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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » EQ next!! who want punishing death?

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261 posts found
  adam_nox

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/31/06
Posts: 2062

11/05/12 5:24:47 PM#21
So many great things that can be in a sandbox game, and this is what people call for?  I just don't get it. 
  JayFiveAlive

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/04/09
Posts: 469

11/05/12 5:26:21 PM#22
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by whiteoak21

I really want  EQnext to be like eq1 but better.

I'm a big fan of punishing death in mmorpg and i really like when our body stayed on the ground.

It increase the feeling of fear that i think is essential in a good immersive game.

i know a lot of people don't like it because you can lose your body and all your stuff.

maybe they should return your corp's after 1 month or make you lose only your accesory (rings,necklace,...)

my top punishing game are (eq1,UO,legend of kesmai,realm of the mad god)

what are you thinking of punishing death?

 

 

Smed has already said their will be a hardcore EQ1 type server with harsher rules than a normal server.

http://www.giantbomb.com/everquest-next-working-title/61-32284/

 

 

That says possibility. That's a maybe :P I'm all for it personally! I hope they have some great PvP like original EQ had as well (I know some didn't like it, but I did heh).

  ThaneUlfgar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/11
Posts: 288

11/05/12 5:26:45 PM#23
I'll pass on the punishing death.
  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

11/05/12 5:31:09 PM#24
Originally posted by Aelious
Rungard

I like that idea. Since your deity given powers are a facet of your overall combat abilities dying and losing them for a time would make you more careful for sure. At the same time it wouldn't stop you altogether like a corpse run would.

/signed

 Basically you get to decide. You can go with all offinsive powers and very harsh penalties ( remember you need to have the rank to use them), or go all protectionist and not really have any powers to use, but i would imagine most players would be somewhere in the middle.

The part i like the best is that it makes sense in eq lore, which i think is critical for all systems.

To keep it interesting they could have it so that you would need to keep your deity alive, thus is a crew of players went to the planes to kill your guy you could accept summons to defend.

Thus if your god gets knocked off, everyone that god has under them loses their powers for a bit. I suppose the god would convert to ethereal after they are taken out and they could only manage rank 1 resurections at that point until they regain their power.

That would be fun.

  CalmOceans

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1815

11/05/12 5:32:47 PM#25

I wouldn't mind some XP loss and needing a resurrection to restore part of it.

What I don't want is the permadeath stuff, just what EQ used to have XP loss, without the current lobby system.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5671

11/05/12 5:34:05 PM#26
Originally posted by adam_nox
So many great things that can be in a sandbox game, and this is what people call for?  I just don't get it. 

Me either.  It makes no sense to me.  Then again I'm pretty out of touch with the average gamer.

The funny thing is I read this nostalgic reminiscing for hardcore death penalties on the forums and how it's so appreciated.  I never recall one person I PK'd in Lineage thanking me afterwards for the challenge and 3 months of xp setback or the 10 mill adena armour drop I got from them.  Not once, ever.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  CalmOceans

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1815

11/05/12 5:36:53 PM#27

XP loss worked well in EQ, that's the reason for me. While losing XP is no fun, what it does mean is that clerics tend to find groups and reliance on other people becomes more important which fosters a lively and strong community.

I am NOT in favor of XP loss just for the sake of some PVP fanatics who want to cause harm onto other players and gloat at the fact they can grief, in fact I don't like PVP at all.

  VooDoo_Papa

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/21/10
Posts: 846

11/05/12 5:38:35 PM#28

completely situational. make a game with extremely challenging mobs where dying is part of the learning process, no thanks.

 

and for the record, any time you use verbage like "punishing" to describe a games mechanics, its gonna turn people off. nobody wants punishing anything in their games. even if you think you want to be punished in a game, im sure youll get over that novelty pretty quick

  darkhalf357x

Elite Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1108

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

11/05/12 5:40:29 PM#29
Originally posted by augustgrace

Well over a decade ago when I was playing UO, I would have agreed with you on punishing death.  But then I had no real responsibilities, plenty of free time, the arrogance of youth, and there weren't many alternatives to compare UO to.  

