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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » We got enough Games. Give me a World.

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186 posts found
  Deriums

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/09
Posts: 33

11/05/12 7:24:23 PM#121

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/893

 

check that out, it's a crafting focused MMO that is NOT full out PvP. It was just listed today, and there should be an interview in a few days on it.

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

11/05/12 7:25:57 PM#122

I actually followed and played Xsyon.  Graphics are subjective.  There are/were many problems with Xsyon that can turn off even the most hardcore of sandbox gamers.  For instance, it had no real "survival" aspect to it.  Sure, you could PvP or gank people if you wanted, but there was no gameplay driver to make people fight much.  There were very few mobs to worry about, etc.  An example of the driver in another sandbox could be Star Wars Galaxies, where there were factions and the Galactic Civil War with very strong opposing sides, and even the neutral aspect which was strong.

Xsyon has a pretty cool crafting system, I think, though once you have crafted your brains out and set up a camp with your friends, there's nothing else much more going on.  That is the problem with it. 

I don't think very many people who like sandboxes want just an open sandbox with no theme, no combat or economic drivers, etc.  There has to be a 'gameplay' element to it, not just a simulation. 

Finally, Xsyon's devs have few resources, so development is ridiculously slow. If they had a real game shop, they might have a pretty cool niche sandbox by now. This assumes they recognize that their "game" is missing gameplay.  Last time I tried it, it was just a crafting simulator with some very occasional PvP, and utterly rare PvE.

 

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

11/05/12 7:32:09 PM#123
Also... STOP calling Second Life a game.  It is not a game.  It's more like a 3D America Online or a 3D microcosm of the web than it is a game.  You can build a game within Second Life, if you have the time and money, but it is not a game.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6132

11/05/12 7:45:14 PM#124
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Also... STOP calling Second Life a game.  It is not a game.  It's more like a 3D America Online or a 3D microcosm of the web than it is a game.  You can build a game within Second Life, if you have the time and money, but it is not a game.

If LinkedIn can be considered an online social game why not Second Life.

Curse you AquaScum!

  muffins89

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 1255

11/05/12 8:24:11 PM#125
Originally posted by MindTrigger

I actually followed and played Xsyon.  Graphics are subjective.  There are/were many problems with Xsyon that can turn off even the most hardcore of sandbox gamers.  For instance, it had no real "survival" aspect to it.  Sure, you could PvP or gank people if you wanted, but there was no gameplay driver to make people fight much.  There were very few mobs to worry about, etc.  An example of the driver in another sandbox could be Star Wars Galaxies, where there were factions and the Galactic Civil War with very strong opposing sides, and even the neutral aspect which was strong.

Xsyon has a pretty cool crafting system, I think, though once you have crafted your brains out and set up a camp with your friends, there's nothing else much more going on.  That is the problem with it. 

I don't think very many people who like sandboxes want just an open sandbox with no theme, no combat or economic drivers, etc.  There has to be a 'gameplay' element to it, not just a simulation. 

Finally, Xsyon's devs have few resources, so development is ridiculously slow. If they had a real game shop, they might have a pretty cool niche sandbox by now. This assumes they recognize that their "game" is missing gameplay.  Last time I tried it, it was just a crafting simulator with some very occasional PvP, and utterly rare PvE.

 

that's kind of the point i was trying to make.  what is stopping people in xyson from forming their own factions?  and creating their own 'civil war'?  i never played swg,  but im assuming the factions were something that the game developers put into the game.  so do sandboxers want to create their own content?  or do they want the developers to set up the content for them?  it sounds like you want a sandbox with themepark elements.  and not a true sandbox.  (which is fine,  i dont want to seem like im calling you out)  im just generally curious.  there seem to be alot of sandbox proponents on this site.  but there doesnt seem to be a very definitive definition of a sandbox.  in my eyes xyson is a sandbox and swg is closer to themepark.

I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

11/05/12 8:26:03 PM#126
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Also... STOP calling Second Life a game.  It is not a game.  It's more like a 3D America Online or a 3D microcosm of the web than it is a game.  You can build a game within Second Life, if you have the time and money, but it is not a game.

If LinkedIn can be considered an online social game why not Second Life.

If you've ever actually used Second Life, you will know why it is not a game.  Linked In likely has what is called "gamification" of their site, which does not make something a game as such, but adds game-like features to something that is otherwise mind-numbingly boring, such as Linked In.

