dungeons you get in MMOs today.

Both these dungeons dwarf any dungeon you would find in rift or GW2 and TSW and at least on par with WOW end dungeons.

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by MMOExposed

25 vanilla WoW Raid 

Shame on you :)

Flame on!

:)

let's say 20man vanilla wow raid for sake of argument :)

Originally posted by Djildjamesh

I would actually welcome an MMO with a SLOW leveling pace.

and i would welcome low level raids. Kind of like entry level raids that get harder and tougher the deeper you get it.

You could even have higher players scale down in level (think GW2).

 

Would be a cool guild activity while leveling.

As would i but the low lvl raid dungeon in a traditional theampark, imo, cant be done. The leveling speed is just to high and you would out level the content to fast.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Can you think of something that most themepark MMO almost never try?

 

From my point of view, I rarely see Themepark MMO deliver Raid Dungeons that are for lower level players. Usually they are pure endgame content.

Reason being that people would work very hard for gear there goin to out lvl very quickly. Theamparks allow for fast progression thus negating the need for hard raid content at lower lvls. wouldnt be worth the time.

But do all raid dungeons have to be harder content? Why can't smaller party dungeons be the hardest content instead?

most difficulty comes from playing in synergy not from personal performance. the lager the raid the more potential obstacles.

 

at its core raiding is about teamwork, and that's what makes or breaks it.

I disagree. The Fight themselves are designed that way to require coordination on heavy hard levels. Group size isn't the major factor here, since 25 Lich king can be harder to beat than say 25 vanilla WoW Raid (forgot the troll raid name) was in vanilla WoW it's because the Raid is designed to be hard. Not the group size. It's just since we never see developers try to make party dungeons

large scale, while keeping the same difficulty, we tend to always see large scale Dungeons as the hardest PvE content,

people over time linked the two together.

"Endgame Raid Dungeons are always the hardest form of PvE in a THEMEPARK MMO. Therefore, all Raids always are the hardest form of PvE in any THEMEPARK MMO."

In the medical field we call this mindset "ILLUSORY CORRELATION" were Humans draw conclusions about how the world works because they are able to see how one thing causes another. Which can be misleading sometimes like now.

we assume all Raids have to have lock out timers, and have to be hardest form of PvE gameplay, because it's always used that way in the past.

Another way to look at Illusory Correlation is like this:

"Most ice cream is eaten during the summer. Most drownings occur in the summer. Therefore, ice cream causes drowning."

Can you prove otherwise?

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Reason being that people would work very hard for gear there goin to out lvl very quickly. Theamparks allow for fast progression thus negating the need for hard raid content at lower lvls. wouldnt be worth the time.

But do all raid dungeons have to be harder content? Why can't smaller party dungeons be the hardest content instead?

First of all, I like the idea of learning to make stuff with different skins by studying gear, great idea X. :)

And yes, you can make the massive player content easier and the 5 man dungeons hard. GW2 did just that and a lot of people are complaining.

The onlyy difference in GW2 from your idea is that raids are often instanced and usually demands a fixed number of players.

Lower level raids were possible in old MMOs when leveling took long time and you actually had use of good gear by leveling. You could make a game like that, or better, you could make a game without levels at all with less gap between noobs and experienced players. Then you could have easier and harder raids.

It is clear that themeparks needs to change, the old EQ/Wow model have been doing badly the last few years (even if Rift have done Okay) but exactly how they will do it is still hard to say. I think levels need to go and that they need to put a lot more focus on customization, both on skills and stats.

I think raids need to improve as well, for one thing they should scale from 12 to 40 players depending on how many players you find to lessen downtime (and no, having 2 modes aint enough). And they also needs to put in a bit more random and smarter boss AI. Raiding is a feature that needs to improve a whole lot if we want it to be in future MMOs. The idea is indeed good and it can be fun but far too often is it just annoying right now, and waiting time for certain players.

4 things:

• Slower and more rewarding leveling.

That way you can take your time run instances, get gear you could use for longer then 1 hour.

• Meaningfull crafting.

• Dynamic Mobs

have them try to Rob players and NPC's on the roads,

have wolves in a cave and not in a static random place by some tree's. etc etc

• 1 kill quests not 10+ kill quests

and have bonuses in the quest for killing other mobs that happen to be around the quest mob, like if you have to kill a Dragon and there are baby dragons in the area also, if you kill 1 baby dragon is gives a small bonus, if you kill 3 you get a better bonus, etc.

I have way more ideas, but well these are just a few. ;-)

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Can you think of something that most themepark MMO almost never try?

 

From my point of view, I rarely see Themepark MMO deliver Raid Dungeons that are for lower level players. Usually they are pure endgame content.

EQ2 (launched 8 years ago) had raid content all the way through.  Launch with 50 levels, the lowest raid was around level 20 and there were raids all the way up to 50.   Rift also has raids all the way through, so does GW2. 

As to your question...something i find that Themepark MMOs don't do is break through the "why is Bob the Dragon still alive after I killed him?" problem.  In theory it would be relatively simple to dynamically change the name of the dragon so that every time the dragon is killed, it's technically a "different" dragon, even though the mechanic is the same.   This is one of the most difficult concepts for MMO immersion, yet most themeparks never bother to address it.