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11/05/12 5:24:47 PM#21
So many great things that can be in a sandbox game, and this is what people call for? I just don't get it.
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11/05/12 5:26:21 PM#22
Originally posted by Rimmersman That says possibility. That's a maybe :P I'm all for it personally! I hope they have some great PvP like original EQ had as well (I know some didn't like it, but I did heh). |
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11/05/12 5:26:45 PM#23
I'll pass on the punishing death.
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11/05/12 5:31:09 PM#24
Originally posted by Aelious Basically you get to decide. You can go with all offinsive powers and very harsh penalties ( remember you need to have the rank to use them), or go all protectionist and not really have any powers to use, but i would imagine most players would be somewhere in the middle. The part i like the best is that it makes sense in eq lore, which i think is critical for all systems. To keep it interesting they could have it so that you would need to keep your deity alive, thus is a crew of players went to the planes to kill your guy you could accept summons to defend. Thus if your god gets knocked off, everyone that god has under them loses their powers for a bit. I suppose the god would convert to ethereal after they are taken out and they could only manage rank 1 resurections at that point until they regain their power. That would be fun. I have to be honest with you. We have completely blown up the design of EverQuest Next. For the last year and a half we have been working on something we are not ready to show. Why did we blow up the design? The design was evolutionary. It was EverQuest III. It was something that was slightly better than what had come before it. It was slightly better.What we are building is something that we will be very proud to call EverQuest. It will be the largest sandbox-style MMO ever designed.--Smed |
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11/05/12 5:32:47 PM#25
I wouldn't mind some XP loss and needing a resurrection to restore part of it. What I don't want is the permadeath stuff, just what EQ used to have XP loss, without the current lobby system. |
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11/05/12 5:34:05 PM#26
Originally posted by adam_nox Me either. It makes no sense to me. Then again I'm pretty out of touch with the average gamer. The funny thing is I read this nostalgic reminiscing for hardcore death penalties on the forums and how it's so appreciated. I never recall one person I PK'd in Lineage thanking me afterwards for the challenge and 3 months of xp setback or the 10 mill adena armour drop I got from them. Not once, ever. |
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11/05/12 5:36:53 PM#27
XP loss worked well in EQ, that's the reason for me. While losing XP is no fun, what it does mean is that clerics tend to find groups and reliance on other people becomes more important which fosters a lively and strong community. I am NOT in favor of XP loss just for the sake of some PVP fanatics who want to cause harm onto other players and gloat at the fact they can grief, in fact I don't like PVP at all. |
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11/05/12 5:38:35 PM#28
completely situational. make a game with extremely challenging mobs where dying is part of the learning process, no thanks.
and for the record, any time you use verbage like "punishing" to describe a games mechanics, its gonna turn people off. nobody wants punishing anything in their games. even if you think you want to be punished in a game, im sure youll get over that novelty pretty quick  |
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darkhalf357x
 Elite Member
Joined: 1/25/12
I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be? |
11/05/12 5:40:29 PM#29
Originally posted by augustgrace ^This .. For us older gamers its not as attractive of a feature as it once was when we were young.  |
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11/05/12 5:41:26 PM#30
nt /100000 char TGIF...Thank God I'm Female "Those with the most Opinions tend to have the fewest Facts" |
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11/05/12 5:41:52 PM#31
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Wow, yeah I imagine the reaction was much different Dear developers, In my humble and inexperienced opinion if I can get through all the content you spent the last 5+ years working on within 6 months you have not done your work justice. Please give me, and everyone else, some tools to create our own content from what you have made so I can stay in your world and appreciate it longer than three weeks before I say "meh". It's a shame and I'd rather not do that to something you put so much of yourself in to. |
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11/05/12 5:42:53 PM#32
Originally posted by rungard I like your ideas because they think outside of the standard "corpse run" box. I would like to see your ideas with deity integration more than just about death penalties. It would be cool if deities were part of your character build and progression even if not a cleric. A paladin wouldn't be a level 0 class as much as a path a fighter or cleric could take in the devotion to their deity. Different deities might have different paladin versions for example. Anyway, on the topic. In one of the zillion fruitless discussions along this line I suggested that when a player dies they actually go to one of the underwold planes and have to fight, quest, and puzzle their way out to prevent an xp loss or some other penalty. A very rudimentary system could have the death plane be the same for all. In a more robust and developed system your deity and actions would determine which death plane you would have to return from. There are a lot of possibilities here: it could be a simple fight your way out. It could entail quests and battles. Your party might have the option to join you and help you out of the plane. Or you could just pay the penalty and respawn immediately. Anyway as far as the OP version of DP. No thanks. Been there, done that. |
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11/05/12 5:47:01 PM#33
I like how EQ handled death in the old days....IT made you respect what was going on around you, and you had to learn how to play (often with others) to stay alive......I'm just not sure if 13 years later the player base would be able to handle it......I jsut dont see todays communities taking time to go help other players like they did with corpse runs in old EQ.