Second Life is a virtual world sandbox, that like I said, is much more like a 3D world wide web  than it is a game.  Just like you can create a website that is a game on the web, you can create a space in Second Life that is a game.  However, Second Life is more like a set of rules and tools, a very literal sandbox in many ways.

You can build pretty much whatever you want in Second Life, and most of what is there is not game content.  I built a groovy smoke-out tiki hut with a tropical landscape and waterfall around it once.  Even had animated bongs and such.  No gameplay though.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20689

11/05/12 8:34:16 PM#127
Originally posted by Kenze
Originally posted by apocoluster
   Disagree.  Give me games.  The real world is plenty enough Sandboxy for me.  I play games to get away from it.

 

^this x100

Yeh .. this x 1000.

I play games to have fun, and to be entertained, not to live a second life.

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

11/05/12 8:35:38 PM#128
Originally posted by muffins89
Originally posted by MindTrigger

I actually followed and played Xsyon.  Graphics are subjective.  There are/were many problems with Xsyon that can turn off even the most hardcore of sandbox gamers.  For instance, it had no real "survival" aspect to it.  Sure, you could PvP or gank people if you wanted, but there was no gameplay driver to make people fight much.  There were very few mobs to worry about, etc.  An example of the driver in another sandbox could be Star Wars Galaxies, where there were factions and the Galactic Civil War with very strong opposing sides, and even the neutral aspect which was strong.

Xsyon has a pretty cool crafting system, I think, though once you have crafted your brains out and set up a camp with your friends, there's nothing else much more going on.  That is the problem with it. 

I don't think very many people who like sandboxes want just an open sandbox with no theme, no combat or economic drivers, etc.  There has to be a 'gameplay' element to it, not just a simulation. 

Finally, Xsyon's devs have few resources, so development is ridiculously slow. If they had a real game shop, they might have a pretty cool niche sandbox by now. This assumes they recognize that their "game" is missing gameplay.  Last time I tried it, it was just a crafting simulator with some very occasional PvP, and utterly rare PvE.

 

that's kind of the point i was trying to make.  what is stopping people in xyson from forming their own factions?  and creating their own 'civil war'?  i never played swg,  but im assuming the factions were something that the game developers put into the game.  so do sandboxers want to create their own content?  or do they want the developers to set up the content for them?  it sounds like you want a sandbox with themepark elements.  and not a true sandbox.  (which is fine,  i dont want to seem like im calling you out)  im just generally curious.  there seem to be alot of sandbox proponents on this site.  but there doesnt seem to be a very definitive definition of a sandbox.  in my eyes xyson is a sandbox and swg is closer to themepark.

I have though a lot about that over the years, and in some ways I agree with you.  However, it leaned much more towards a very heavily Star Wars themed sandbox than it did a theme park.  There was so little questing content in it that the areas that actually had questing were individually called theme parks, such as Jabba's theme park, and the Rebel or Imperial theme parks.  That type of content only made up a very small percentage of what people were actually doing in the game.  

I did always enjoy the chapter content they would add, but those were always like special limited content that were considered nice treats.  I would still love to see some theme park content in a sandbox, but I don't want it to make up most of the game play.  I think having some themed "rules" to the game like SWG did is also a great idea so that you don't end up with the Xsyon problems with few too many gameplay elements.

Believe it or not, SWG was almost completely player-driven, even after the NGE, though they did add a bunch of quest content over time with the NGE.  It still had gaping holes in it for the purpose of leveling, and there was no end game.  Even with all the hacks they did for the NGE, it still never was really a full theme park.  All SOE ended up doing was pissing off their loyal player base in the end.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  3-4thElf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 497

11/05/12 8:37:24 PM#129

I want a living game world.

A virtual world is fine, and there's a few options out there to get that really.

What I'd like is a compeditive, gritty, fun, and engaging game to enjoy with others.

a yo ho ho

  GN-003

Novice Member

Joined: 10/22/10
Posts: 78

11/05/12 9:01:09 PM#130
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kenze
Originally posted by apocoluster
   Disagree.  Give me games.  The real world is plenty enough Sandboxy for me.  I play games to get away from it.

 

^this x100

Yeh .. this x 1000.

I play games to have fun, and to be entertained, not to live a second life.

Fun is subjective, big guy. What entertains you might not entertain the next guy. Crazy concept, I know. Who's to say a virtual world has to mimic our own? "You can do those things in real life!" Oh, is that so? So an immersive, Sci-Fi setting is possible in the real world? Where do you live? That's like saying sports game shouldn't exist because you can play them in real life, or simulation games shouldn't exist.