Older now, with work, a family and a house to take care of, my gaming time is precious and I have no desire to spend that time doing corpse runs or earning back lost gear/exp.  

I even tried going back to UO a couple years ago, and the same activities and penalties I enjoyed years ago, just felt like work.  These days I want to have fun during my gaming sessions.  I don't want to spend my time polishing my e-peen or pursuing grindy activities.

^This ..  For us older gamers its not as attractive of a feature as it once was when we were young.

  Avanah

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 860

11/05/12 5:41:26 PM#30

nt

/100000 char

TGIF...Thank God I'm Female

"Those with the most Opinions tend to have the fewest Facts"

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2393

World > Quest Progression

11/05/12 5:41:52 PM#31
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by adam_nox
So many great things that can be in a sandbox game, and this is what people call for?  I just don't get it. 

Me either.  It makes no sense to me.  Then again I'm pretty out of touch with the average gamer.

The funny thing is I read this nostalgic reminiscing for hardcore death penalties on the forums and how it's so appreciated.  I never recall one person I PK'd in Lineage thanking me afterwards for the challenge and 3 months of xp setback or the 10 mill adena armour drop I got from them.  Not once, ever.

 

Wow, yeah I imagine the reaction was much different .  The idea of having a death penatly system isn't to make your life harder after you die, it's to give you more incentive to not die in the first place.  Similar to the excitement of OWPvP when you're looking over your shoulder.  It needs to be in moderation or an imaginatative addition, such as Rungard is talking about, but I think it could work.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5671

11/05/12 5:42:53 PM#32
Originally posted by rungard
Originally posted by Aelious
Rungard

I like that idea. Since your deity given powers are a facet of your overall combat abilities dying and losing them for a time would make you more careful for sure. At the same time it wouldn't stop you altogether like a corpse run would.

/signed

 Basically you get to decide. You can go with all offinsive powers and very harsh penalties ( remember you need to have the rank to use them), or go all protectionist and not really have any powers to use, but i would imagine most players would be somewhere in the middle.

The part i like the best is that it makes sense in eq lore, which i think is critical for all systems.

To keep it interesting they could have it so that you would need to keep your deity alive, thus is a crew of players went to the planes to kill your guy you could accept summons to defend.

Thus if your god gets knocked off, everyone that god has under them loses their powers for a bit. I suppose the god would convert to ethereal after they are taken out and they could only manage rank 1 resurections at that point until they regain their power.

That would be fun.

I like your ideas because they think outside of the standard "corpse run" box.  I would like to see your ideas with deity integration more than just about death penalties.  It would be cool if deities were part of your character build and progression even if not a cleric.  A paladin wouldn't be a level 0 class as much as a path a fighter or cleric could take in the devotion to their deity.  Different deities might have different paladin versions for example.

Anyway, on the topic.  In one of the zillion fruitless discussions along this line I suggested that when a player dies they actually go to one of the underwold planes and have to fight, quest, and puzzle their way out to prevent an xp loss or some other penalty.  A very rudimentary system could have the death plane be the same for all.  In a more robust and developed system your deity and actions would determine which death plane you would have to return from.  There are a lot of possibilities here: it could be a simple fight your way out.  It could entail quests and battles.  Your party might have the option to join you and help you out of the plane.  Or you could just pay the penalty and respawn immediately.

Anyway as far as the OP version of DP.  No thanks.  Been there, done that.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

11/05/12 5:47:01 PM#33
      I like how EQ handled death in the old days....IT made you respect what was going on around you, and you had to learn how to play (often with others) to stay alive......I'm just not sure if 13 years later the player base would be able to handle it......I jsut dont see todays communities taking time to go help other players like they did with corpse runs in old EQ.
  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1696

11/05/12 5:47:29 PM#34

Players more familiar to modern themepark or even just zoned mmos may not grasp the importance of death penalties in open world sandbox games. It is critical certain systems are in place to avoid issues.