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11/05/12 5:47:29 PM#34
Players more familiar to modern themepark or even just zoned mmos may not grasp the importance of death penalties in open world sandbox games. It is critical certain systems are in place to avoid issues.
My first mmo was Asheron's Call which was one of the largest seemless (more or less) world ever created. PVE and PVP progression are both affected by how death is managed. When a game is nothing but shared play you simply cannot have instant recovery from death. It trivializes pve and makes area control (the primary purpose behind open world pvp) impossible. There absolutely must be a system put in place emulating attrition or you have nothing but endless zerging which affects both pve and pvp especially when both are combined into one and have overlapping effects.
AC handled this by binding stones which were only located sparsely and out side of towns but with multiple options to choose from to avoid camping. Upon death you lost items which forced you to run back or suffer greater loss (if not already looted). You also gained a vitae or life penalty you had to work off so if you died many times trying to zerg something you had to give up for a while until you became full strength.
Although not all options from AC would be needed (perhaps loot loss may be too hardcore of an option for at least more pve oriented servers for EQNext) but the death penalty in that game solved some serious issues. Players suffered a time penalty (to head back to body), a power reduction penalty (to stop zerging objectives endlessly until they win) and a loss of at least something the player cared about, wants to regain and creates fear of death would should exist in any immersive, world emulating game (be it vitae, xp loss, money or items). There could be many other issues come to light cause by death and the ability to recover from it too fast or too slow. The right balance is required for reason far beyond just penalizing the player for wrong choices.
EQNext will be an open world with massive systems synergy and the death penalty will be of the utmost importance. There is no way it will be too "carebear" even for pve and if hardcore options exist I highly expect penalties to be more on the severe side than the light side. When an open and shared world becomes your ultimate resource for advancement in both pve and pvp, denial of area control through death is the only method of player governance outside of politically controlled areas (where pve mechanics could usurp player control ... IE. safe zones).
Expect the death penalty to be very detailed and thought out and perhaps even touched upon through player driven political options. |
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11/05/12 5:48:22 PM#35
Originally posted by Aelious Yes, his line of thinking brings something more interesting the table than a boring shallow insta-respawn or corpse run mechanic. Either extreme end of the spectrum is sort of lazy game design to a degree. You don't want DPs to be so extreme people stop taking risks and play it safe. On the other hand you want people to use a little bit of thought and tactics to the combat. It's a little bit tricky because too much of either end will result in boredom or frustration which is non-productive. |
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11/05/12 5:48:23 PM#36
Originally posted by Torvaldr I would stick in a system like this at a random percentage when you die. So 2-3% of the time you get the death plane, and the other 98% of the time you get the regular system. that would keep things interesting. I have to be honest with you. We have completely blown up the design of EverQuest Next. For the last year and a half we have been working on something we are not ready to show. Why did we blow up the design? The design was evolutionary. It was EverQuest III. It was something that was slightly better than what had come before it. It was slightly better.What we are building is something that we will be very proud to call EverQuest. It will be the largest sandbox-style MMO ever designed.--Smed |
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11/05/12 5:53:52 PM#37
Originally posted by rungard That makes sense. Maybe something where the first few setbacks were ligher penalties but the more that stack up then you end up with more severe things to deal with. Players could atone or go on quests to reset the counter. I got the idea from Planeshift and Lineage. In Planeshift when you died you went to the nether realm, but it was just a maze that people had to find their way out of. In Lineage it was truly brutal. If you were a rampant PK you would be sent to Hell after 30 "red" PKs. You went into Hell (an isolated instanced zone where no one could join you) and all the nastiest mobs were there. You went in naked (at least you didn't lose armour) and had make it through something like 15 minutes. Many many people went in at level 50 and would come out at less than level 30. That was brutal. Anyway, I always thought a more reasonable and interesting version of that would be fun. It could open up whole adventures to other planes ala PS:Torment and D&D. |
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11/05/12 5:55:58 PM#38
Originally posted by Theocritus That's why Smed is talking about the chance of an hardcore server, you would not have to choose that server. Quite simple really.  |
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11/05/12 7:12:49 PM#39
If they want this to be a social game where people take the game world seriously then yeah, a death penalty is a MUST. I don't want it as severe as early EQ, but certainly nothing like modern WoW clones.
DAoC had a fairly good death penalty, where the first few deaths in a given level had a minor penalty, but by the fourth death, you were getting the full effect of the penalty. Recovering your body lessens the penalty somewhat. |
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rojo6934
 Elite Member
Joined: 8/13/09
"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli |
11/05/12 7:18:05 PM#40
as long as its not permanent death im OK with any harsh penalty upon dying. In mmos that dont have death penalty i dont even care about playing my character well because i just revive and keep going. Death penalty would make me cautious on every fight. Anything with the exception of permadeath is acceptable in my book. "in peace, in sleep under the barren, abandoned soil"
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. The idea of having a death penatly system isn't to make your life harder after you die, it's to give you more incentive to not die in the first place. Similar to the excitement of OWPvP when you're looking over your shoulder. It needs to be in moderation or an imaginatative addition, such as Rungard is talking about, but I think it could work.
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