  Not_Khaeros

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/12
Posts: 32

11/05/12 9:10:05 PM#131

A true sandbox game has two main types of players:

 

Creators, who spend most of their playtime creating content, and

Leechers, who spend most of their time consuming said content,

with the majority of players being leechers and the minority being creators.

 

In order for a sandbox game to be good, you need enough creators to match the consumption rate of the leechers to ensure that there's always something fresh to do.

 

'Creators' generally don't receive much credit for their work, which serves as a lack of motivation.  Second Life (and others similar) provide an interesting way to reward creators - by allowing them to simply charge real money for copies of their work. 

For most sandbox gamers, though, the idea of having to pay microtransactions just to play certain parts of a game, especially user content (which is usually at a lower standard than dev content), is straight retarded.  So creators in sandbox games generally receive no recognition, useless amounts of recognition, or just get slaughtered in the full loot pvp cesspool like any other player.

 

Of course, there's a distinct advantage to full loot FFA sandboxes - the leechers become the content for other leechers!  This is a great way for developers to solve the underlying content problem - after all, if you suck really badly at making a game system that has enough content creation tools and support for creators, why not just make everyone content themselves?

 

The bottom line is that most gamers here on MMORPG.com could not handle being a creator, and would not enjoy playing a sandbox where they can't gank everything in sight because it would be too slow-paced and boring to keep their attention.

 

What most people on MMORPG.com actually want is a game with freedom of choice, that also has some sort of direction (however loose it may be).  This can be a 'themepark' or a 'sandbox', but not a real sandbox that relies on players to create content.

  Drakxii

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/08
Posts: 599

11/05/12 9:13:29 PM#132

I perfer giant hybrids like SWG, Vanguard, and EVE are/were.  Don't just throw me in the world and say go, but once I have got my feet wet and understand what  is going on in the lore/world I REALLY don't need to be led from one quest hub to the next. 

 

So... I guess my vote is for game worlds?

 

P.S. for all you poeple that think Sandbox = FFA PVP.  SHUT UP!  You can have a sandbox without FFA pvp and you can have a themepark with FFA pvp.  

I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3335

Poacher killer.

11/05/12 9:39:17 PM#133
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kenze
Originally posted by apocoluster
   Disagree.  Give me games.  The real world is plenty enough Sandboxy for me.  I play games to get away from it.

 

^this x100

Yeh .. this x 1000.

I play games to have fun, and to be entertained, not to live a second life.

Fun and entertainment; yup, that's why we're all here. Duh.

The "world" type mmos that have induced me to sink my teeth in for years (not months or mere weeks) have all delivered and then some. Who the hell wants a second life, or job for that matter that doesn't even pay? Precious few. I have more "fun" in these types of games than I do any other, and that "fun" is much more dynamic in a world mmo.

I was drawn to this genre with the prospect of playing in the "WORLD" of the Warcraft IP. The idea of actually "being" and progressing one of those units from the RTS titles that I was very fond of was an incredible concept. I was blown away when I finally got my chance in 2004. Now here was a young genre that was going to be something different. A genre of video gaming that could deliver us to the next stage of gaming maturation. The possibilities were endless.

Then came the Battlegrounds. That's when it quickly became clear that the whole thing was such a fragile cocoon. For me, it seemed that just when the dream was being realized, it was being torn apart even faster. That cocoon of awe stagnated and fell to rot. Instead of metamorphosizing into something new and unique, here we are in almost 2013 with this genre devolving into a horrible and seemingly unguided messy collage of other more simple genres.

Shame is an understatement for what we have now, but I'm happy as hell you're having fun jumping (mmo) games like they're all a part of some ancient giant arcade room. I loved the arcades and all they had to offer, but mmos could and should have been something more grand. 

 

"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  shirlnt

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/06
Posts: 354

11/05/12 9:41:33 PM#134

People have varying ideas about what "sandbox" in a game means....and I guess there are varying levels of "sandbox."  Second Life, for example, is probably the most sandbox a game can get. Nearly everything in it is player created content with very few "rules" guiding it (outside of the TOS) and no tasks/goals/character development that is uniform across the entire "world."  Any "games" in it are created by players and the rules and mechanics of the game are defined by the creators.

 

I love the idea of a "world" but after SWG I'm very picky about what I want in my world  (I've said more than once that SWG spoiled other MMOs for me.