 

My first mmo was Asheron's Call which was one of the largest seemless (more or less) world ever created. PVE and PVP progression are both affected by how death is managed. When a game is nothing but shared play you simply cannot have instant recovery from death. It trivializes pve and makes area control (the primary purpose behind open world pvp) impossible. There absolutely must be a system put in place emulating attrition or you have nothing but endless zerging which affects both pve and pvp especially when both are combined into one and have overlapping effects.

 

AC handled this by binding stones which were only located sparsely and out side of towns but with multiple options to choose from to avoid camping. Upon death you lost items which forced you to run back or suffer greater loss (if not already looted). You also gained a vitae or life penalty you had to work off so if you died many times trying to zerg something you had to give up for a while until you became full strength.

 

Although not all options from AC would be needed (perhaps loot loss may be too hardcore of an option for at least more pve oriented servers for EQNext) but the death penalty in that game solved some serious issues. Players suffered a time penalty (to head back to body), a power reduction penalty (to stop zerging objectives endlessly until they win) and a loss of at least something the player cared about, wants to regain and creates fear of death would should exist in any immersive, world emulating game (be it vitae, xp loss, money or items). There could be many other issues come to light cause by death and the ability to recover from it too fast or too slow. The right balance is required for reason far beyond just penalizing the player for wrong choices.

 

EQNext will be an open world with massive systems synergy and the death penalty will be of the utmost importance. There is no way it will be too "carebear" even for pve and if hardcore options exist I highly expect penalties to be more on the severe side than the light side. When an open and shared world becomes your ultimate resource for advancement in both pve and pvp, denial of area control through death is the only method of player governance outside of politically controlled areas (where pve mechanics could usurp player control ... IE. safe zones).

 

Expect the death penalty to be very detailed and thought out and perhaps even touched upon through player driven political options.

You stay sassy!

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5671

11/05/12 5:48:22 PM#35
Originally posted by Aelious

Wow, yeah I imagine the reaction was much different .  The idea of having a death penatly system isn't to make your life harder after you die, it's to give you more incentive to not die in the first place.  Similar to the excitement of OWPvP when you're looking over your shoulder.  It needs to be in moderation or an imaginatative addition, such as Rungard is talking about, but I think it could work.

Yes, his line of thinking brings something more interesting the table than a boring shallow insta-respawn or corpse run mechanic.  Either extreme end of the spectrum is sort of lazy game design to a degree.

You don't want DPs to be so extreme people stop taking risks and play it safe.  On the other hand you want people to use a little bit of thought and tactics to the combat.  It's a little bit tricky because too much of either end will result in boredom or frustration which is non-productive.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

11/05/12 5:48:23 PM#36
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by rungard
Originally posted by Aelious
Rungard

I like that idea. Since your deity given powers are a facet of your overall combat abilities dying and losing them for a time would make you more careful for sure. At the same time it wouldn't stop you altogether like a corpse run would.

/signed

 Basically you get to decide. You can go with all offinsive powers and very harsh penalties ( remember you need to have the rank to use them), or go all protectionist and not really have any powers to use, but i would imagine most players would be somewhere in the middle.

The part i like the best is that it makes sense in eq lore, which i think is critical for all systems.

To keep it interesting they could have it so that you would need to keep your deity alive, thus is a crew of players went to the planes to kill your guy you could accept summons to defend.

Thus if your god gets knocked off, everyone that god has under them loses their powers for a bit. I suppose the god would convert to ethereal after they are taken out and they could only manage rank 1 resurections at that point until they regain their power.

That would be fun.

I like your ideas because they think outside of the standard "corpse run" box.  I would like to see your ideas with deity integration more than just about death penalties.  It would be cool if deities were part of your character build and progression even if not a cleric.  A paladin wouldn't be a level 0 class as much as a path a fighter or cleric could take in the devotion to their deity.  Different deities might have different paladin versions for example.