-- I want character development, not levels, with the ability to mix and match skills (none of this "you chose to be a ranger, here are the ranger skills, you may be able to choose between some ranger skills or develop them further but, other than some crafting skills that will probably be useless due to better loot, you can ONLY be a ranger" stuff) ...[edit:] in SWG, guild members could leave for a month or more then return and join right in the guild activities, without levels, there was no outleveling or being outleveled by others creating problems with being able to do the same activities....any other SWG players remember getting 500xp (the max amount of combat xp off a kill one could get in SWG) off squill kills as a newbie from joining a group for missions from terminals (when I first started playing the groups formed in Anchorhead)

-- I want a variety of professions in the game with all professions having an important roll to play, I'd love to have a reason to have 2 or 3 accounts (crafters, entertainers, medics, combat, tamers, farmers....etc....)

-- I want choices about how I'm going to develop my character (in SWG, there were those planets that were more deadly but a person could stay on the same planet from newbie to fully developed character if that's the way the person wanted to play, or they could  go to any planet in the galaxy as soon as they could afford it if they had people willing to take them or didn't mind dying in one hit)

-- quests lines as a part of the game design can be good, but I want to be able to do them whenever not "first go here and do quest line A then go to that place and do quest line B.....oops, you've reached level X? sorry, no xp for you if you choose to do this quest line now; "  I also don't want to get such a small amount of xp from random kills that it is a frustrating way to develop my character....I enjoyed that, in SWG, one could kill random spawns, choose missions from mission terminals, do some of the "themeparks," kill area bosses, or go to caves/dungeons all as viable ways to get combat xp .... some people complain about how much time SWG required but if I had 30 minutes to an hour to play, I could grab a couple of missions from a terminal that were close to town and be done where many of today's "MMOs" require a lot of running from point A to point B to do a task then having to run back to point A or over to point C for a "safe" place to log out, and those points are preset distances for the next task in line

-- I want player cities and server cities, and I do not want perma-death or the ability to lose my house, I don't mind having some buildings that can be taken over/destroyed but those buildings should be designed specifically for that purpose

-- open pvp turns me off a game immediately, call it whatever name you want; too many people who think it proves something that a maxed out player can one shot kill a new player (really? the damage done by that weapon is greater that the new players max health, of course the player died, how much skill did that really take) .... and too many "griefers"

 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19530

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

11/05/12 10:23:14 PM#135
Originally posted by muffins89
Originally posted by MindTrigger

I actually followed and played Xsyon.  Graphics are subjective.  There are/were many problems with Xsyon that can turn off even the most hardcore of sandbox gamers.  For instance, it had no real "survival" aspect to it.  Sure, you could PvP or gank people if you wanted, but there was no gameplay driver to make people fight much.  There were very few mobs to worry about, etc.  An example of the driver in another sandbox could be Star Wars Galaxies, where there were factions and the Galactic Civil War with very strong opposing sides, and even the neutral aspect which was strong.

Xsyon has a pretty cool crafting system, I think, though once you have crafted your brains out and set up a camp with your friends, there's nothing else much more going on.  That is the problem with it. 

I don't think very many people who like sandboxes want just an open sandbox with no theme, no combat or economic drivers, etc.  There has to be a 'gameplay' element to it, not just a simulation. 

Finally, Xsyon's devs have few resources, so development is ridiculously slow. If they had a real game shop, they might have a pretty cool niche sandbox by now. This assumes they recognize that their "game" is missing gameplay.  Last time I tried it, it was just a crafting simulator with some very occasional PvP, and utterly rare PvE.

 

that's kind of the point i was trying to make.  what is stopping people in xyson from forming their own factions?  and creating their own 'civil war'?  i never played swg,  but im assuming the factions were something that the game developers put into the game.  so do sandboxers want to create their own content?  or do they want the developers to set up the content for them?  it sounds like you want a sandbox with themepark elements.  and not a true sandbox.  (which is fine,  i dont want to seem like im calling you out)  im just generally curious.  there seem to be alot of sandbox proponents on this site.  but there doesnt seem to be a very definitive definition of a sandbox.  in my eyes xyson is a sandbox and swg is closer to themepark.

Well mostly a total lack of people to really have a civil war with, because the game is so lacking in features (toys in the sandbox if you will) that no one except the hardcore crafters stick around for long. (and even not them after a while)

I play EVE which is considered a sandbox style MMO.  I don't craft.  I don't like to craft.  Yet there is just tons of things for me to do in EVE besides craft, while those who enjoy doing it go about their business as well.

That's the mark of a true sandbox in my book, one that has many different things to occupy players time, but no requirement to do any particular activity to succeed.

That part about player created content, not so important, just as long as they can have some meaningful influence in the game world (much like the permanent bases EVE players can set up that never can be destroyed, only change hands)

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
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  tom_gore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1809

 
OP  11/06/12 2:08:20 AM#136

I've tried a lot of the sandbox games mentioned here and sadly, only EVE meets my definition of a quality game. As a gamer with a family my playtime is limited and thus I'd like to spend it in a quality game.

Too bad EVE is, as I mentioned, not my favourite genre and not "personal" enough in the gameplay sense. My avatar is practically a spaceship and I don't want to be a spaceship, I want to be a living person. In fact, I think the best part of EVE was the character creation with its unmatched depth and choices. I really hope WoD comes out some day, even if that is not my favourite genre either. At least I could play a person and not a piece of machinery.

I don't mind game elements in my world, of course not. I loved Skyrim's main questline, but was absolutely amazed by the quality of the hundreds of sidequests (not talking about the radiance kill quests) you can bump into by just looking around and listening the people talk.

And as I said before, I am not too fond of FFA PvP, especially if that's practically the main content of the game (Mortal Online, Darkfall). In Ultima Online it kind of worked, but I still preferred the player faction (guild) based war system, which was quite alive on the Trammel side (at least in the roleplaying communities). I like PvP, but I also like to be able to take a break from it and enjoy the world without constant fear of being ganked. Forcing people to "PvP" (in parenthesis because most of these forced encounters are quite one-sided) is a sure way of alienating a lot of the playerbase. Again, EVE does this brilliantly and you can actually choose from being quite safe to totally unsafe.

I've pledged to Greed Monger, but I'm quite sceptical if they have the resources to pull it off. Really hope they do. ArcheAge is of course also on my radar, as is EQ Next. Maybe we do have hope, as major devs are starting to admit going the WoW route is not very profitable and definitely not the route you want to take if you are hoping for good player retention.

Hell, if you look at the next year or two, we can see many big titles coming out with sandbox elements and very few straight-up themepark MMOs.

Perhaps all we need to do is wait and then vote with our wallets.

 

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16846

11/06/12 2:26:26 AM#137

Cretate a world and just populate it with mobs arent enough. Those mobs must really seems like they are doing their own stuff before a player kills them instead of just standing still and waiting for a npc to kill them.

A living world needs to continue even if no playersare around to see it.

One of the things I also would love to see in a MMO are seasons. Snow in the winter, certain plants you can only harvest in certain time of the year and season specific mobs as well. Since most MMO days are 2 or 4 hours a year would pass soon enough and it would help a lot to make the game feel alive as well. That would make each season 1 or 2 weeks depending on if you have 2 or 4 hours days.

It is not that hard to make the leaves turn red and then fall of the trees or to let snow cover stuff. And yes, it do takes memory and CPU power but it is so worth it. And it would also make interesting possibilities for player owned farms where you saw your seeds in the spring ('cept onions and stuff you plant in the autumn of course) and harvest your mats in the autumn.

I do agree with OP, we need a good sandbox, since UO that genre have been pretty empty with only a few space games worth playing. Personally I would rather have a historical based sandbox than a fantasy one though.

  halflife25

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/12
Posts: 787

11/06/12 3:56:37 AM#138
Originally posted by maddhatter44
Originally posted by halflife25
Originally posted by Kenze
Originally posted by apocoluster
   Disagree.  Give me games.  The real world is plenty enough Sandboxy for me.  I play games to get away from it.

 

^this x100

This x 200.

consoles are filled with games, have fun.

Sorry if i upsset you.

*actually i am not* 

Bwahahahaha!!

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5727

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

11/06/12 4:04:40 AM#139
There's no difference between a "living world" and a world that only seems to be alive.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Neherun

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/07
Posts: 240

11/06/12 4:37:06 AM#140
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Neherun

Its called freedom, that guy wanted you killed, so he killed you.


 

I am sorry to inform you but that is not what freedom is.


Freedom implies there is equal right for those who are unwilling to fight as those who are willing.

That is not what freedom is?

Here's something from dictionary about freedom:

3. the power to determine action without restraint.

 

How does this apply to your argument that those who are unwilling to fight should have the right to refuse the right of combat? If this kind of carebearism starts, that people start to twist the actual words and their terms to defend their ways, mods will soon have a lot of stuff to edit.

 

 

If these kind of arguments

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