Anyway, on the topic.  In one of the zillion fruitless discussions along this line I suggested that when a player dies they actually go to one of the underwold planes and have to fight, quest, and puzzle their way out to prevent an xp loss or some other penalty.  A very rudimentary system could have the death plane be the same for all.  In a more robust and developed system your deity and actions would determine which death plane you would have to return from.  There are a lot of possibilities here: it could be a simple fight your way out.  It could entail quests and battles.  Your party might have the option to join you and help you out of the plane.  Or you could just pay the penalty and respawn immediately.

Anyway as far as the OP version of DP.  No thanks.  Been there, done that.

 I would stick in a system like this at a random percentage when you die. So 2-3% of the time you get the death plane, and the other 98% of the time you get the regular system.

that would keep things interesting.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5671

11/05/12 5:53:52 PM#37
Originally posted by rungard
Originally posted by Torvaldr

I like your ideas because they think outside of the standard "corpse run" box.  I would like to see your ideas with deity integration more than just about death penalties.  It would be cool if deities were part of your character build and progression even if not a cleric.  A paladin wouldn't be a level 0 class as much as a path a fighter or cleric could take in the devotion to their deity.  Different deities might have different paladin versions for example.

Anyway, on the topic.  In one of the zillion fruitless discussions along this line I suggested that when a player dies they actually go to one of the underwold planes and have to fight, quest, and puzzle their way out to prevent an xp loss or some other penalty.  A very rudimentary system could have the death plane be the same for all.  In a more robust and developed system your deity and actions would determine which death plane you would have to return from.  There are a lot of possibilities here: it could be a simple fight your way out.  It could entail quests and battles.  Your party might have the option to join you and help you out of the plane.  Or you could just pay the penalty and respawn immediately.

Anyway as far as the OP version of DP.  No thanks.  Been there, done that.

 I would stick in a system like this at a random percentage when you die. So 2-3% of the time you get the death plane, and the other 98% of the time you get the regular system.

that would keep things interesting.

That makes sense.  Maybe something where the first few setbacks were ligher penalties but the more that stack up then you end up with more severe things to deal with.  Players could atone or go on quests to reset the counter.

I got the idea from Planeshift and Lineage.  In Planeshift when you died you went to the nether realm, but it was just a maze that people had to find their way out of.

In Lineage it was truly brutal.  If you were a rampant PK you would be sent to Hell after 30 "red" PKs.  You went into Hell (an isolated instanced zone where no one could join you) and all the nastiest mobs were there.  You went in naked (at least you didn't lose armour) and had make it through something like 15 minutes.  Many many people went in at level 50 and would come out at less than level 30.  That was brutal.

Anyway, I always thought a more reasonable and interesting version of that would be fun.  It could open up whole adventures to other planes ala PS:Torment and D&D.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

11/05/12 5:55:58 PM#38
Originally posted by Theocritus
      I like how EQ handled death in the old days....IT made you respect what was going on around you, and you had to learn how to play (often with others) to stay alive......I'm just not sure if 13 years later the player base would be able to handle it......I jsut dont see todays communities taking time to go help other players like they did with corpse runs in old EQ.

 

That's why Smed is talking about the chance of an hardcore server, you would not have to choose that server. Quite simple really.

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2524

11/05/12 7:12:49 PM#39

If they want this to be a social game where people take the game world seriously then yeah, a death penalty is a MUST.

I don't want it as severe as early EQ, but certainly nothing like modern WoW clones.

 

DAoC had a fairly good death penalty, where the first few deaths in a given level had a minor penalty, but by the fourth death, you were getting the full effect of the penalty. Recovering your body lessens the penalty somewhat.

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5426

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

11/05/12 7:18:05 PM#40

as long as its not permanent death im OK with any harsh penalty upon dying. In mmos  that dont have death penalty i dont even care about playing my character well because i just revive and keep going. Death penalty would make me cautious on every fight.

Anything with the exception of permadeath is acceptable in my book.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

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